It's time to talk NFL in The Chat House! The New England Patriots beat the Carolina Panthers, 32-29, in the last seconds of the game. So, what did you think of Super Bowl XXXVIII?
Tony Kornheiserand Michael Wilbon are back for another edition of The Chat House to talk NFL and the Super Bowl.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon
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So come on in!
Submit your questions and comments any time, before or during today's discussion.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
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Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Good afternoon everyone. Mike is here. He's just dropping his bags off in his office. Tony is here too and he's doing PTI prep so we'll get started very soon. Thanks for joining us.--Mary
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DC fan.....:
Was it just me, or was this the "Manic-Depressive" Super Bowl?
All defense to start, then a flurry of sudden offense late in the 2nd....then a crappy, recycled halftime show quickly shifts to outrageous instant classic...
Just as we come down from that the Streaker arrives.....then more defense while we reload the nachos....then an incredible finish!;
This Super Bowl REALLY had it all.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Nice. Anyone else? Comments. Favorite ads? --Mary
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Pittsburgh, Pa.:
Tony and Mike,
I think the main reason Brady got the MVP was his stats. I think that the MVP should have been given to Vrabel or one of Brady's WRs (e.g., Givens).
On several occassions, Brady's teammates outperformed him. In the first half, he threw beind Givens in the endzone, but Givens made a great catch for the TD. The Panthers dropped a couple of interceptions. In the 4th quarter, he overthrew the ball to Brown in the endzone, who was wide open. Also, in the 4th quarter, instead of running the ball in for a TD, he throws an int. with 8 min. left in the game that could have cost his team the game. The defense shut down Davis.
Do we put too much emphasis on the QB getting the MVP?
washingtonpost.com: With Brady, There's No Doubting Thomas (Post, Feb. 2)
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Hi everyone. No, the quarterback was great. He was playing against a great defense. And unlike the other 2 games he played in the playoffs, these Carolina guys hit him hard. He was always calm and always had hit wits about him. Believe me: I know his line played great and Antowain Smith was the best runner on the field. And the receivers played great too. But I thought Brady orchestrated it all beautifully. --Mike
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Dover, Del.:
Michael, in your column you rave about Brady while barely mentioning Delhomme. Who actually had the better game? Here's some hints: Brady's three touchdown passes covered 11 total yards, Delhomme's went for 11, 39, and 85. Brady threw a big interception in the red zone (rookie play), Delhomme threw none. Everyone said the Pats had the tougher defense, and they certainly had the better pass rush. So you tell me, wasn't Delhomme's performance worth more than the throw away line in your piece??
washingtonpost.com: With Brady, There's No Doubting Thomas (Post, Feb. 2)
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: I wasn't writing about Delhomme. I was writing about the winner of the game. There are plenty of places in The Post where you can read about Delhomme. As a columnist you sometimes write broadly, sometimes you zero in. I zeroed in on Brady. Delhomme played damn well after the 1st 13 minutes when he looked like he was about to drown he was so far in over his head. I give him big points for calming himself down in his first Super Bowl and playing fabulously. But tell me this: who won the game again? There are times I write about the losing team cuz there is great drama in that. But, I thought what Brady did was remarkable. --Mike
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Charlotte, N.C.:
Tony & Mike - Don't you think the Redskins should try to trade for DeShaun Foster of the Panthers. I mean Spurrier stupidly gave the Panthers Stephen Davis last year and he had a great year for them. I would not be against trading to get Davis back either but he's getting kind of old and Foster has a lot more upside. Waddaya Think?
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Why in the hell would you think for one-tenth of one second that the Carolina Panthers, whose offense is built around the running game, would trade a 23 yr old back who in a year or two is going to run for 1700 yds? Seriously, do you think the Carolina peoplea re simply in business to facilitate the Washington Redskins? --Mike
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Washington, D.C.:
Wilbon, you were there live, were you just as shocked when you saw what happened at the halftime show?
