Judea Pearl, a Jew raised in Israel and the father of slain journalist Daniel Pearl and Akbar Ahmed, a Muslim raised in Pakistan, are trying to change the world, one public conversation at a time.
Post staff writer Paula Span, whose article about the joint effort of Ahmed and Pearl appeared in yesterday's Washington Post Magazine, was online Monday, Aug. 2, at 2 p.m. ET to field questions and comments about the article.
Span is a Magazine staff writer.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
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Paula Span: Thanks for joining us today to talk about the relationship between Muslims and Jews and the Pearl/Ahmed dialogue. Professor Pearl also plans to be online from his home in California, and Professor Ahmed from his daughter's home in the UK, where he's been visiting. They may chime in to add a comment or respond to a question. Your comments are already arriving, so let's dive in.
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Washington, DC:
Hi Paula. That was a really nice article. I just wanted to add some commentary to the views on Muslim-Jewish relationships in the US.
Most muslims who grew up in the US or have lived here long have a deep respect for Jews (religious or secular) perhaps more so than other peoples. Many so called 'moderate muslims' point to the Jewish integration into American society as a model to be followed. I've even heard this in religious sermons. Needless to say, you probably won't see this in the media because it isn't as 'sensationalist' as anti-semitic talk.
Also, muslims recognize that culturally and religiously Jews are like them. In college, a group of muslims would eat mainly in the dining hall at the Jewish center because the kosher food there was closer to the religious diet required than the food in the required dining hall. In turn, the Jewish students accomodated us, invited us for their Friday meals and even organized special meals for us at certain times. Of course again, you wouldn't likely hear about this although you would hear about a situation of Jews and Muslims going against each other in a particular college.
Its refreshing to read an article like this about events which would otherwise be mostly ignored. Thanks.
Paula Span: Thanks. I'm sure there are lots of small-scale examples of Muslim and Jewish cooperation and friendship that tend to get lost amid the global tensions and rancor. The US is a reasonably good model of interfaith tolerance, even now when the post 9/11 fear and mistrust affects attitudes towards Muslims. But one difference is that here, both Muslims and Jews are minorities and need allies. In Muslim countries and in the one Jewish nation, religion and government power are intertwined and can lead to very different attitudes.
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Fairfax, Va.:
I admire the charity of Mr. and Mrs. Pearl, but do not feel hopeful. I lived in Saudi Arabia until recently, and witnessed a level of religious bigotry and ignorance that can barely be described. Hatred of Jews is openly expressed, newspaper articles and cartoons depict the worst stereotypes, ridiculous fatwas are issued (for example, banning Pokemon cards because they contain six-pointed stars, taken to indicate a Japanese Jewish conspiracy to addict Moslem youths to gambling).
These attitudes are prevalent throughout the society, not just among the Islamist extremists. I heard them coming from, among others, educated wealthy women, some of whom were US citizens.
I will not detail here the anti-Christian obscenities hurled at me and my children, particularly by the religious police. Suffice to say, until Moslems are willing to take a hard look at their own beliefs and behaviors, criticize themselves, doubt themselves, learn about other religions and mindsets, I cannot imagine peace between them and any non-Moslems who have the misfortune to live near them.
Paula Span: It sounds ugly, indeed, but Saudi Arabia is a particularly closed and nondemocratic society with a particular strain of Islam. You might experience similarly dismaying attitudes in other countries, but you might also find more tolerance; it's difficult to generalize from one Muslim society to another, and even between regions and cities in the same Muslim country.
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Bethesda, Md.:
I probably will not feel as much agony and grief due to the loss, due to natural causes, of one my own child as I did for the murder of Mr. Daniel Pearl. No amount of dialogue will bring the change in the behavior and psyche of the followers of faith of Islam. Cite me one instance in the history of the world, where Moslems have lived in peace with non-Moslems thru dialogue. They hate Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, ET. Al. As long as they follow the violent teachings of Koran, blindly, nothing will change. And no Moslem dares to change/modify the teaching of Koran. The consequences are deadly. However, some Moslem hypocritical scholars love to put forward their spin on the issue of Islam being a religion of peace. So please do not waste your time. But what a father in grief, under the circumstances, will not do to keep his son's memory alive. I commend Mr. Judea Pearl and Mr. Akbar Ahmed for trying.
