Human Rights

Amnesty International released its annual report on human rights on Wednesday, outlying what it sees as an eroding of human rights around the world and directly singling out the U.S.-led war on terror as 'divisive and dangerous.'

Bill Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA, discussed the organization's report, the state of human rights around the world.

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

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Bill Schulz: Greetings from Amnesty International USA. I am delighted to answer questions about the annual report we issued yesterday or any other aspect of our work.

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Fort Lauderdale, Fla.: How do you envision individuals and non-profits affecting change towards stopping these aggregious human rights abuses? Aside from donations and letters to Congressmen I'm sure many persons would be able to use directive from you to more effectively assist Amnesty and others.

Many thanks from a concerned citizen

Bill Schulz: The first suggestion is that everyone on this chat join AI!
Whether you do or not, you will find on our Website: www.amnestyusa.org, a host of suggested actions beyond merely "donations and letters to Congressmen" that may be attractive to you and certainly will help advance the human rights cause.

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Brooklyn, N.Y.: Thank you Mr. Schulz,

There are increasing rumors/reports that Iraqi women prisoners in Abu Ghraib have been raped by U.S. soldiers and that there is photographic evidence in at least one case. Can you tell us what has actually been verified at this point? One of the people researching this -- Professor Huda Shaker -- is associated with Amnesty in some way, isn't she? Also, why aren't we seeing more hard news about this issue? I realize that it's an explosive matter if proven true and that soldiers' lives could be in danger, but isn't it likely that NOT addressing the situation and allowing these rumors to spread could be equally dangerous?

Bill Schulz: To the best of my knowledge Amnesty does not have specific information with regard to rape of women prisoners, but it is certainly true that only by exposing all the abuses will the US ever be able to begin to repair its reputation. Yesterday I and other representatives of other US Human rights organizations met with Condileeza Rice to make sure that those accountable are brought to justice and new strictures imposed that will guard against this kind of thing ever happening again. We all must be vigilant in insisting that both of those things happen.

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Ft. Thomas, Ky.: Bill,

Are commanding officers being investigated as to whether or not any of them had a role in the human rights violations towards the Iraq prisoners? Certainly, someone somewhere other than the soldiers who performed the actual acts of violence, are involved?! If there are investigations, who is coordinating those investigations?

There seems to be a "lull" with the media right now on the topic of commanding officers being involved.

Thank you for your time and knowledge

Bill Schulz: Yes, it is my understanding that commanding officers are being investigated and they certainly should be because it is hard to believe MPs alone would have initiated these actions solely on their own authority. Multiple investigations are currently under way and Amnesty has urged the creation of an independent, public commission, like unto the 9/11 commission, to get the whole truth out. We will do our best to keep this issue front and center.

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Los Angeles, Calif.: What is Amnesty International doing about the wall in Israel?

Bill Schulz: Amnesty has expressed grave concerns regarding the wall in Israel and its impact not only on the Palestinian population, but on the chances for a successfully negotiated peace. We have long encouraged the introduction of international observers into the region and will continue to insist that Human Rights protections be a key component of any settlement of the dispute.

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Columbus, Ohio: Does Amnesty have any ability to bring legal sanction or meaningful penalties against those who break laws of human decency?

Bill Schulz: Amnesty is not of course a judicatory institution, but we strongly support legal action against perpetrators of human rights crimes and have been known to provide assistance to appropriate courts. We are also among the strongest supporters of the International Criminal Court, for it is the absense of any structures of accountability at the international level that has done more than virtually anything else to contribute to the explosion of human rights violations.

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Davis, Calif.: In the past, Amnesty International only had people work on cases in countries other than their own, for fear of reprisal at home. This was generally less of a concern for US citizens working in the US, however. With the current state of affairs and the US PATRIOT act, does Amnesty have new concerns about US citizens working on US affairs?