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: I couldn't see something as small as a breast from my seat in the press box. I was watching it live, but I didn't look at the monitor as it happened. It's not like being in a basketball arena where everything is in relatively close proximity. Yeah, it's kind of shocking, but don't expect me to be mortified b/c I'm not. It's a breast, okay. I think the NFL is acting a little too whiney for my tastes. I think the NFL will just get more pub. --Mike
Justin Timberlake is a no-talent stooge. --Tony
You don't know anything. You wouldn't know Timberlakes from Timberland. --Mike
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Washington, D.C.:
I was struck by how calm Brady always seemed, even under the tightest of circumstances. He just kept at it and it kept working. An earlier commenter pointed out that Delhomme's TD passes were flashier, but I agree with Mike that Brady just owned this game.
washingtonpost.com: With Brady, There's No Doubting Thomas (Post, Feb. 2)
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Thanks. --Mike
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Tucson, Ariz.:
Wilbon,
How can you even compare Brady to Montana, I can't believe I wrote their names in the same sentance. Montana never threw an INT in the big game, and last night Brady threw one at the most critical juncture of the game. He could have iced it right there with a TD, Montana would have found his guy in the end zone. It was actually a horrible throw because he had a man wide open and he under threw him right to the DB. Bottom line Brady can be compared to Farve he can't touch Montana.
-Jai
washingtonpost.com: With Brady, There's No Doubting Thomas (Post, Feb. 2)
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: If you think Joe Montana never threw a big interception during a big game, you are on drugs. I covered those games Montana played in. And he is, in my mind, along w/John Elway, the best QB since Otto Graham. But, don't sit here and say he didn't throw a big interception in a big game. He did. And if you can read what I wrote (link below), you'll see where I said I'm very reluctant to even have the conversation b/c I believe I said Montana is a god to me. But suppose Brady, who is only 26 yrs old, winds up w/4 or 5 Super Bowl rings and winds up MVP 3 or 4 times. He can't touch Montana now, but how do we know what Brady is going to have on his resume at 33 yrs old? --Mike
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Alexandria, Va.:
Is it just me, or do the networks seem obsessed with showing the NFL owner rooting for his team from his luxury box? It seems like I saw more of Bob Kraft last night than Tom Brady - and definitely more than Coach Belichek (who wasn't even looking too shabby). And what ever happened to seeing fans cheer in the stands?
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: I agree w/you completely. I'm w/you entirely. --Mike
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Fairfax, Va.:
So far most of the analysis has focused on Brady and Vinatieri, but I think the major credit for the Pats victory should go to the O-line for protecting Brady and opening holes for the run. Also, Michael, did Peppers turn in the worst performance of the day?
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: The whole line was awesome. And, Bill Belichick took advantage of a talented, but young Peppers but running the ball at him constantly. The O-line was fabulous the entire playoffs. --Mike
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Washington, D.C.:
For a team built around its running attack, don't you think the Panthers got away from it pretty quickly? Considering how well the defense was playing, I was surprised that they didn't stick with it a little longer to try and keep Tom Brady off the field as much as possible.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Good question. The easy answer is yes, they got away from it quickly. But, John Fox had to go w/the guy w/the hot hand and it worked to a great, great degree. --Mike
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Cicero, NY:
Hey Mike- to your comment: "do you think the Carolina peoplea re simply in business to facilitate the Washington Redskins?" My response would be, after taking Shawn Gilbert off our hands for 2 #1 draft picks, yeah. Maybe they are!;
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: I LOVE THAT. Very funny. LOL. --Mike
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JP from Washington, D.C.:
I have heard several Panther players, as well as their head coach, imply that the outcome of the game was based on the fact that the Patriots had the last possession.
I agree that the cat and mouse 4th quarter scoring frenzy does warrant the notion that Carolina could/would have at least tied the game if they had enough time. I also think that with 68 seconds, 3 timeouts and great field position, the Pats had an "easy" scenerio handed to them to ensure that they wouldn't leave any time on the clock for one last Panthers possession, so I'm not proposing the Belechick won the game thanks to his superior clock management skills down the stretch.
But with all that said, don't you think it's a bit classless of the Panther players and coaches to voice this opinion? They were 7-0 in close games, and got beat by team that was better than them at their own crunch-time heroics, correct? I was hoping to hear a greater appreciation for the game they just partook in and/or for the fact that the Patriots made the necessary plays to win the game down the stretch, even if those responses are instructed cliches.
Instead, they essentially voiced: "we would have won if the game was 62 minutes".
