File Sharing

Wallace Wang (Courtesy No Starch Press)

Wallace Wang, author of "Steal This File-Sharing Book" was online on Wednesday, Nov. 17, at 1 p.m. ET.

A transcript follows.

Wang is a former contributor to Boardwatch Magazine. He is also a stand-up comic who has appeared on A&E's "Evening at the Improv" and appears regularly at the Riviera Comedy Club in Las Vegas. Wang is the author of "Steal This Computer Book."

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

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washingtonpost.com: Wally, thanks for joining us. What's your reaction to yesterday's announcement by the movie industry that it would follow the recording industry and use lawsuits to fight piracy? Hollywood Sues Suspected Movie Pirates (washingtonpost.com Nov. 16, 2004)

Wallace Wang: Lawsuits targeting individuals serve primarily as a "fear" factor to get people to stop file sharing, but it will never stop it. It may deter casual users, but most likely it just drives people to use other file sharing technologies. When the recording industry targeted Kazaa users, most users simply abandoned Kazaa and started using alternatives like BitTorrent and eDonkey.

So if the movie industry is going to start suing individuals, they'll catch the more ignorant users blissfully sharing movies, but they won't catch the tech-savvy, hard-core file sharers who are the principle threat to the movie industry. Just as the recording industry's lawsuits wound up catching 78-year old grandfathers and 12 year old girls who didn't now any better, so will the movie industry's lawsuits likely target other clueless individuals while not deterring the hard-core file sharers one bit.

In short, lawsuits should be one tool used by the recording and movie industry, but it should be targeted to people who profit off file sharing, not just random individuals. Targeting individuals is like focusing your attention to catching people making individual copies of DVDs that they rent from Blockbuster while ignoring the bigger threat, the video pirates, who distribute and sell bogus copies of DVDs worldwide.

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Fairfax, Va.: An online comment regarding your book says it could be considered contraband in some regimes. Why's that?

Wallace Wang: The problem is that any country can designate anything they wish as "contraband." In America, certain encryption algorithms are considered contraband although those same encryption algorithms are freely available outside the USA. So contraband is just anything that one government decides they don't like.

In particular, my book discusses ways to share files, which countries may not like such as Saudi Arabia or China because not only can file sharing technology be used to share copyrighted material like music or movies, but it can also be used to share, anonymously, banned books that governments don't want their citizens to read.

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Winslow, N.J.: Do you think that the movie studios are jumping the gun by suing suspected music pirates? Or is it the right thing to do to jump out in front of this problem?

Wallace Wang: I think the movie industry lawsuits should be just one tool used to deter copyright theft. The problem is that the real threat to their business are video pirates and not necessary file sharers. File sharers just happen to be an easy and prominent target, so by targeting file sharers, the movie industry can put on a good show and claim they're protecting copyrights when video pirates are stealing their movies and causing them to lose millions a year, while file sharer are causing them to lose much less a year.

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Washington, D.C.: Wallace, is there any reason to believe that Bittorrent will get shut down or criminalized & tracked like so many of its predecessors (Napster, Gnutella)? Won't creative people alway find ways to pass bits around the 'net regardless of how many pipes get blocked?

Wallace Wang: The main reason Napster got shut down was because they routed every file request through a central server, which made Napster liable for anything done over their networks. BitTorrent and newer file sharing networks are decentralized, so the file sharing networks can avoid responsibility for what goes on. Since the movie industry can't sue the file sharing networks, they're targeting individuals instead.

So yes, creative people will just find a new way to share files. If the movie industry targets too many BitTorrent users, people will just flock to another file sharing network such as eDonkey or DirectConnect. Lawsuits will just keep forcing people to move from one file sharing network to another, but it won't stop it.

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Fairfax, Va.: If I buy a book, magazine, newspaper, CD or DVD and loan it to a friend, how is that fundamentally different from sharing online an electronic copy I own?

Second, if I buy a DVD movie and allow several members of my family to watch it in my home at the same time, how is that different from sharing online a digital copy?

Is the industry asserting that I cant sell my used CDs and DVDs to anyone I chose?

Is the industry asserting that I don't really own a copy of an electronic information item like a DVD after I pay for it?

Wallace Wang: The main difference between loaning a book, CD, or DVD to a friend compared to file sharing is that file sharing allows rapid distribution of a file while loaning an item to a friend does not. Personal loans of books or CDs is technically illegal, but the threat is so miniscule that it's not worth enforcing any laws to sue people for loaning stuff to each other. File sharing is a bigger threat since it can reach so many people so quickly.

