Career Track Live

The Washington area is a magnet for smart, ambitious young workers. Post columnist Mary Ellen Slayter writes a regular column for these professionals who are establishing their careers locally, and offers advice online as well.

The transcript follows below.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

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Chicago, Illinois: The subject of your magazine gets right to the heart of the matter for me. I have what many people consider to be a very good job-- the pay is relatively high; the workload can be difficult and stressful, but the hours are not bad; I am getting good experience learning about specific elements of business (applicable to both the public and private sector) to which I had never had exposure before; I manage a group of people, which I had not done before.

It comes with the typical frustrations: egos, red tape, etc.

Yet-— to me, the overall problem is: it lacks "meaning." I don't think that what I do matters. I am not improving anyone's lives in a significant way. I don't particularly enjoy the field that I am in (P.R. / marketing) and don't see myself wanting to make this my long-term career path.

Adding to my frustration is the fact then when I am alerted to job opportunities (and, even "offered" jobs) that would be more "meaningful," I have turned them down or declined to pursue them as aggressively as I should. I am afraid that influencing part of my considerations are things such as: the cut in pay that I would have to take; losing the ability to oversee staff people, and even my concern that the workload (and hours, travel, and possible geographic move) would be more tedious and stressful than I want to deal with.

Does this make me a phony? Am I really deluding myself into saying "I want a job that ‘matters' "-— but, in reality, I have become too lazy and too interested in the cash?

I know it's hard to address these issues in a vacuum & without more details-— but I would appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Kevin Salwen: I think almost all of us go through a phase like that in which we work for reasons that may be connected to money, prestige, whatever. But I use the word phase because I think increasingly people are moving away from swapping their hours for dollars. They eventually crave meaning and fulfillment. And once they start to get some, it's impossible to turn back. As the expression goes, the ratchet only turns in one direction.

So, my suggestion would be to start defining success in your own terms -- not by what your parents or friends think and certainly not strictly on dollar terms. Once you figure out what really matters to you, happiness and job will go hand in hand, I bet.

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Mary Ellen Slayter: Good afternoon, everyone! We have a great couple of guests today and lots of interesting questions. Let's get started!

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Anytown, USA: Hello!

What a great idea for a magazine! I'm looking
forward to picking up your inaugural copy this
weekend...I need it.

For most of us, finding "passionate, purposeful,
and meaningful work" is only a dream. A dream
that we definitely want to come true. Will your
magazine feature companies that provide what
we're looking for? It sometimes seems so hard to
find an environment that will be truly fulfilling.

Thanks again, and good luck!
Susan

Kevin Salwen: Susan, absolutely. Our goal is to feature companies that live with a set of values -- and then hire to match those values. I've always thought there should be some kind of values test -- almost like a Myers-Briggs thing -- that could tell us how a company might act. One other area that Worthwhile will highlight is "enlightened leadership"; the two (co and leader) often go hand in hand.

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Thank you, Mary Ellen.: I don't recall ever having read quite as clear, thoughtful, and helpful disclaimer in a major newspaper as you wrote in column:

"...Of course, this all presumes you have a career, or at least aspirations of one. The Worthwhile world is a white-collar one, in which people have achieved a sufficient level of economic success to begin asking the existential questions. There's no talk of unions, gender and race discrimination, or the demoralizing effects of prolonged unemployment, so if you're looking for that kind of work life magazine, keep waiting. (Also, if you're the sort of person who is put off by unabashed optimism, you'll want to keep browsing the magazine aisle.)..."

I certainly needed to hear it.

What do Anita and Kevin think?

Kevin Salwen: I agree with Mary Ellen's view on optimism. We do see the glass as half full. But we do deal with diversity and race and unions and gender. That said, we always try to provide solutions along with our mention of the problems.

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Mary Ellen Slayter: Kevin, what would "enlightened leadership" look like to a young worker who's trying to decide if an employer would be a good fit for him or her?

Or even more important, what should we do if we want to become that sort of leader ourselves one day?