Bill Schulz: You are correct that it is now permissable for Amnesty members to work on violations in their own countries. Even before the Patriot Act, we were made aware of several insistances in which Amnesty members were targeted for surveilance by US authorities. I am not in a position to say that this has gotten worse since the Patriot Act was passed, but I can assure you that we are monitoring that possibility carefully and would not hesitate to "go public" if we learned of any attempts to intimidate our members or staff.

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Arlington, Va.: I wish your reports would give more credit to the value Americans place on human rights. Our methods might be different than the ones you would recommend, but we are after the same goal. After all, one of the most important goals for many Americans right now is that Iraq become a strong, democratic country. Pointing out where you think we are wrong is helpful, but do you have to be so shrill in your criticism of the United States? I believe your anti-American tone makes many people tune out what might otherwise be valid criticisms.

Bill Schulz: I'm sorry you find our reports "shrill." Our intention was to evaluate the human rights records of all 155 countries we monitored this past year in as dispassionate and even-handed a way as possible. Amnesty never ranks countries nor has ever suggested that one country is a "worse violator" than another. There are of course many ways in which the US's record on human rights is admirable, but it is also true that the US is responsible for many human rights failures, and as the sole remaining superpower and a country that prides itself on its human rights leadership the US's record is especially open to scrutiny.

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Connecticut: Do human rights abuses cases ever really get settled? What's an example of a good outcome from your experience?

Bill Schulz: Since Amnesty was founded in 1961 we estimate conservatively that at least 40,000 prisoners of conscience have been released thanks, at least in part, to the efforts of Amnesty's members. Moreover, the fact that indigenous human rights groups exist today in every corner of the globe, that a myriad of human rights treaties have been ratified over the last forty years and that an international criminal court has finally come into existence are all signs of success.

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New York, N.Y.: Considering that some of the MP's implicated in the abuse scandal are prison guards in their civilian lives, is it safe to assume that abuse is prevalent in U.S. prisons? Any chance that, given the current climate, we may see some prison reform at home?

Bill Schulz: Amnesty has long documented abuse in US prisons, from the capricious use of electro-shock weapons, to abuse of women prisoners by prison guards, to the inappropriate use of restraint chairs. County jails in particular are often the sites of abuse, but unfortunately mistreatment of prisoners happens at all levels to the extent that which the Iraq prisoner crisis focuses attention on prison conditions here at home, that can only be a positive development.

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Salt Lake City, Utah: If you put aside the horrible abuse of prisoners -- do you think the U.S. invasion of Iraq has made things better for the Iraqi people in terms of basic human rights?

Bill Schulz: No one who cares about human rights can fail to appreciate the fact that Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. He was one of the great brutes of the 20th Century and Amnesty had been exposing his abuses long before the US took them seriously. There is no question but that Hussein's downfall is a positive development for human rights. The problems are 1.)That the way in which the war was initiated undermined the authority of the international community upon which international human rights are based: 2.)The way in which the war and its aftermath have been prosecuted have themselves contributed to great misery for the Iraqi people and, 3.)Little planning appears to have been done to introduce a fully functioning judicial system to Iraq that would be in a position to enforce human rights in the future.

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Columbus, Ohio: Does Amnesty International make individual referrals to any sorts of organizations performing as ombudsmen in countries where abuses are cited in your reports/findings?

Bill Schulz: As I mentioned in reply to an earlier question, we find indigenous human rights groups operating in almost every country, including some of the most repressive. Amnesty does its best to support such groups and to protect them and often encourages individuals at risk to be in contact with them. In some cases we also provide direct assistance to individuals under threat to help them leave their countries for safe haven elsewhere.

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Arlington, Va.: The U.S. used to be viewed as one of the good guys when it came to human rights. I fear that the last few years have erased that impression in much of the world's mind. How will we ever get China and other countries with a history of human rights abuses to take us seriously?