Sorry, this ain't the 72 Olympics, Coach Fox.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: JP, they should just shut up. They played a great game. --Mike
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Arlington, VA:
I thought all of the penalties Carolina committed really doomed them. And that kickoff out of bounds really let the Pats drive the short field to kick that field goal. Put me down with everybody else who didn't really think Brady was all that.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: The penalties had nothing to do w/anything. The Casey kickoff was terrible b/c it allowed Brady to start at the 40 w/3 timeouts left and he only had to go 35 yds and he did. --Tony
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New York:
Tony, what are your feelings on Tom Brady being MVP of the NFL this season. Haven't really heard your stand on this and now after the game he had yesterday, I'm sure you've come to a solid conclusion. Thanks, Brian
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Brian, obviously you've never heard me on radio or seen me on PTI b/c for the last 2 months I've said Brady should be the MVP. So don't talk to me now. --Tony
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Pittsburgh, PA:
Mike & Tony:
Obviously, there is some "magic" to Tom Brady. Do you think this will be the end of his good fortune or is there more to come?
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Why do you think this will be the end for Brady? He is now 28-4 in games he started after November 1st and 6-0 in playoffs games. Why would you say that will end? --Tony
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Charlottesville, Va.:
Would it be an overstatement to call the 2 pt. conversion attempt with 12:36 to go a "colossal" blunder. Clearly it forced him to go for 2 again, and if you take those 2 extra points, the Pats would have gone for one to cut the lead to 3 and the field goal becomes a game tying 3 pointer. Seems like a big, obvious mistake from a super coach.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: At the moment the Panters scored the TD and Fox decided to go for 2 for the 1st time, Bill Simms said "this is a mistake, don't chase the points until you have to." Simms was completely on top of it. --Tony
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Landover, Md.:
DeShaun Foster got far too few carries yesterday. I wonder if getting Stephen Davis actually hurt the Panthers by taking playing time away from their true solution at running back. When and how will Carolina phase out Davis, and is Foster the future?
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Stephen Davis had the best year of his career and it is Stephen Davis much more than Foster who helped get the Panthers to the playoffs where they could ultimately get to the Super Bowl. Davis was healthy for this game and when he's healthy, Carolina owes him the carries. --Tony
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Charlottesville, VA:
Seemed like guys were slipping all over the place, receivers coming back to the ball, DBs changing direction, etc. Not a huge deal, I guess, but c'mon fellahs, it's the super bowl!; Can't we get the field in shape?Or was it the goofy pre-game and halftime shows?? I honestly thought it had an impact on the game.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: It did seem like people were slipping an inordinate amount of time. It's a grass field. I don't know why it happened. I know this will sound like a cliche, but at least it was the same for both teams. --Tony
They did. It was like they all had the wrong spikes. --Mike
I'm not an agronomist. --Tony
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Arlington, Va.:
I didn't mind all of the camera shots of Bob Kraft, as long as he wasn't exposing one of his breasts.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Very funny. I like that. --Mike
I thought it was obligatory to show the owners. --Tony
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Falls Church, Va.:
Tony or Mike:
Tony said last Monday that if New England wins this Super Bowl, Belichick will rank a notch below Parcells, Gibbs and Walsh among all-time great NFL coaches. I believe he should rank ahead of Parcells for the following reasons:
1. Belichick now has two Super Bowl wins without Parcells, while Parcells has never won (or even gone to) a Super Bowl without Belichick as his defensive coordinator.
2. Parcells has coached four years without Belichick. His records were 5-11, 10-6, 6-10 with New England and 10-6 with Dallas. His 1994 Patriots played Belichick's Browns in the playoffs and lost. When Belichick rejoined Parcells in New England in 1996, the Patriots went to the Super Bowl.
Belichick still seems to be saddled with some negative baggage from his days in Cleveland, where fans and the media criticized him for not being fan and media friendly. Mike at one time even named Belichick as a prime example of a re-tread coach who was picked ahead of minority coaches like Art Shell for NFL head coaching jobs. Obviously he doesn't do that anymore, but would you go so far as to agree that Belichick is now a better coach than Parcells? I'd be very happy to hear your thoughts. Thanks.
Pat
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Well, Parcells took 2 different franchises to the Super Bowl obviously w/2 different types of players. I don't think you can give credit to his defensive coordinator nd take credit from him. Parcells has never failed as a head coach anywhere. Belichick has in Cleveland. I thnk Parcells may be one the best coaches of all time. What makes me say this is how well he did at different stops. Belichick has taken one team to the Super Bowl 2 times in 3 years so he has aways to go. --Tony
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Boston, MA:
To Dover, Del:
The fact that Brady's 3 TD passes were for 11 yards means nothing. Not to take anything away from Delhomme (who had a great game), but Brady proved that the higher the stakes are, the cooler he gets. Passing stats don't do him justice because he is more than a passer, he is a quarterback.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Just passing this along from one chatter to another.....