Kevin Salwen: It would look like an org in which employees don't have to change their values to walk in the door. It would look like a place where the best work -- meaning creativity that comes from the individual -- is cherished. I could go on

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Alexandria, Va.: Mary Ellen,

I personally got a lot of pressure from my parents (and university, which churned out business managers) to get a job that was prestigious and in which I made a decent salary when I graduated from college 7 years ago. That I took those two things to be more important than seeking my passion and working with my talents is a huge regret in my life. The focus on bragging rights and money led me to many miserable jobs and low self-esteem. Now, after 7 years, I'm finally realizing my strengths and have successfully made a career switch to doing what I love. I'm so glad I'm here now, but I wish I hadn't wasted those years in misery. I wish someone would have told me it was OK to take a little time to find something meaningful to me. I think maybe our parents did not have this luxury of choice - they had to take what paid the bills, period, so they may not understand the situation the next generation faces when choosing jobs or a career.

Kevin Salwen: Things are indeed different for what we refer to as the post-Sept 11, post-Enron generation. We know what we want (meaning and fulfillment) and we know that whatever 'contract' workers supposedly had with companies is long gone -- thanks for layoffs, downsizings, outsourcing, fraud, greed, etc.

Don't lament those 7 years. You realize where you are. Now go forward and kick booty.

Anita Sharpe: I agree that no experience is wasted. You may not recognize now what those 7 years contributed to your psyche, but they did most likely help pave the way to where you are today. I'm impressed it only took 7 years to find your passion -- so many people fail to wake up until their 40s or 50s (or never.)

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Mary Ellen Slayter: I should clarify ... I never meant that disclaimer as a knock on the magazine, which I enjoyed. I think a lot of people could get a lot out of it as well. However, like all things, it's not for everyone.

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Anytown (In limbo): I'm a good writer with lots of ideas -- too many ideas -- for columns, publications, and websites mostly in the area of social-political commentary.

I decided that I would start writing columns, send them around, and if nothing else by the end of it I would have a good collection of essays that I could submit as a book proposal or possibly self publish.

Problem is...I start to feel pretty hopeless and discouraged and think that I've made the wrong decision and stop. I have a financial cushion, so I am not experiencing obvious consequences from this.

Help! Suggestions?

Kevin Salwen: Aim to get just one or two "wins." Nobody likes beating their head against the wall forever. If you can get a few things published in small publications, you can grow your audience, get more acceptance. And be sure to write about things that are fascinating to you -- it comes through in your work and editors will know that.

Mary Ellen Slayter: Writing for a living is hard, but not impossible. I think Kevin's advice about starting small is great. As you build up your credentials (and develop your skills), you'll have a more receptive audience with editors. I'd steer clear of self-publishing any books unless you have money to burn. Have you considered writing for a small, local newspaper? There's nearly always a need for well-written commentary of local issues.

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Arlington, Va.: In my 20's, I went through that stage where I hated work and drove myself mad looking for "meaningful work." Around 30 I got married; a couple years later we had our first child. About the same time, I landed a good, stable, but unexciting job where I still am employed.

Then, things started to click, I soon discovered that I was trying to seek fulfillment from my job when all along, it was my life that provided me this fulfillment. My wife, my kids, my life is the center of my life, not my job. Yes, I have to work, and work hard, but it's a means to an end. I work to live, not the other way around. Work pays the bills and provides intellectual -sometimes] stimulation, but that's it. Also, I made a conscious decision to seek employment that let me have a life. Sure, the money's good but not fantastic, but I work 8 hrs. a day and never weekends. I'm never going to be the CEO but I'll be there for my kids' birthdays and school functions.

If I had to give advice to any 20-something it would be this: teach yourself marketable skills, work hard but don't make work the center of your life. Make your LIFE the center of your life, be it family, friends, hobbies, religion or all of the above. Work comes and goes, one day you're the star, the next day you're laid off. Put your effort and faith in things that provide lasting satisfaction.

Sure, some of us are called to self-sacrificing, all encompassing work like taking care of tsunami victims, or the religious life etc, but if you're an accountant, software engineer, i.e. a corporate cog, focus on what's important, life because from my experience, you won't find it at work.

Kevin Salwen: I only partly agree. Wouldn't you be happiest if you had both? Why not strive for work that makes you feel as high and fulfilled as things in your social life.