Paula Span: They would have an easier time of it, I think, if people would cite facts rather than stereotypes. There are several errors in your statement. Muslims and non-Muslims have lived together reasonably peaceably in many parts of the world. Medieval Spain is the most commonly-cited example, but Jewish communities flourished for years in virtually every Muslim capital.
The Koran contains some bellicose passages and many others urging peaceful behavior -- and this is true of many religions' scriptures, including the Bible. Moreover, Muslims have spoken out and demonstrated against extremist interpretations of the Koran. A number of Islamic leaders condemned, for instance, the September 11 attacks as contrary to Islam.
It's true that the voices of moderates tend to get drowned out by the extremists sometimes, but their task grows more difficult when non-Muslims write off a quarter of the world's population as dangerous fanatics. I think we know better than that.
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Washington, DC:
How much have Ariel Sharon's policies and the Bush Administration's unflinching support of these policies contributed to the seemingly explosive hatred that Arabs around the world now seem to have for both Jews and Americans alike?
I sense, from reading many articles on the subject, that the Arabs feel there is no international law to protect Palestinian families from collective punishment as long as the U.S. just sits back doing nothing to influence Sharon and then vetoing any resolution that requires Israel to stop.
The extremists on both sides seem to be calling all the shots, and Arabs see the U.S. politicians as being too worried about upsetting AIPAC and the American Jewish Community before the November elections to try to do anything to force it in a different direction.
Do you feel that Arabs and Jews will only become tolerant of each other once peace in the Middle East is achieved?
Paula Span: There's no question that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a major sticking point in trying to reclaim the discussion from extremists, and that US support for Israel is central. But this is not the only matter fueling hatred against either Jews or Americans -- in his book "Islam Under Siege," Akbar Ahmed points out that globalization and modernization themselves have created dislocation and disruption that allows religious zealotry to grow. A solution in the Middle East would do a great deal to strengthen the forces of tolerance, though -- and such forces do, already, exist.
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Washington, D.C.:
How are Mariane and Adam doing? What has Mariane been doing lately -- aside from raising Adam, of course?
Paula Span: She published a very fine book called "A Mighty Heart", has spoken on campuses, and is considering what sort of writing projects or other work to turn her attention to. Adam just celebrated his second birthday. My sense, from meeting her briefly, is that they are doing remarkably well under the circumstances.
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Paula Span: By the way, those interested in working towards tolerance and understanding, through the dialogue or through other projects, may want to learn more about the Daniel Pearl Foundation. The website is www.danielpearl.org
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Arlington, Va.:
Hi Paula -- I found the article yesterday to be very moving.
I'll admit that I know very little about either religion, so forgive me if I have my facts wrong. I was under the impression that the Muslim religion acknowledges the legitimacy of the Old Testament, which is also the basis for the Jewish faith. If this is true, what impression do Muslims have of the Jew's religious claim to Israel, and claim of being God's chosen people? If they accept the legitimacy of the Old Testament, wouldn't they also support this claim, at least in theory?
Paula Span: Islam does honor the Old and New Testaments, yes. But how religious texts are interpreted (and of course that itself changes over time) is always key to how religious differences play out in the contemporary world.
You will find any number of Jews, in Israel and outside it, who don't believe that God's promise to Abraham justifies a particular policy or a particular set of borders. And I believe -- and I hope Dr. Ahmed will elaborate on this -- that Islam also provides a basis for thinking that this part of the world belongs to Muslims.
I don't think we will get terribly far trying to find answers to the Middle East conundrum in scripture. This is a political and territorial issue and was seen that way for most of the years of the conflict. Turning it into a religious issue is something relatively new, and dangerous.
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Washington DC:
I'd like to respond to Fairfax. Specifically I would ask this person to take the following sentence they wrote: "Suffice to say, until Moslems are willing to take a hard look at their own beliefs and behaviors, criticize themselves, doubt themselves, learn about other religions and mindsets, I cannot imagine peace between them and any non-Moslems who have the misfortune to live near them." and substitute the word "Christian" for the word "Moslem" and then ask themselves whether it comes across as a balanced statement. As a Muslim, I felt Fairfax's statment painted all Muslims with the same brush while Fairfax felt that she or he was subjected to the same broad-brush treatment in Saudi. Those who are themselves targets of religious bigotry ought to avoid making ugly statments like the one Fairfax made.