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Colorado Springs, Colo.:
Fave ad: the Subway one after the game ended. I am glad they cleared up the "eating Subway doesn't clear you to do wrong to people" misperception. In addition, I really appreciated the "Wang Chung reunion tour" reference...Ralph
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: I loved the Wang Chung ref. --Mary
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Chicago, IL:
Hi guys, I'm a native Washingtonian, living in Chicago now (Mike, I love this city, by the way). I am a die hard Redskins and Art Monk fan. The fact that he has not been elected to the Hall fo Fame is remarkable to me. I have read that one of the reasons he has not been elected is because he has not had any memorable "big games." That is ridiculous. Just off the top of my head, I remember the following "big" games (these stats may not be entirely accurate, but I believe they are close):
--Super Bowl XXVI--7 catches, 113 yards, one TD called back;
--'87 Playoff game at Chicago--2 touchdowns, a bunch of catches & Skins upset Bears at Soldier (the 'Skins by the way, were the team that prevented the Bears from becoming a dynasty);
--'87 NFC Championship game--'Skins lose to Giants in NFC Championship, but Monk was our entire offense, w/ approx. 10 catches
--Entire 1984 season--106 catches, carries 11-5 team. Last game of regular vs. St. Louis at RFK. Needed it to clinch division (the Cards were actually good that year; remember Neil Lomax and Roy Green?). He
has approx. 10 catches, 2 touchdowns, breaking the single season receptions record. Biggest catch was a 3rd an 17 or so to keep drive alive to allow Mosely to kick winning field goal. That year, Madden picked
only one receiver for his All-Madden team. That was Monk.
--'83 regular season game at Dallas--monster game, we get revenge for opening game Monday night collapse. Still remember that touchdown bomb going down the sideline.
--'91 game at Dallas where Lohmiller had like 100 field goals. Huge game from Monk, we barely win .
--'86 game against Minnesota. We win 44-38 on Clark's hitch pattern in OT. Monk, however, had the bigger game, including diving catch in end zone to notch game at 38.
There are dozens of more "big" games. Even if Monk had no "signature big-game moments," that should be irrelevant (what "big" game moments, by the way, do we remember of Steve Largent?). The bottom line is that Monk at one point held every single NFL receiving record (except TD's and yards) on the book, and he did not play in this pass happy day and age. Even with the changes in the game,
he still ranks 5th all-time and HAS MORE CATCHES THAN ANYONE CURRENTLY
IN THE HALL, including about 600 (!;) more than Lynn Swann, who was elected a couple of years ago.
Art Monk is what being a professional is all about--a tireless worker, amazing teammate and role model. I guess what people want these days, however, are obnoxious, self-promoters. If that is the case, then we might be waiting a lot longer for someone like Art Monk to be elected into the HOF. Thanks for letting me vent, and if you could pass along any of these sentiments to any of the HOF electors (esp. "Dr. Z" of SI, who seems to be a Monk detractor), I would appreciate it.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Hope you're enjoying my town, even in frosty February...You don't have to recite Art Monk's resume to me. I was there for many of the moments you recall. I wrote about them. I've interviewed the people beaten by him, the coaches who had to gameplan against him, the defensive backs he torched, the linebackers he blocked. Who do you think made Monk's case in the Hall of Fame meeting Saturday morning?
That would be Len Shapiro, the NFL write for the last dozen or so years for The Washington Post...and me. We made Monk's case. We believe, both of us, that he's a Hall of Famer. Obviously, some in the room do not believe what we believe. I was hoping Bob Hayes got in this year, which would clear some room (and hopefully votes) for Monk. Now, that didn't even happen. Could take awhile. I'm not going to re-state Monk's case here. I think his TDs and Yds/per/catch are not as high as others who will come up for vote because he was asked to do certain things in his coach's offense that didn't involve throwing the ball inside the 20, and running fly patterns...I'm not a happy camper about it, but we've got to saddle up and try it again next year with a slightly different approach.--Mike
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Sterling,Va:
What happened to the big Pepsi Commercial with Brittney Spears, Pink, and Beyonce? There was so much hype about it!;
I give props to Beyonce!; Great version of the National Anthem!;.
Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: Yeah! I know. I missed it. Did they run it? --Mary
We have to go. See you next week. Thanks. --Tony and Mike
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