That said, who can argue too hard with someone who says she's happy.

Mary Ellen Slayter: In many ways, I think happiness comes from finding that balance, which shifts. It's not an either-or situation. We only have so much energy to go around. At different stages of your life, work takes precedent; other times it will be family and close friends.

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New York, N.Y.: It's a new year and I'd like to pursue other
passions in my life. What suggestions or tips do
you have for someone in their mid-life looking to
change careers?

Thank you!

Anita Sharpe: My No. 1 suggestion: identify very specific things that you love to do. It's a little harder than it sounds but it will yield great results. For instance, a turning point for me was realizing that I love to create a media product that can be measured. I love the entire process of doing it: talking to sources, talking to writers, editing, design, etc. BUT -- and this is important -- all that process stuff would not make me very happy if there were no way to measure success (for instance, no way to track paid subscribers.) So for you, look at the things that you have done in your life that left you feeling very gratified -- get very granular with your analysis -- and you will probably see some patterns emerging that will help lead to a fulfilling career.

Mary Ellen Slayter: Also, if you're scared to jump straight into a new career, look for part-time or volunteer activities. There's nothing wrong with dabbling.

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San Francisco, Calif.: Hi there,
I have a masters in journalism, but have been employed almost exclusively in marketing/PR functions. I do freelance writing in that same ilk. It's not very meaningful, but it pays the bills. Unfortunately, most jobs that fit my personal interests/passions/work style have no need - or budget - for a pure (copy) writer or editor. Do you have any suggestions for finding a writing-intensive job with a nonprofit or the like? I know many groups have newsletters & other publications, but I don't know how to get inside, unless I see a job posting. I hope this question makes sense...

Mary Ellen Slayter: Have you considered starting your own business? Each of these nonprofits might not need a full-time copywriter or editor. But I bet they could use one for specific projects...

Kevin Salwen: I agree with Mary Ellen. Freelance/contract businesses are thriving these days and the control over your own schedule is great as a side benefit.

Mary Ellen Slayter: And as for getting inside ... Ignore job ads, and find out who's running the place. Show them --preferably in writing in hard numbers --how you can bring value to their organization.

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New York, New York: I work at a private consulting firm in New York City. Last
month I was offered a full-time position with a well-known
national nonprofit organization who I have done pro-
bono for in the past. Although I would take a large pay
cut I think I would really enjoy working with them. How
would I evaluate this opportunity?

Kevin Salwen: Run the drill: what would I miss about my current job (including $$$$!!!) and how would that change my life? Then do the same about what you would gain (including love of work -- the Thank Goodness it's Monday syndrome). It should be reasonably clear after that.

If you decide that the $$ is really critical, try figuring out how to do more of the pro-bono to get the love without as much sacrifice -- and set a 5 year plan to make the real changeover. I love those 5 year plans -- you can get your goal with less sacrifice.

Anita Sharpe: A word of caution: sometimes being unhappy with your work can deceive you into thinking that money, etc., doesn't really matter to you. I know several people who have taken large pay cuts to go to nonprofits and found the nonprofit world to be every bit as bureaucratic and political as corporate life -- yet they were making tens of thousands of dollars less. Ouch! Make sure you know what kind of environment you are going into before you take the plunge.

Kevin Salwen: Good point Anita. The nonprofit world is as full of backstabbing as many other places. Tread carefully.

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Charlotte, North Carolina: I'm stuck in a not-meaningful job, trying to get into grad school so that I can land that meaningful job working with kids and their families -- however, until I get that degree, I'm stuck here in life-blood-sucking office world. I need the money to pay for school and bills and everything otherwise I’d love to quit and go back to school full-time -- but I guess we all have to deal with some lumps to get to the overall goal right? But in the meantime, isn't there a place I can work that won't make me miserable?