Bill Schulz: Well, that is a very good question and a point that we have made repeatedly. It is impossible for the US to see itself as a champion of the rule of law on the one hand while it is shredding that rule in its own behavior on the other. That is why it is so important for the US to be an exemplar of human rights in order that no other country be able to excuse its own human rights violations by claiming that it is modeling itself after America.

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Beijing, China: Will AI consider to protect human rights of the second or the third generation, such as economic and collective rights.

Bill Schulz: Yes, Amnesty is no mobilizing to address social and economic rights as well as the traditional civil and political. This is a welcome change in Amnesty's approach which was instituted just a few years ago. We are convinced that all human rights are interdependant. It does someone very little good to be eligible for a fair trial for example, if he/she is dying of hunger. On the other hand, it is well established that no famine has ever occured in a democracy. So protecting one set of human rights is one of the best ways to protect the other.

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Charlotte, N.C.: I have heard that AI knew of prisoner abuses by U.S. military at Abu Ghraib long before the images were made public. Why didn't AI release this information to the public sooner?

Bill Schulz: AI issued the first report on abuse of Iraqi prisoners in July of 2003. We did our best to gain attention to this problem, both from the government and the press, but were unsuccessful. Unfortunately our report contained no photos!

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Douglas, Wyo.: Thanks for being available like this Bill.

My question: As a admirer of Amnesty International for over 30 years and as a supporting member, I cannot understand why Amnesty doesn't enjoy the immediate respect by the media and by national leaders like President Bush. Why the suspicion? Why not popularity in America?

Bill Schulz: Well, I share your frustation, but human rights are not always popular with those who wield power. Afterall, the point of a human rights regimine is to set limits to power, to protect the less powerful, and to describe the margins beyond which those with power may not go if they are to retain the claim to be representative of a "civilized people." Furthermore, many of the issues that Amnesty campaigns upon here in the United States (and I'm thinking especially of the death penalty and the protection of prisoners' rights) are politically contraversial because some politicians have tried to exploit them for their political advantage. Nonetheless, Amnesty retains the respect of a wide swath of the public and of our political leaders. Yesterday, following the issuance of our annual report, even the spokesperson for the US State Department, while disagreeing with our conclusions, spoke respectfully of much of our work.

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Arlington, Va.: Does the ICC provide the due-process portections of the US Constitution (right to counsel, right of confrontation, bar against self-incrimination, etc.)? If not, how can it be constitutionally permissible for the US to participate?

Bill Schulz: The critical point with regard to the ICC is that any national who is accused of a crime by the court may first be tried in his/her home courts and, if exonerated in a reputable judicial fashion the ICC may not prosecute further. Should it do so however, all accused are guaranteed a wide array of due process protections.

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Davis, Calif.: How do you view the future of the United Nations as a body with the power to be effective? I am especially concerned by the many "US out of UN" bumper stickers seen in parts of the US lately, a reflection of common sentiment mirroring this administration's often blatant disregard for UN authority. Is Amnesty International involved in strengthening UN authority and efficacy?

Bill Schulz: Amnesty works closely with the UN and, though we have been critical of many of its failures, especially those of the UN Human Rights Commission, we see the UN as a critically important body for the promotion of human rights and anytime the UN is disparaged in word or deed by the world's most powerful nation, it is done serious damage. There is no question but what such damage was inflicted prior to the Iraq war of late, however, it appears as if the US may be "getting religion" when it comes to recognizing the importance of the UN for the future of Iraq.

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Washington, D.C.: There are no freedoms in Cuba, Vietnam and North Korea. Yes, liberals supported them more than they do they U.S. Your report is biased.

Bill Schulz: In as much as our reports have been consistantly critical of the human rights records of all three countries, what bias do you refer to?

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Virginia: You stated that you met with Mrs. Rice about human rights issues. How would you grade this administration and their view/practice of human rights both here and around the world? How does it compare to past administrations?

Bill Schulz: Amnesty intentionally does not "grade" either countries or their administrations in order not to involve itself in endless political debate. But there is no question that this administration has done enormous damage to the international framework of support for human rights.

