Dissent Is Not Their Cup of Tea

Sunday, December 2, 2007

On Oct. 13, Ma Shaofang, one of the student organizers of the 1989 Tiananmen Square student-led protests and now a businessman in Shenzhen, was invited to "tea" by agents from the Ministry of State Security. They warned him not to attend a writers conference in Beijing during last month's 17th Party Congress. China's authorities are amid a crackdown on dissent, with arrests for "endangering state security" more than doubling over the past year. Ma, who in 1989 was 10th on the state's list of most-wanted dissidents and who was subsequently imprisoned for three years for his role in the demonstrations, published his conversation with the government agents online. Below are excerpts from his account:

State Security agents: You must be busy lately. Is the business doing well?

Ma: Enough of this. I heard from the "relevant departments" that people like us are not allowed to make big bucks. We're just doing enough to make a living.

We haven't bothered your business, have we?

Really? Unless I remember it wrong, you guys once talked to my partner and said [of me], "If we see him dealing with the company, your business will end."

That's because you did something we didn't want you to do. Over the past few years, you didn't make any trouble for us, so we haven't made any trouble for you.

Is that so? You asked me to come over today. Isn't this trouble?

How can you say this is trouble? We're friends, isn't it okay to have a cup of tea together?

It's a pity we're not sitting here as friends. Enough beating around the bush -- let's talk about why I am wanted here today.

Okay. Are you or are you not planning to go to Beijing in the next few days?

I am. I'm flying over tomorrow. Any problem?

But do you know there's a meeting in Beijing as well? Can you not go?

I know, propaganda every day, how can I not know about the Beijing congress. But does this have anything to do with my business in Beijing? Is there a rule that says citizens cannot go to Beijing around these days?

Oh, if it's only for business, then we won't stop you. We just want to remind you, during special times like this, if you go to attend to your business, that's fine, but don't do anything we wouldn't want you to do.

What do you mean? What are the things you don't want me to do? And why is it that I can't do something simply because you don't want me to do it? I'm a citizen, and I'm responsible for what I do. If I break the law, then I'll be punished according to the law.

We are just kindly reminding you. If you break the law, of course there are corresponding punishments, and it will surely not be like this, sitting here drinking a cup of tea.

You mean interrogation. I have gone through that. But what is this reminder, really? A warning, or a threat?

We're friends, and we don't want our friends to run into trouble.

But, as I said, we are not sitting here as friends. We are the ruled and the ruler.

We don't think this way.

It has nothing to do with whether you think so or not. This is a matter of fact, otherwise you wouldn't be searching me out like this. And as I said over the phone, I don't have time to beat around the bush. You said if I didn't accept this invitation, it wouldn't be good for me.

Okay, we just hope you don't invite trouble. Don't always think that you are always right, criticize this, criticize that. Why can't you be a good civilian?

"Good civilian"? This word isn't appropriate, is it? If I recall, this is the word people used to use during the Japanese occupation [of China], when the Japanese issued "Good Civilian Certificates." I am sure this word is a wrong one. If I guess right, you must mean "obedient citizen?"

Exactly. We don't care what thoughts you have. But if you act, then there will be legal consequences.

The law is to punish those who break the law. Did I break the law?

We are just reminding you not to. . . . We will be frank with you. First, this trip to Beijing: Be careful and don't go to places you are not supposed to go to. If you get into trouble, we will be there and it won't be good for you. Second, we heard that you are attending a writers' association meeting. This is an illegal organization. You should be careful.

Not much to say about the first one. A citizen has the freedom to go anywhere he wants. As for the second one, as far as I know, this association is [a non-governmental organization] under the United Nations, a global organization that has a branch in China. As to whether it's illegal or not, I don't think it's up to you to judge. I am not sure of its legality, but if the relevant authorities deem it illegal, then I will make my own correct decision about it.

All right, that's it for business. Let's now just chat about some unimportant things. According to your understanding, our political system has problems. Does the U.S. political system have any problems?

I have never thought that the U.S. political system was perfect, but it is the best system that has been created in human history. Will there be a better system than America's? Theoretically speaking, it is possible. But I have no idea what it will be like, and I am afraid I cannot prove it theoretically either.

But we still can say, as far as political systems are concerned, that both the U.S. and China have problems. Do you agree?

Yes.

Good. Another question: Chinese people, just like people in other countries, can be divided into good people and bad people, right?

Yes.

The U.S. has both good and bad people as well. Right?

Sure.

That's it. Whether in the U.S. or China, all systems have problems. All people have problems as well. Therefore, the key here is obviously not about the system, but about the problems of people. Therefore, one should not blame this and that problem on the system. Is this right?

No. You are really confused.

Translation provided by China Digital Times, www.chinadigitaltimes.com