Anita Sharpe: Yes -- you can find meaningful work that isn't necessarily your dream job. No one should have to endure life-blood-sucking work. Not knowing exactly what you do, it's hard to give specific advice. But assuming you have corporate skills such as marketing, sales, finance, etc. -- start by looking at companies noted for being good places to work: Starbucks, to name just one, and see if you can make a change. I also know people who have forged unusual but fulfilling work lives by cobbling together a couple of professions. I know one person who sells art and antiques on weekends and works as a barista at Starbucks for the insurance and college-tuition benefits. Another person I know coaches golf on the weekends and is a part-time office manager (with flexible hours) during the week.

Mary Ellen Slayter: I agree. Just because you have to have *a* job doesn't mean you have to have that particular one. It will be a lot to juggle while also applying to grad school, but keep an eye out for something that would make a better fit.

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Providence, Rhode Island: Would anyone care to define meaning and fulfillment in work? It depends on the person is the easy answer, but I don't think this is valid. Why must meaning come from work?

This points to a larger facet of our culture that emphasizes the connection between our work and our identity. One's job title signifies one's personality to others, and also to oneself. It seems to me that people who buy into this connection worry most over their job.

Isn't there some degree of solace in a job that does not represent one's character? There is a freedom to "do" one thing and care about another. Ours seems to be a culture too reliant on "being" something at all times, and not just doing things. "I am a banker" is such a limiting way of describing and understanding oneself.

Kevin Salwen: You can either fight it or recognize that for most people their work/career DOES define (in part!) who they are. When people say "What do you do?" at a cocktail party, they aren't asking if you coach Little League baseball.

That said, how do we define meaning and purpose? It circles directly back to your belief system, what makes you want to get up in the morning and head for work, what makes you excited, what makes you dream, what makes you happy to tell a friend "I am an architect" or whatever.

Anita Sharpe: Replace the work "work" with the word "purpose." We all have the same 24 hours every day and that is where our real wealth lies -- as Annie Dillard said, how we spend our days is how we spend our lives.

We can work for a paycheck and leave our hearts and souls at the elevator door. Or we can find something that fully engages our passions and makes us feel that we are living out our purpose. Given a choice, I believe most people would go for the latter. The problem is, a lot of people don't think there is a choice.

Mary Ellen Slayter: It's pretty hard to discount the damage that spending 40 hours a week at a job you hate has on your psyche.

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Alexandria, Va.: Mary Ellen,

Over a year ago, I applied to a position I was really interested in and got an interview. After the interview, which went well, I never heard back from the organization even with repeated follow-ups. I later found out that the person who was doing the hiring left the org., and I guess that caused some internal chaos, restructuring, etc. Now I see the job posted again. I'm still interested, as it is a really good fit, but my last experience did leave a sour taste in my mouth because they just dropped everything and no one let me know what was going on with my application. My question is whether or not I should make reference at all to the fact that I did once already interview for this position, or just pretend it never happened. The whole team of people is new, so I'm not sure any of them would be aware without me saying something.

Kevin Salwen: There's no pride involved here. If you want the job, go back there and pursue it as aggressively as you can. Never rely on a single individual -- they end up with issues you could never control (death in the family, fight with the co-worker, job-hunting themselves). Good luck!

Anita Sharpe: I wouldn't hide anything -- if it's appropriate to tell them that you already interviewed (i.e., they ask), tell them. I don't see why you need to lead off with that information, though. You are basically interviewing for a new job with a new group of people.

Mary Ellen Slayter: This sounds like good opportunity to me. Chaos often is.

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Washington, D.C.: A few of us in my office are upset with the amount of favoritism given to a new employee. We don't feel that we can say anything about it. Today we saw the worst case of favoritism so far: despite the fact that each of us has been here at least a year longer than this woman, who started a few months ago and has made some mistakes, she was given a promotion to a position we had been competing for. It's discouraging and we don't feel like we can comment on it directly.

Anita Sharpe: Is there a way you can ask the person/people who made the decision -- in an unemotional way -- about the factors that led to their decision and what you can do better position yourself for future opportunities? It's possible that there is something you don't know; in any case, it will alert them that you are taking note. If you work in an environment where such questions are discouraged, my hunch is you need to change environments.

Mary Ellen Slayter: Keeping it focused on the positive (i.e. what can *you* do to better position *yourself*) really is the secret. Complaining about favoritism just makes you look unprofessional. No one every whined or groused their way into a raise or promotion.

