IN CONVERSATION . . .

When you first encountered the West, were you surprised?

MJ: I had a sense of alienation even before Tiananmen Square [1989], but only a vague notion of what freedom was. When I first came to the West, I was overwhelmed by the possibilities of being able to speak my mind. The political fear in me evaporated, and I felt my spirit open.

XG: It's different for me because of our ages. My generation was born at the end of the Cultural Revolution, when any illusion or faith was smashed. During the open period of my growing up, we read Western books instead of traditional Chinese literature.

MJ: We read Western books growing up, too: Hemingway and Faulkner.

XG: But we read Charles Bukowski. For a young artist to read Bukowski, that made you an outcast. The rebelling became more about finding your inner voice, less burdened by historical responsibility.

What would have happened to you if you'd stayed in China?

MJ: I would have been sucked in like other writers who stayed, writing crap commercial stuff. I wouldn't have been able to freely express my vision of the world.

So is it lonely to be a Chinese writer in the West?

MJ: It's a double loneliness -- intellectual as well as physical. When I first came to the West, I lost all points of reference, like a pig in a sheep pen: He won't die, but he won't live happily.

XG: There is a comfort in being part of a communal society. Everyone does everything together. But for me, the void is not so intense because I can write in English.

What of the future?

MJ: Wherever we go in life, our destiny is always China. We could end up physically in Europe but spiritually China.

I was in Tibet in 1985, when you, Ma Jian, were painting propaganda posters. How would you have reacted if you had met me ?

MJ: I grew up thinking America was the enemy, so I would have brought you to see one of my posters and invited you to share a bowl of dog food.

As some sort of inscrutable test?

MJ: Exactly.

Daniel Asa Rose's new book, "Larry's Kidney: How I Found Myself Outside Beijing with My Black-Sheep Cousin and his Mail-Order Bride, Breaking Chinese Law to Get Him a Transplant -- and Save His Life," will be published next year.