Paula Span: It's always problematic to generalize from one's own encounters to an entire region, faith, or society. Yet I don't think we need to ignore our own experiences, either. Fairfax reported on an experience that is worth paying attention to -- but it's a part of the story, not the whole story.
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Washington, D.C.:
I'm sorry to hear the sentiment of the individual from Fairfax. I've heard stories from many other Christians living in Saudi Arabia who had different experiences. I guess the point of learning to live without prejudice is to understand that no one experience or encounter can define an entire population. That is exactly the strength of what Mr. Pearl and Mr. Ahmed are doing - understanding each other as human beings, as "two grandfathers", and sharing that understanding with other people.
By saying no one can live in peace with Muslims until Muslims begin to shed their ignorance, Fairfax is, well, unfair, at least in branding an entire group. As a Muslim growing up in America, I've encountered my share of ignorance about Islam here. I, for one, feel hopeful about these "two grandfathers'" efforts - I believe that change can only come from small "drops" like these, and have more faith in them than in national politics. In college, I was part of a Muslim-Jewish women's dialogue group, in which we started with the promise to avoid all political discussion. And we discovered so much about each other - not only about our faiths, but about us as women - that we had in common. Even though the group didn't last, the lessons learned will always stay with me. I hope Pearl and Ahmed carry their presentation across the country, and help Muslims, Christians, Jews and all others shed their ignorance.
Paula Span: Here's a more eloquent response than mine. Thanks for telling us about your group.
By the way, the experience of American Christians and Jews is an impressive template for what dialogue can accomplish. Through most of the history of Christianity in Europe, relationships with Jews were extremely ugly -- rampant anti-Semitism, discrimination, pogroms, the Holocaust. In the US in the 1960's, after the Second Vatican Council undertook a serious effort at reconciliation between the Catholic Church and other religions, many communities began dialogues. And relationships between American Jews and Christians are probably better today than those two groups have ever known in their mutual history. This happened without government edicts or programs; it took place congregation by congregation, diocese by diocese, group by group and person by person. It provides some hope that if there are more Pearls and Ahmeds, in this country but also abroad, the current state of affairs between Muslims and Jews can also change.
But a solution in the Middle East is also critical.
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Vienna, Va.:
How did Pearl feel the first time he met Ahmed. Why and how did he take on a social conscious role?
Paula Span: Actually, Pearl met Ahmed some months before their first dialogue. Pearl is always looking for moderate Muslims who will work with the Daniel Pearl Foundation -- he's the president -- and a prominent Jewish leader had told him about Ahmed. They spoke for a while at American University, discussed what they might do together. But nothing concrete emerged until that first Muslim/Jewish dialogue in Pittsburgh last year.
I think they have a great deal of respect for one another. (By the way -- Washington-area readers -- the Pearl/Ahmed dialogue is coming to Baltimore this fall. Stay tuned.)
Ahmed has been in the spotlight for years; he engaged in interfaith dialogues when he was teaching in Britain, for instance. But Pearl comes to it more recently, because he thinks the best, most effective revenge for the loss of his son is to combat the hatred that spawns fanatics.
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Bethesda, Md.:
Thank you Paula for bringing this ray of hope to our attention. I wrote the letter to the editor copied to you yesterday. I have to agree that each Muslim country has a different attitude just as not all Catholic countries are the same. I remember my Father telling me of how my Great-grandfather, a Tunisian Muslim, was a 50-50 partner with a Tunisian Jew in a successful olive oil company in the 1940s in Tunisia. However, Muslims like me do need to say that the killing of innocents can not and is not justified by Islam. What is at times frustrating is that it is difficult to be heard as every act of terror by a nut is much louder. That is why the coverage of this dialogue is nice.
Paula Span: I do think we in the media have a role to play here. We can't turn away from reporting on violence and mistrust -- it's there, it's real and it has lethal consequences -- but we can help explain that enmity between Jews and Muslims is not historically the norm, as your Tunisian great-grandfather's experience shows. And we can report on what moderates and ordinary citizens say and think, not just leaders and not just extremists. The Post does do this, but we can all do more.