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Monterey, Calif.: Nearly 20 years ago, I began a journey similar to that which you are recommending to your readers. I thought it was just about "career" at first, but it turned out to be the beginning of a process of personal healing and self-discovery that continues to this day.

I wonder if you are experiencing something similar either personally or in narrowing/defining the scope of your publication. There is much more than just a "job switch" in moving from success in the corporate environment to success on your own.

Some people may have it, some people don't, and some people think they do but don't.

I definitely fell into the third category. I could perform successfully for "the system," but not for myself.

Kevin Salwen: The system vs. yourself is a fascinating topic. I think it's the reason so many people feel undernourished at work -- the system doesn't connect to them. The trick of course is to find a system that fits your values -- or to build your own. That's why so many people we connect to are entrepreneurs.

Mary Ellen Slayter: But self-employment isn't necessarily for everyone. I think a lot of people really enjoy being part of a bigger system, and really do their best work in those situations. The trick is to find one in which you thrive.

Kevin Salwen: I absolutely agree. Many people feel more comfortable in larger orgs with "teammates." The trick is to find the one that connects to you as a person in the whole sense of the word. The reason Starbucks is so successful as an employer is because it has a very strong corporate culture that is well explained when you walk in the door. There are benefits, there is connection. Smart business.

Mary Ellen Slayter: Or it could be they just get you hooked on the free coffee ...

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RE: 7 years:
It took me 7 years to get the job I wanted -- working on Capitol Hill for a 10th term Congressman who is as passionate about the issue I'm working on as I am. And I took a pay cut to get it, however it's the long-term benefits and people I will meet that will be better then anything I could imagine back home at job number 6 or so in as many years.

Kevin Salwen: Bravo! Way to stick with it. (Hey and now you can be online at 2 p.m. -- must be my kind of congressman!)

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Washington, D.C.: I found your article and this topic amusing from a personal perspective. I left college full of determination not to "sell out" and find work I found fulfilling. And I did, except that I was miserable. Had to be that particular place, I told myself, so I moved on to fulfilling jobs 2 and 3 before I landed in an employee assistance program and realized it wasn't just finding the right job, it was dealing with my own issues. I say this as a caveat to unhappy, unsatisfied people out there who say, "If only I could do what really matters..." That work will never fulfill you if you're already stuffed with your other, deeper, issues. (Life is a lot better now, BTW).

Anita Sharpe: That's an interesting point. I know a couple of people -- both male -- who were unhappy in general and assumed their careers were the problem. They made changes, uprooted their families and…still miserable. Turned out that they were unhappily married but didn't want to confront that.

But for many of us, it's not so much that we are totally miserable. It's just a feeling that we're not really living out our purpose in life -- or that our talents and passions aren't really being tapped at work. It's more of a restless feeling than deep unhappiness.

Kevin Salwen: But we're thrilled you found our article amusing, aren't we Mary Ellen? :-)))

Mary Ellen Slayter: Of course. I'm only here to amuse.

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Providence, Rhode Island: Part of my point is that often hating one's job comes from a fear that that job is indicative of that person's identity (take, for example, the person who ranted about soul sucking heartless corporate world). One is driven to hate one's job because one feels that only by hating the job one can forge a distinction between oneself and one's work.

At a cocktail party, a guest may not be asking if you coach little league, but you can certainly say that you do, if you felt like making small talk in that direction.

We try to get to know each other by our jobs, unfortunately, not what we think or say. And why, at a cocktail party, would one want to talk about oneself anyway? There are far more interesting things to talk about.

Kevin Salwen: More interesting than myself? Never. :-)

We answer about work because that has become in many ways the standard currency for the question. Is this right? I don't know -- and sometimes I will answer with I coach little or I love music or some such; those replies always set people back on their heels a bit.

More to your first point, though, the hating your job, suffering to a point of creating a 2nd persona is such a 1950s mentality. I suffer for some greater good, like a new car or my mortgage. Our point is that you can -- and even owe it to yourself -- to have both!!!

Mary Ellen Slayter: The significance of this question varies a lot, depending on where in the country you are. D.C. is a very work-centric town, and everyone talks about their jobs constantly. It's a badge of honor to put in marathon hours at the office.