Basically, the industry is asserting that you do own the CD, DVD that you buy, but you don't have permission to duplicate the contents of that CD or DVD. So you can sell used CDs and DVDs, but you can't sell copies of that same CD. or DVD.

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Toronto, Ont., Canada: I've noticed a growing trend on the Internet in downloading high-definition TV shows. The files are generally smaller than ripped and compressed DVDs and there seem to be many more people sharing them on BitTorrent sites.

How seriously does the industry have to view this threat? Will broadcast flags end digital TV piracy?

Wallace Wang: I doubt that any technical solution, like broadcast flags, will end any form of piracy. Technical solutions can only solve technical problems, and file sharing is a social problem more than a technical one. The movie industry sees Bittorrent and eDonkey networks as a definite threat and they want to stop this file sharing before it gets out of hand like the music industry.

More people are sharing movies and TV shows because more people have broadband connections to make the process easier. The movie industry sees the music industry's problems as their problems now.

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Philadelphia: I tried to steal the book, but I couldn't get it past security. Would you please post it on the Internet so I may just print it out for free?

Wallace Wang: I'm sure someone will eventually scan and post the book on the Internet. In fact, my book shows specific web sites that will tell you exactly what you need to do to do just that.

I actually requested that the publisher post the book online for free publicity and advertising, but right now publishers are still squeamish about file sharing and they want to protect their profits first, which is understandable. Still, file sharing can often help publicize a book, recording artist, or movie just as much as it can hurt sales too, so file sharing is definitely a double-edged sword.

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Greenfield, Mass.: It seems to me that one of the major ways to stop downloading of files is to stop sending out advanced copies to radio stations and internet reviewer's. Most of the stuff I've seen in these groups are from advanced copies. I know record companies will never stop this program because it gets their artists played quicker than some small label that can't afford to send out all these free copies. Have they given any thought to using a dual layer type disc with a second layer that would scramble the music or add high pitched tones to the tracks if it is copied. Also most people are unwilling to shell out $16 bucks for a disc that might have one or two goods songs on them, what ever happened to classic albums they pander to much to the kids and don't keep an eye on their talent and to ensure that the buying public gets better product. Maybe that's why the "Now" CD's sell so many copies because the kids can get there hits all in one place. Instead of going after pirates they should spend more time on quality over quantity.

Wallace Wang: One of the biggest problems with file sharing isn't that individuals are causing the majority of the damage, but insiders within the industry are leaking material over the INternet first. So all these lawsuits targeting individuals masks part of the real problem, which is that the recording and movie industry's own employees are stealing from their employers. Naturally, you won't find too many companies like 20th Century Fox or MGM making a big issue out of suing their own workers, but they will make a big issue about suing some random individual on the Internet.

The insider threat is more of a threat than file sharing individuals since insiders can get material first.

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Double Standard, Mich.: The MPAA has piled on along with the RIAA in suing people who swap music online. Meanwhile, the industries are pushing hard for even stiffer copyright rules. Where does it all end? Do you think they'll eventually scare file-swappers into submission?

Wallace Wang: Lawsuits are meant to scare file sharers into submission but it usually just drives them into alternate file sharing networks. What most lawsuits are ignoring completely are the IRC and Usenet newsgroup methods of file sharing, both of which I cover in my book. With IRC and newsgroups, you can find lots of the latest music and movies without the threat of lawsuits from the recording or movie industry. The big difference is that IRC and newsgroups are harder to use and by their technical nature, you can't request and search for files you want but just have to accept what happens to be offered at the moment. So IRC and newsgroups will alway be a minor way for people to share files, but it will always be another way to share files that the industries will likely never target.

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Vienna, Va.: Seems like it's been a while since a new, high-profile virus was reported. How safe is the current file-sharing environment?

Wallace Wang: The biggest problem with file sharing is not just viruses but spyware. Since file sharing programs are usually free to encourage more people to use them and thus share more files, the companies make their money by elling spyware-infected programs, or spyware-free versions that cost you money. Spyware just goes to show that the real threat isn't coming from virus writers or hackers, but from legitimate companies hiring and using virus writing and hacking techniques to make money through spyware, spam, etc.

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Washington, D.C.: Wasn't this battle already fought once? Back when audio tapes and VHS were popular, the movie and recording industries bemoaned how the pirates were stealing millions and would eventually destroy the system. Seems like their profits have kept growing, the quality of product has DECREASED, and they find new ways to squeeze out more money from the consumer...