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Bethesda, Md.:
I think what Pearl and Ahmed are doing is so crucial - I wish we had an army of them instead of some of the armies we now have. The latter have historically been ineffective at solving the real underlying problem, which is ignorance and misunderstanding.
So far the Bush administration has focussed 100% on a military "solution" to the "terrorism problem". His framework for dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian situation seems to come from a similar place. From talking with your subjects did you get a sense what they would like to see governments doing to try to build bridges? If so, what was it?
Paula Span: Every time a prominent American -- whether a government official or a well-known televangelist, or a prominent pundit like Ann Coulter -- says something ignorant or hateful about Islam, the remark shoots around the world like a rocket. Next day, people are reading about it in Teheran and Jakarta and shaking their heads about Americans. On the other hand, Ahmed gives President Bush credit for inviting Islamic leaders to the White House and visiting a mosque. These actions speak, too.
But I doubt they speak louder than bombs. The war in Iraq, whatever one thinks of it, is making it harder for those in many countries trying to "build bridges," as you say. Real progress may depend on a cessation of violence both there and in Israel and Palestine.
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Pittsburgh, Pa.:
It is very easy to say that "there is no hope" or "things will never change." In effect, that relieves us as individuals of the responsibility to get involved as change agents for the better. It is a way of saying it is not my problem.
The fact is that each one of us has the ability to reach across lines and work in our own personal ways to bring about change. Things will only get better when enough of us decide to take those personal steps whether or not we believe they will ultimately be successful. When enough of us do that, change will inevitably come about.
As long as we allow ourselves to be stopped from acting because we don't believe we have the power to help, we doom ourselves to more of the same.
DS
Paula Span: This comes from David Shtulman of the American Jewish Committee in Pittsburgh.
I spoke with one of the leaders of a large mosque near Princeton, N.J., where Pearl and Ahmed will be speaking sometime this fall. This community had long been involved with Jewish and Christian groups in the area, the kind of small interfaith effort that exists in many cities around the country. In fact, the mosque's annual open house had been scheduled for a few days after September 11, 2001.
The congregation went ahead and held the event, wondering who would turn up. As it happened, the place was jammed; visitors could hardly get into the parking lot. The overwhelming response was one of friendship and reassurance: we know you, we have visited with you and you have come to our houses of workship, there's not going to be any backlash against Muslims here. The physician who was telling me this story told me how moved his co-religionists were that their neighbors would go out of their way to calm their fears and reaffirm the values they all held.
What if there were a few hundred efforts like that?
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Washington, DC:
Where would we get information on the upcoming dialogue in Baltimore?
Paula Span: The director of the Daniel Pearl Foundation tells me that the date's not set yet. But the next dialogue is in Chicago on August 8, part of the program of the International Association of Human Rights Agencies convention.
You can keep abreast of the dialogue and its events on the Foundation website, www.danielpearl.org.
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Chantilly, Va.:
Given the similarities of their religious traditions, one might expect Jews and Muslims to be very close. Is the issue really religion? Doesn't the tension boil down to Israel/Palestine and perceived mistreatment by both sides? If this issue were to be resolved, wouldn't the great divide end relatively quickly?
Paula Span: I agree with you that for decades, the ongoing conflict was not framed it religious terms. A number of the earlier Palestinian militants, for example, were Christian. Yassir Arafat is not a religious leader and did not cite the Koran as justification for his actions.
But now, the "religionization" (you will also see it referred to as "Islamicization") of the conflict has taken root. Would the divide end relatively quickly if the conflict ended? I don't know the answer, but we have considerable evidence from around the world that interreligious and interethnic enmity can last for decades, sometimes even centuries, after the initial causes have faded.
Certainly, though, a resolution would be an enormous step towards restoring Muslim/Jewish tolerance, which would then help reduce the violence, which might make tolerance still easier.
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Rochester Hills, Michigan:
I would like to commend both Dr. Pearl and Dr. Ahmed for their courageous efforts in engaging in dialogue. Analagous to Marquez' "Love in a Time of Cholera," these two individuals continue to demonstrate the power and promise of Dialogue in a Time of Discord.
My question is whether the two are planning on collaborating on a book providing the recipe for dialogue?
Saeed
Paula Span: Not that I know of, but if a publisher would like to step forward, I'm sure they'd consider the possibility.