Where I grew up, in Louisiana, almost no one does. And they sure don't brag about working all the time.

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Washington, D.C.: The poster from Calif. (wants to write) should investigate grant writing for nonprofits as an independent contractor. There are FT jobs in this area, but some organizations are too small to need someone on staff FT. They may just need help with a few proposals a year. It helps to have some experience, though.

At the last place I worked, the exec. dir. hired a freelance writer at $50/hour to help out.

Mary Ellen Slayter: Thanks! I suspected as much.

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RE: 7 years again:
I'm taking my lunch....Take them now, because once things get going, I'll be eating on the run.

Kevin Salwen: I'll look for mustard on my legislation :-)

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Mary Ellen Slayter: That's probably how they accidentally passed that bill allowing congressmen to look at our tax returns: That section was covered in mustard.

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Washington, D.C.: How do I get up the courage to go back to school and pursue the career (I think) I want when it means financial upheaval? I'm 26, debt-free, commitment-free, which is both good and bad -- I am in the perfect time to go back to school, but scared of the huge expense it will be. I mean, 20 years of college loans. That's terrifying. The career I'm in right now is not fulfilling and I think I'll always regret it if I don't change now--but the money still scares me.

Anita Sharpe: This is the perfect time to take the plunge -- it doesn't get any better than no debt and no commitments. Someone once said that they tried to live their lives so that they would have as few regrets as possible. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Kevin Salwen: Not to be morbid about this but try this exercise: Write your own obituary. If it doesn't say what you want it to say, change your life. (p.s. This actually happened to Alfred Nobel, the inventor of dynamite, who then created the Nobel Peace Prize).

Mary Ellen Slayter: Yep, this is the time to do it.

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School and a Meaningful Job: I would love to see a program in high school that show students what the jobs they are pursuing after college are actually like. I know many people who are lawyers and thought they would like it in high school and college but now hate it. If we could have this in high school, maybe the students wouldn't have spent so much money in college pursuing a degree that is not best suited for them.

I myself have an MBA and a good government job, but I probably would have been more fulfilled with a more creative job. But, I didn't know what office jobs were like.

Kevin Salwen: Probably not a bad idea. But also probably not a particularly realistic one. Hard to know till you done it

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Arlington, Va.: "Wouldn't you be happiest if you had both? Why not strive for work that makes you feel as high and fulfilled as things in your social life."

You know, I really don't think that's possible in today's corporate world. Companies want you to sign your life away, especially if you want a well paying job, a position of importance. You either have to take the job below your abilities but lets you have a life, or the reverse. I have the ability to be a VP at my company, but these guys/gals never see their families, are always under stress etc. Corporate America has become so focused just on making money that the well being of their employee is secondary. Maybe one should be a teacher or firefighter if they want fulfillment, but it's not going to come from the Fortune 500.

Mary Ellen Slayter: You assume that teachers and firefighters aren't also stressed by their jobs?!

That's one of the biggest errors in thinking about careers that I see people making. It's similar to the assumption that corporate work is stressful and nonprofit work is a field of daisies.

It's all about finding the right career for each, individual person. I'm not sure who would be more miserable--a firefighter who should have been a chief financial officer, or a CFO who should have been a firefighter.

Anita Sharpe: I couldn't agree more, Mary Ellen. It takes a specific kind of personality to thrive in lot of big corporate environments but those who do, not only get ahead but do it happily. We have a story in our premiere issue about a female exec at IBM who loves everything about her work -- hers is a pace that would drive many of us nuts. Smaller companies are still creating the greatest number of jobs, so most of us don't have to look to the Fortune 500 for fulfillment.

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Mary Ellen Slayter: Thanks for all the great questions, and a special thanks to Anita and Kevin for taking the time to join us today!

Anita Sharpe: Thanks to Mary Ellen and all the readers. This was my first time doing a live, online chat -- lots of fun!

If you pick up a copy of Worthwhile, let us know what you think: info@worthwhilemag.com.

Kevin Salwen: And thanks for the thoughtful questions. We had fun.

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