Teacher Says: Gifted Students

Gifted Children with Learning Disabilities

Evelyn Vuko (washingtonpost.com)

What are the signs of giftedness? How do you assess it? How do you help a child who is gifted but has a learning disability? What do you do if a gifted student is under-challenged? And how does No Child Left Behind address the education of gifted students?

Joining columnist Evelyn Vuko is Jan Davidson, Ph.D., author of "Genius Denied," and president of the Davidson Institute for Talent Development in Reno, Nevada.

They were online Tuesday, June 15 at 2 p.m. ET.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

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Evelyn Vuko : The questions we've already received today reflect the broad spectrum of issues surrounding education of gifted kids; questions like: Should trajectory--skipping grades, placement tests, accelerated courses, etc., be the main focus when a child has been assessed as gifted? Are public school programs or private school programs or home schooling more appropriate? How do you maneuver the rules and regulations in your school to get what your gifted child needs? Welcome! Dr. Jan Davidson and I are ready to roll...

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Washington, D.C.: What do you see as the single biggest obstacle facing the education of gifted students today?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: The biggest obstacle is misunderstanding by the schools and the public about the need for bright students to learn in school like any other child. They need an accelerated educational program that will appropriately challenge their abilities...not over challenge them, but APPROPRIATELY CHALLNGE them. Unfortunately teachers and schools often neglect gifted students because
1) They want them to stay with the rest of the class...even though they already have mastered the material.

2) They may not be familiar with the research on acceleration--which strongly advocates it for bright children.

3) The philosophy that children must be kept with their age peers.

4) The belief that acceleration "hurries" children out of childhood.

5) The concern that acceleration could hurt students socially.

6)Political concerns about "equality" for all.

7)The concern that other students will be offended if one student is accelerated.

The research shows overwhelming that all these assumptions are false. Fortunately this fall there will be a report on this research , entitled "A Nation Deceived" will made available by the Templeton Foundation to schools and parents. We'll have more information on www.geniusdenied.com website after this chat.

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Providence, RI: Could you explain the range of abilities among gifted students and the differences in their needs? For instance: What is the difference between the abilities and needs of a moderately gifted child and a highly, exceptionally, or profoundly gifted child?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: The more extreme the child is from the mean IQ of 100, the more modification required for the educational program. The student should be allowed to progress at a pace and a depth that matches his/her abilities.

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Toledo, Ohio: What do you think is the best way to encourage
appropriate learning opportunities for the best and
brightest?

-Or-

What can I do to help schools make a difference in the
educational lives of the gifted and talented?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: I think the best way is to group the students with their intellectual peers (rather than by age) in a classroom with a teacher that is an expert in the field.

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Sharpsburg, GA: In a high school core science classroom (I teach chemistry)it seems difficult to be creative and explore while at the same time being able to cover content goals. Too often we end up just spoon-feeding essential facts. Do you have any ideas that might be helpful in taking a more creative approach?

Evelyn Vuko : You should take a look at the peer strategies developed by Harvard Physics Professor, Eric Mazur. His teaching strategy, called, "ConceptTests" uses peer group interaction to teach underlying concepts. It's been instituted in colleges nationwide. I've adapted even adapted it for an elementary classroom. His book is called "Peer Instruction: A User's Manual" (Prentice Hall).

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Sounds like a good approach.

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Toledo, Ohio: My son is a gifted underachieving 14 year old rising sophomore. His doctor and Honors
English teacher suggest that he take the GED and go to college since the public high school does not meet his needs. As a teacher, I know that this is problematic. He also realizes that he could benefit from some of what the high school has to offer. I've researched underachievement in the gifted population and understand that it boils down to a poor self-concept. My son refuses to "play the game" of school. He does just enough to get by and does not care about his low GPA. The psychiatrist says he isn't depressed or anxious, he has just started individual counseling, we have been in family counseling for many years. What do you suggest re: programming, increasing self-concept, underachieving behaviors and early entrance to college. It seems that he is denying his own genius!;

Thank you very mych for your time.

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: My experience is that when a student is receiving an appropriately challenging education program, he will increase his self-concept and will not be an underachiever. If he cannot get one in high school, an early college approach may be worth looking into. I suggest you go to the Library on the Genius Denied website and read an article entitled "Food for though: Is early college the right option" (title is close; it may vary slightly) by Nancy Robinson and Colleen Harsin.