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Anonymous:
Do you have any sympathy for the view that Islam, while not inherently any more violent or intolerant than any other religion, is going through a really rough time right now? Having a hard time coping with a changing world and new ideas (science, role of women, intercultural contact, etc.) Do you think Ahmed would agree?
Sometimes I wonder if it's just a stage that religious civilizations go through. Mohammed died in 632, which would make Islam about 1400 years old. Things were pretty wild in Christendom in the year 1400.
Paula Span: Good point and yes, Ahmed has talked about the stresses on traditional societies from modern media and a globalized culture and economy. Karen Armstrong, in her book "The Battle for God," argues that fundamentalism itself is not an ancient belief system; it's a response to modernity and its assaults. And virtually every religion has its fundamentalists, of course, and parts of its history that believers are less than proud of.
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Washington, DC:
I'd like to encourage the person who wished for an Army of Ahmeds and Pearls to become part of that army. The Daniel Pearl Foundation organizes a global Daniel Pearl Music Day around October 10th - Danny's birthday - and invites people everywhere to be part of a global network of concerts dedicated to "Harmony for Humanity." It's free and an opportunity to join people around the world in music and reach out in friendship by organizing a local interfaith-concert. More info on www.danielpearl.org
Paula Span: Though this invitation comes without a name, I believe it's from Judea Pearl in LA. Sure sounds like him.
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Paula Span: Though our time is up, we can continue for a bit -- I'm still getting some comments and questions.
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Washington, DC:
Don't you think that Jews and Arabs will always despise one another until there is peace in the Middle East? It's kind of like the Hatfields & McCoys.
How can a group see another group as "human beings" when they feel that group is committing genocide against their people, disobeying international law and not being punished, and then rewriting history books? People can't forgive and forget while their brothers are being murdered like animals as they speak. Only resolution and then time will heal these wounds.
Paula Span: No, actually, I don't think so. Even in Israel and Palestine, there are Muslims and Jews who maintain friendships, who run schools and camps and clinics for kids of both faiths, who are willing to criticize their own leaders and policies. And in this country, though Muslims and Jews are concerned and at times angry about developments in that region, we mostly manage not to kill one another or bomb one another's houses of worship.
No question that peace or at least a lessening of violence in that part of the world would be a blessing and a help to everyone trying to lessen hatred. But that doesn't mean that people have to wait until that happens. Sometimes, individuals are ahead of their own leaders.
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Knoxville,TN:
The US govt says that American Muslims are a peaceful, law abiding and educated community and I can verify that since I belong to that community. However American images of Islam continue to be of violence, oppression, backwardness and generally as a threat to the American way of life. Why cannot people see American Muslims as proof that Islam is not a threat to anybody?
Paula Span: It's hard to argue that Islam is not a threat to anybody when it is waved as a justification for bloody acts, overseas and now in the US too. I don't think Americans at this point will buy an image of Muslims that isn't realistic about the fact that in many parts of the world, Islamic control does involve oppression, violence and backwardness -- and anti-Semitism.
What might work is helping to spread the knowledge that along with such conditions, there are also peaceful, tolerant Muslims . The dialogue that Pearl and Ahmed are embarked on is an attempt to strengthen the voices and influence of people in the middle, so that they can withstand assaults from the extremes.
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Milwaukee, WI:
There are a lot of hopeless people around. Many think that peace won't come between Muslims and Jews. They say, they want to hope, but it's pointless. One thing I can say to these people to is that hope is a prerequisite of peace. So instead of misunderstanding Islam and blaming Muslim citizens and equating Al Qaeda and Islam as equal, try working with so many Muslims who are working for peace. And for God's sake... have some hope.
Paula Span: India and Pakistan can have discussions -- not easy ones -- about ending their violence after decades of war and suspicion and denunciation. Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland seem able tat last to put aside generations of violence. I don't want to sound naive about this, but those conflicts are at least as long-lived as the troubles between Muslims and Jews and seemed as intractible. Maybe they're not.
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cambridgeuk:
before we conclude may I thank you for your balanced and wise article and contribution to dialogue---akbar
Paula Span: From Akbar Ahmed in the UK.
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Paula Span: Thanks to you all for tackling these tough subjects with us. I'm happy to continue the discussion via email with those who didn't have a chance to join in. I'm spanp@comcast.net
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