Wallace Wang: Yes, this battle has been fought over and over again. When VHS came out, the movie industry screamed that it would cost them profits, and it wound up making them more money as an alternate market. So if the industry were smart, they'd focus on profiting off file sharing while shutting down illegal file sharing.

The rock group Queen recently collected the best bootleg recordings from their concerts and is selling them over their web site. In this case, the bootleggers illegally recorded Queen's concerts, but Queen is profiting off their work by offering the best bootlegs for a price. So in a sense, Queen is profiting off file sharing and the file sharers.

File sharing is a new opportunity and the industry needs to take advantage of this opportunity or risk dying.

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Washington, D.C.: If you're against lawsuits, how would you suggest the movie industry protect its intellectual property, especially bearing in mind that in a few short years, filesharing will be faster and easier, therefore more widespread? They have to protect their profits somehow.

Wallace Wang: I didn't say I was against lawsuits. I'm against lawsuits that don't target the real problem, and the real problem are insiders stealing stuff and pirates outside the industry stealing and distributing stuff. Individuals are a minor threat and lawsuits targeting them are useful only in letting the public know that the industry is serious about protecting their copyrights. However, the industry needs to focus more on targeting the big pirates and not the individuals. Stopping a 13 year old kid from file sharing protects copyrights less than focusing on nabbing a video pirate in Asia or Mexico who sells millions of dollars worth of illegal DVDs.

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washingtonpost.com: Wally, tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to write about file sharing.

Wallace Wang: I got involved with file sharing simply because it was somewhat related to my broader interest in computer hacking. The whole technological arms race between file sharers and the recording industry is similar to virus writers vs. anti-virus companies. It's interesting to see how people take sides and studying both the legal and illegal ways to use various technology.

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the Queen example: Great move by Queen - that's sticking it to the boots, and in a fitting fashion. Reminds me of U2 playing Helter Skelter when Bono sez - Charles Manson stole this song from the Beatles. We're stealing it back.

Is anyone else doing anything like that that you know of?

Wallace Wang: I know the band Phish encourages their fans to share their concert recordings simply because they know they can't stop it and it helps publicize the band's music. You can either waste energy trying to stop what can't be stopped, or you can embrace it and take advantage of it. I'm sure Phish fans are happy with the band's official decision and that good will indirectly contributes to Phish's bank account in the form of actual album sales. Whether Phish would be better off banning concert recordings or not is a question that can never be answered since we can never go back in time and run simultaneous experiments to see if they would have made more or less money by allowing free concert recordings to be swapped over the Internet. But we do know that allowing fans to share concert recordings has generated good will among their fans, and that's something positive for them.

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Takoma Park: Hi,

Kazaa users were sued, as I understand it, for offering music files for sharing, not for actually downloading someone's else's music. This was because you can only see who is offering files through Kazaa. Is there a filesharing network that remains invisible entirely to industry surveillance?

Wallace Wang: There is no 100% way to hide yourself over the Internet. It's just a matter of risk. One file sharing network called EarthStation 5, is physically located in Palestine, so if any American record company executive wants to visit Palestine and serve a lawsuit while dodging car bombs and suicide bombers, they can go right ahead and try.

EarthStation 5 also uses encryption to attempt to mask user IP addresses and the files they're sharing, and also uses proxy servers to mask IP addresses of users. This still won't guarantee your anonymity but it helps protect you a little bit anyway than someone who isn't trying to hide their IP address.

Given a choice between trying to unmask one file sharer's IP address or pick on an easier target, can you guess what the industry would rather do?

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Washington, D.C.: It will be interesting to see what effect this new round of lawsuits will have on P2P networking. Will P2P networking be pushed further underground to "members only" communities such as DirectConnect or will file-sharing take a step backwards in time and see a reemergence of Usenet as a primary source of information?

Wallace Wang: Lawsuits just push users to other file sharing networks. So while DirectConnect and Usenet may thrive, someone will just come up with a new file sharing network that people will flock to, which will then get sued later anyway so users will keep moving from one network to another.

I don't see Usenet or DirectConnect gaining large amount amounts of users since both are still too cumbersome for most people to use compared to Kazaa or eDonkey.

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Arlington, Va.: Do you incorporate copyright law and file sharing into your comedy routine? Is this even possible without alienating an audience?