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Baltimore, Md.: Our son is six and entering first grade at our
neighborhood public school in the fall. He is a
voracious reader and intellectually curious. His
teachers have told us he's very bright but he has
yet to be termed "gifted." We want him to continue
to be challenged in school and at home but we
wonder: Is having him titled "gifted" and placed in
gifted classes the best way to do that?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: This would depend on what the gifted program is. If it is a pull-out program a couple of hours a week, I would go ahead observe the class before I placed your son in it. As we emphasized in Genius Denied, gifted children need an accelerated program in core subjects--math, science, English.... not programs of puzzles and games.

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Fairfax, Va.: I am the mother of two sons who went through G&T programs. The most important benefits of these programs were:

1. having the boys in a peer group of kids who were at least as bright as they were, achievement-oriented, and positive about learning; (and, yes, some of those kids had learning disabilities and were also in special programs for those.)

2. Learning early on that just because you are bright, you can't expect everything to come easily; you have to work hard to achieve success and overcome obstacles.

This requires that the work be challenging and teachers be skilled in working with smart kids. The worst things that happen to these kids occur when they "con" the teacher with their smarts and/or charm, and are not held accountable or expected to work hard.
It is common for bright kids to have everything come easily for the first few years of school, and then when they reach the point where they really have to study, they are frustrated and don't have the skills and attitude to deal with challenges. (I know; it happened to me, and I never took advanced math because of it.)

I think G&T programs for bright kids are as important as special programs for kids with learning disabilities or other special needs, if we as a society are to make the most of everyone's talents.

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: I couldn't agree more!!!!!

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Phoenix, Arizona: I'm an ADD Coach and know there are gifted ADD and Aspergers children. ADD is broad label with many positive/negative coexistent features. Is there a learning environment for gifted or bright learning disabled children? These amazing kids are square pegs in round holes of the standard education system. I think I'm one of those kids that is now an adult. I was over 50 years of age before I discovered my true gifts and strengths.

Thank you so much for sharing your time here today.
Warren

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Many gifted students are twice exceptional....When this is the case they can often get an Individualized Education Plan for the disability that will also provided for their giftedness as well. As you probably know, accommodations for the giftness are not mandated in most states; but often teachers will do so.

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Washington, DC: Could you explain a little why this assumption, "The belief that acceleration "hurries" children out of childhood." is false? Isn't there something to just letting a kid be a kid?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Providing appropriate education for a gifted student does not "hurry" him or her thru childhood. It allows him or her to appropriately develop his/her intellectual ability.

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Gilbert, AZ: What resources are available to help our high school students select colleges/universities... are ivy league schools the only consideration? Are there secondary schools that specialize in gifted students by meeting their academic need?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Checkout www.gt-cybersouce.org. This is a large database of resources for gifted students where you can find the information you're looking for.

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Providence, RI: Gifted & enrichment programs are being cut all over the country. It seems that budget issues are always given as the reason for cutting the programs. Aren't there ways to educate gifted students (for instance grouping by ability rather than age) that don't cost more?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Yes. That is a major point that we make in "Genius Denied." Accommodating gifted students by grouping them with their intellectual peers DOES NOT cost the district more money.

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Phoenix, Arizona: If I may respond to Toledo, Ohio question referencing "underachieving." My son was extremely bright but also in that category. When a sophmore in high school having him go through career assessment and natural abilities testing, he met with a career counselor and psychologist. The results indicated that he was in the high range of intellect and he had nearly limitless potential. That was when my son realized he truly was bright...not just because his parents were saying he was. As an adult he is now a successful executive and motivates others on his staff.

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Thanks for sharing.

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Burlington, NC: What can parents do to help their gifted children that live in small-town communities?

Evelyn Vuko : Get on the Internet! Some excellent resources, in addition to the Davidson Institute at www.ditd.org are: www.gt-cybersource.org (written by parents and gifted kids; or the Gifted Child Society at www.gifted.org. Many offer additional links to resources or support groups.

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Go the www.Geniusdenied.com for specific reading lists and links for parents.

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Sarasota, FL: My son went to a gifted high school but at times it seemed that expectations were unrealistic as in course load and homework... and they were very unresponsive helping with early admission to college. Is there new information about that could change some of their attitutdes?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Like other students, gifted students need guidance in preparing for college admissions. Encourage your school not to confuse "intelligence" with "wisdom."