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Ocala, Fla.: Hi, Mr. Schulz:
Yesterday at the White House Press Briefing, Scott McClellan was dismissive of your report. Did Condoleeza Rice offer anything that makes you think they are taking it seriously? With Gen. Miller in charge of the prisons in Iraq, do you believe his methods will alleviate the abuses or just hide them better? Thank you.

Bill Schulz: It is rather customary for the White House to dismiss our reports. Whether Dr. Rice and others there will take our concerns seriously is yet to be known. Certainly General Miller's appointment, given reports about his past involvement with prisons in Iraq, may justifiably lead to skepticism as to whether he is the best person to get to the bottom of this tawdry story.

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Davis, Calif.: Your last response mentioned the benefits of democracy. I am curious when AI began promoting systems of government, as opposed to simply working to get governments, independent of their political system, to enforce human rights standards?

Bill Schulz: AI does not explicitly promote any particular system of government - my reference was to a simple fact concerning famine and democracy. We do our best to stay out of the politics of the countries upon which we report. To the extent that democracies tend to encourage the free functioning of civil society, however, they tend to be more congenial grounds for respect for human rights.

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Rockville, Md.: As bad and ugly things of gotten in Iraq and at Gutanamao Bay, can your organization (realizing that we do not live in a utopian world) accept the fact that the human rights abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan before the U.S. used military force were by far worst and that overall the citizens in these countries and the people of the world are better off because of the successes of the War on Terror (i.e. Removal of Taliban and Saddam)? Although I accept your criticisms of the Bush administration, I simply cannot see how a human rights organization can do anything except 100 percent support both of these wars as they clearly have improved human rights. I am not suggesting you have to ?burn the village to save the village' but progress has been made. I doubt Saddam or Mohammad Omar read your reports and did anything to correct human rights abuses during their reigns? If you don't agree, please help me understand what I missed and what I don't understand. I simply feel your organization needs to be more practical in its criticisms.

Bill Schulz: If your youngest child steals a piece of candy from a drugstore, I presume that you will still chastise him/her, despite the fact that your oldest child may have stolen ten pieces the week before. Amnesty names all human rights abuses in as objective a fashion as possible. We do not compare or rank countries or abuses. Is it worse for country A to kill ten innocent people or for country B to torture just short of death one hundred? These are the kinds of endless moral quandries which distract us from the real issues, namely, what abuses are going on now. That the Taliban or Hussein committed horrific abuses is true and Amnesty called attention to those abuses and demanded action from the world community long before the United States took those abuses seriously. But, that those regimes were abusive provides no moral cover for the defense of the US's own violations.

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Washington, D.C.: What are the sources of AI funding? Is it all from donations? Does AI accept funding from any governments?

Bill Schulz: AI receives no money whatsoever from Governments. Our funding comes overwhelmingly from individuals, with a few foundations making contributions as well.

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Arlington, Va.: In an act of clear ethnic cleansing, the Sudanese government has driven over 1.1 million Sudanese from their homes this past year. Using Arab mercenaries and government aircraft, the people of Darfur (who are mostly black) have had their villages destroyed and have been forced into the desert, where the possibility of genocide looms.

This situation makes Gaza look like Club Med. Why does nobody (i.e. the press, the U.N., etc) seem to care?

Bill Schulz: You are correct that the crisis in Darfur, Sudan is one of the great humanitarian tragedies of the world today, but, until recently the fact that over 2 million have lost their lives in Sudan over the past twenty years was of relatively little concern to the world at large. In part, one suspects it is because Africa is often ignored unless its resources can be exploited. Fortunately the civil war in Sudan may be coming to a close. Now the world must address the catastrophe in Darfur.

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Bill Schulz: Thanks to everyone for your questions. Those who would like to know more about Amnesty may log on www.amnestyusa.org.

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