Wallace Wang: No, since most people don't understand copyright law. The safest way to avoid alienating audiences in comedy clubs is to go for cheap laughs by using lots of profanity and sexual innuendoes. If you just say the F-word, you can get laughs.

I filmed a comedy TV show recently where the producers banned my following joke:

The water is so bad down in Mexico that even Mexican dogs are crossing the border so they can drink out of a toilet in America.

Yet on that same show, the producers thought is was perfectly appropriate for another comedian to get on stage, talk about how his girlfriend gives him oral sex, then physically demonstrate pushing an imaginary head to his groin while he rocks his hips back and forth and moans with pleasure. And yet they censored my joke. Figure that one out.

I'd love to talk about comedy in depth since most comedians are hacks who only use profanity and sexual innuendoes to get a cheap laugh since they can't get laughs any other way by actually being funny, and comedy club audiences are now trained not to laugh at anything that requires thinking, but this is way off the file sharing topic, but just something interesting to note.

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Crackfork Brogue, Idaho: I'm unfamiliar with your work and have not read your book. How did you make this transformation from comic to copyright expert? Or are these two things the same?

Wallace Wang: I'm not necessarily a copyright expert, just a freelance writer reporting on file sharing and the problems with copyright infringement and protection. Just because somebody writes a book doesn't necessarily make them an expert on anything; it just means they published a book.

So in my book, I'm trying to get people to look at both sides of the issue and recognize that file sharing can be illegal, but it can also be a new revenue source too if you're creative.

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utica, ny: I'm happy that you're on washingtonpost.com today but I am utterly in the dark about your qualifications to speak on this subject any more than, say, me. How did you get into this line of expertise?

Wallace Wang: You're right. I may not be any more qualified than you or anyone else in the forum to discuss file sharing and copyright infringement, but the only reason I'm here and you're not is that I wrote a book, that's it. Remember, the people you see as authorities aren't always there because they're the best people but because they happened to know the right way to get the job through contacting the right people. Think of George Bush. Enough said.

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Omaha, Neb.: Why is all of the attention focused on file-sharing networks and not other forms of infringement? Usenet, for example, is one place where alot of digital content exists. Will it eventually be scrutinized and the Uuencode or yenc file posters sued?

Wallace Wang: File sharing gets all the attention since it's easy and fast. Usenet is more cumbersome and inconvenient to use so it gets less publicity. As a result, Usenet will likely escape the wrath of the industry so they can focus on file sharing networks instead.

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contraband follow: The encryption is not contraband inside America - it's only if it ends up being exported outside America when it's beyond a certain strength.

Incidentally, is this 1998? I haven't heard word one about this encryption discussion since then, probably because it's a dead letter. Or am I wrong about this in thinking that no one cares any longer?

Wallace Wang: You're right. Encryption being exported is contraband, not just having it. That's why software companies had to sell domestic and international versions of their encryption programs. I'm not sure why more people don't talk about encryption restrictions any more. It seems after the government created AES, everyone in AMerica could start exporting AEs strong encryption so I'm not sure if the law now allows it or if people just aren't enforcing it, or maybe people just stopped caring about it because nobody seems to be enforcing it as much as before.

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Philadelphia, PA: Aren't there also ways for companies to use file sharing legitimately to share info inside their organizations? you only hear about the illegal consumer activity. Do corporate file sharing systems have the same risks and/or security threats?

Wallace Wang: Many companies are creating private p2p systems for secure corporate communication, so that's an example of how file sharing technology can be useful without being illegal. Corporate file sharing networks don't risk the same threats as public ones since private networks can't be scrutinized by the recording industry. Of course, if a bunch of employees decide to share the latest Madonna or Britney Spear video or songs over a private corporate p2p network, there's nothing to stop them from doing so.

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Alexandria VA: What's your understanding of the law under consideration in Congress to rewrite "fair use" laws? There is even rumors that the law would make it illegal to fast forward a DVD or video past the commercials?!; How could they enforce something like that? Put kids and their parents into jail for zapping commercials?

Wallace Wang: "Fair use" laws can be interpreted in so many ways that it depends more on the judge than on the law itself. No matter what laws they create, the law itself will be useless if people just ignore it, much like people bring drugs to rock concerts or serve underage kids alcohol in college fraternities. Technically, that's all illegal but nobody really enforces those laws. So "fair use" law will be less important than the reaction of people in obeying and enforcing that law.

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washingtonpost.com: We're out of time for this discussion. Thanks to Wally Wang and everyone who submitted questions.

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