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Reno, NV: What suggestions to you have for policy makers to start addressing the needs of highly intelligent students? My experience with our school district is that the needs of my smart children are a very low priority, despite all of my advocacy efforts.
Thank you.

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: The "What you can Do" section of our book Genius Denied has a great subsection "For Policy Makers." Many time it is a matter of removing policies such as mandating 180 days of "seat time" per year for x number of years. Some kids learn faster than other; when the do, they should be able to learn something new!

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Virginia Beach, VA: What book would you consider the best source for the social issues involved in raising a gifted child? Is there one that covers issues about being able to appreciate her/his gifts, share her/his talents, and, yet, remain a humble human being? Also, how to deal with a verbally precocious child who obsessively uses psychology and constantly tries to outreason EVERYTHING, especially those questions that come with a no answer?

Evelyn Vuko : Contact "Supporting the Emotional Needs of the Gifted (SENG)" at 405 White Hall, Kent State University, PO Box 5190, Kent, OH 44242-0001; phone: 330-672-4450. Also read: Parent's Guide to Raising a Gifted Child by James Alvino (Ballantine) or Judy Galbraith's easy-to-assimilate "You Know Your Child is Gifted When" (Free Spirit).

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Good recommendations!

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Atlanta, Georgia: What type of schooling do you recommend - public versus private. As I have been investigating private schools, I have noted that in some of the schools geared toward the brightest children, there aren't programs for the highly gifted. I started out thinking that private was the only way to go, but am now leaning toward public (my son is just four). What are your thoughts?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: It all depends on the school. We've seen great public schools and so not so great private ones.... And we've seen the reverse. It all depends on philiosophy of the school. There is a great article by Linda Silverman called "For Parents: In Search of the Perfect Programming" in the library on www.GeniusDenied.com

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Las Vegas, NV: Two questions here, Dr. Davidson:

1. Why was gifted ed not included under IDEA and therefore mandated -- and free from budgetary axes?

2. Is there any research that actually supports the myth "they'll all even out by third grade?" particularly as this is applied (however erroneously) to EG or PG kids?

Thanks!;

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: 1) The politicians did not think Gifted Students need any special accommodations. Parents and teachers can change that....contact your congressman. Every year when we have our Davidson Fellows awards presented in Washington DC we get the fellows in front of as many representatives and senators to talk about their needs for an appropriate education. It's a problem they probably never thought about before.
2)NO. It's nonsense. It's as stupid as saying all kids will even out in height or weight by the third grade!

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Raleigh, N.C.: I have a very bright daughter in 3rd grade. While I adore her teacher and her classmates, she's not being sufficiently challenged. I've approached the school district about perhaps letting her skip a grade, but I've met with some resistance. I don't want to pull her out of public school but I'm afraid her education will suffer if I don't consider alternative outlets. Any thoughts on how I can re-approach the district?

Evelyn Vuko : Skipping a grade is not your only option. Rather than short-circuiting dialogue with your school, ask what accommodations they will be able to make for her and how you can work together to support them. Outside school, supplement her learning with weekly private tutoring, weekend projects and summer programs; find her a mentor in a field that interests her or an artist who's willing to take on a young apprentice. Capitalize on her exceptional capacity to absorb information from a wide range of sources.

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: sounds great!

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Scottsdale, AZ: I have a twice exceptional child who I am scared is starting to opt out of school because it is too easy, boring, etc. He is going into 4th grade in the fall. What can I do at home to keep him learning and engaged (his school has done nothing to help him).

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: What about a mentor in an area he's particularly interested in; an enriched program after school; a community college course that may be of interest in; or a special project.

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Arlington, Va.: Is there a resource or support group for parents of gifted children? Parenting exceptional children brings its own unique joys and challenges and it would be very helpful to talk to other parents who are in similar situations.

Evelyn Vuko : Try GT World, at www.gtworld.org an online support community for parents of gifted and talented kids.

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: There are several listed on Hoagiesgifted.com as well.

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Annandale, Va.: Can you offer any advice as to how to decide whether to put a child into a gifted/talented center program (where virtually all instruction would be with other children identified as GT)? Our second-grader is currently at a magnet school with a half-day language immersion program. She does not complain of being bored there, and we're generally delighted with the education she's been receiving, especially the foreign language and arts aspects. However, we don't think she's being academically "challenged" there, and the school-based GT instruction next year (if we leave her there) would be limited to 45-minute pull-outs once a week. (We almost certainly will leave her in her current program, at least for next year, but I'm interested in seeing what an expert would think.)

Thank you!

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Trust your instincts. You know your child better than anyone else.

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Concord, NH: Regarding policy-making - do you think there is any chance NO CHILD will be used to advance gifted education?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: My honest answer is NO. NCLB if too focused on students meeting the minimum standard.

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Newnan, GA: I currently teach English to 7th graders in a regular classroom setting. I have two students who should be in gifted classes, but their parents refuse to let them be tested. I am positive they belong in gifted, and they are definitely bored. Do I have the right (legally and morally) to pursue more challenging activities with them in the regular classroom setting?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: I think that differentiating the education program in the regular classroom can be done for gifted students as well as special ed students.

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Topsham, Maine: What do you perceive to be the biggest risks for a highly gifted child who attends a school that offers no differentiation of curriculum and/or recognition of the child's intellectual gifts?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: One of the biggest risks is "dumbing down". Denying one's gifts, not developing them can have lasting psychological effects.

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Washington, D.C.: Amen to everything you are saying. I am a product of being placed in gifted classes in elementary school. I am sure that I would have been a terror if I hadn't; in kindergarten I was bored because I already knew how to read and would get in trouble often because I was trying to entertain myself. Today I'm 25 and I just graduated from a top-20 law school. Keep gifted education strong!;

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Thanks for your feedback.

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Memphis, Tenn.: My son who is 5 1/2 years is very smart can read, do math, reason and understand at the level of 9 year olds. When they tested him for SB-LM in 7/2003, he received 129. I believe he is well above that, what can I do?

He has endless enthusiasm and energy for new things: electricity, solar system, plants, puzzles, jokes, experimentation, etc. Memphis schools have after a lot of arguments decided to promote him from Pre-K to First grade for next fall. I do not want to dumb-down, what can I do to help him.

Thank you.
VJ

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: Continue to offer him lots of opportunities to pursue his intellectual interests to the extent of his abilities.

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Bartlesville, Okla.: Do you have a recommended list of books with rich vocabulary (4th grade or above)but appropriate interest level for a 5 year old besides Charlotte's Web and Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH?

Evelyn Vuko : Take a look at the booklist developed by scientists and science teachers for the National Science Teachers Association at www.nsta.org. Interesting titles geared to the national science standards will expand her vocabulary and broaden her understanding of basic science concepts.

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: good idea!

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Mansfield, Mass.: How does the NEA feel about addressing the needs of gifted students? Has there been much effort on the part of NAGC to influence NEA thinking? Has NAGC had any success with the NEA and colleges in providing courses to help train and develop teachers to address the needs of gifted students?

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: regarding the first question, it's not a prioity.

Regarding the second question, not to my knowledge.

Regarding the 3rd question, I don't believe so.

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Grand Rapids, Mich.: Our 9,000 student district will be conducting a study of our gifted/talented programs throughout the '04-'05 school year. We will be seeking ways and means to serve our exceptionally gifted students more intentionally. What advice would you like to share with us, how can the Institute help?

Dan

Jan Davidson, Ph.D.: 1) I would consider ways you can group the bright students with their intellectual peers and provide them with an accelerated educational program. ... They will learn twice as much as they do in a mixed ability classroom (according to the research.)

2)I would look at great dual enrollment programs asuch as the Middle School/High School program in Springfield MO.

3)The Davidson Institute would be happy to help you. Contact us thru our website.

Our time is up. I wish I could have answered all the questions. I appreciate your interest in the subject. Please take some positive action to address the educational needs for bright learners.

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Evelyn Vuko : Before I close today's session, let me respond to the question about the type of teacher who would be ideal for teaching gifted kids. An ever-curious, book-loving and a research hound for starters; someone with a child-like fascination for learning, who gets sweaty and bright-eyed with excitement over each new project. You know the kind. Dr. Davidson and I are grateful for your overwhelming response to this many-faceted topic and apologize that we couldn't answer each and every one of your carefully considered questions. Thanks for taking the time to participate. Let's chat again on June 29th.

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