Mary Ellen Slayter with Deborah Schneider
The Washington Post columnist and guest
Friday, May 6, 2005
2:00 PM
The Washington area is a magnet for smart, ambitious young workers. Post columnist Mary Ellen Slayter writes a regular column for these professionals who are establishing their careers locally, and offers advice online as well.
The transcript follows below.
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Mary Ellen Slayter: Good afternoon, everyone! Today we're going to talk about ... law school! How do you know it's right for you? What do you do when you realize it isn't?
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Mary Ellen Slayter: What made you decide to write the book?
Deborah Schneider: My own personal experience and years of conversations with prospective law students, law students and lawyers. I went to law school without doing nearly enough research or soul-searching about such a huge decision. In fact, I spent far more time doing research when I was buying a car (which cost $15,000) than when I was deciding on law school (which cost $90,000). Looking back, I couldn't believe my decision-making process. Over the years, I've seen how commonly people do what I did -- not do enough research about such a huge career decision -- and I wanted to write a book that would help people make more thoughtful choices.
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Laurel, Md.: I know three lawyers -- they run an insurance agency, a motel and a household while her husband works.
The reality of being a lawyer is -- compared to other professions requiring comparable education, there is the least room below the top for those who weren't near the top of their class. Those who do get employment are supposed to work 2500+ hours a year; which if you do the math is a 50 hour AVERAGE week.
If you're even asking yourself if you want to be a lawyer, then don't. Because being one has to be your #1 life priority if you want to make any sort of living at it.
Deborah Schneider: I agree that you definitely need to think carefully about whether the legal profession is right for you. But let's be clear about the hours. It's true that there are a lot of legal jobs that have demanding hours, but not all jobs in the law require 60, 80-plus hours a week. Some lawyers in, say, government, non-profit public interest legal organizations, some corporations, small firms and other settings can work fairly regular hours. The number of hours you work will vary depending on the type of setting (big firms typically require long days and weekends) and on the particular office environment (some firms make are committed to work-life balance). So if you're thinking about a legal career, it's important to investigate different legal jobs that sound interesting and see what the hours are really like. But don't rule out law just because you think you'll work all the time. In some jobs you will; in others you won't.
Mary Ellen Slayter: Very true. This is one reason why it is very important for people who are considering a career in law to investigate the work lives of actual lawyers. Watching Law and Order faithfully doesn't cut it.
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Fairfax, Va.: Hi. All of this talk about fantastic job creation, particularly in D.C. metro area, is giving many the impression that HIGH-PAYING jobs are everywhere. It seems to me that most of the 'jobs' being created these days are LOW-PAYING service jobs. I do see many people living pretty high -- albeit on two necessary incomes--but does anyone get the sense that most people are just 1/4 paycheck from losing their house? Where are the all of the jobs that actually cover the standard of living here?
Mary Ellen Slayter: What you are saying about low-paying jobs is true in most of the country, but the Washington area is the stark exception to that rule. There are plenty of employers in this area with six-figure jobs going unfilled because they can't find people with the right skill sets to fill them.
I guess it depends on how you define high-paying, though.
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Reston, Va.: I know this is off topic, but I was curious about your thoughts on this. I'm miserable in my current job, both with duties and management. I want to change careers and become a DBA, but I need to study and pass the certification tests first.
Would potential employers be turned off if I quit my current job and did something less demanding part-time while studying for the DBA certification? It would probably be several months before I would be certified. Would this kind of break be detrimental?
Thanks.
Mary Ellen Slayter: What's a DBA?
Regardless, I don't think the break would be a big deal. Just give proper notice and make sure you can actually afford to cut back your hours.
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Mary Ellen Slayter: What do you think makes your book different from all the other books out there targeting would-be lawyers?
Deborah Schneider: It's the only book to focus on the decision-making process and on the critical question of "is a legal career really right for me?." Most books focus on how to get into law school, how to ace the LSAT, how to succeed in law school, how to get a legal job. But ours is the only book that teachers readers how to make a thoughtful, informed decision about whether law is the right career for them, and what type of job (legal or non-legal) will be the best fit for them.
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New York, N.Y.: What sort of prior work experience do companies and/or think tanks look for when hiring? Also, are any sort of specializations in undergraduate degrees required, and are foreign languages a plus?
Mary Ellen Slayter: If you're looking for a research/analysis job, PhDs are a plus. Many have internship programs for lower-level jobs. It really depends on the think tank and what kind of work they do.
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Bethesda, Md.: Hello Mary Ellen Slayter,
I have a nasty habit of isolating myself in the work environment. It truly is not on purpose. I constantly speak to everyone and I am friendly -- at least I think so. But when people ask questions I kind of answer and leave it at that I noticed people tend to give more information than necessarily, but when I tried this, thinking this was the way to get in any circle, I always get this weird silence and look. Can anyone give me tips on putting myself out there more? I feel like I'm missing out the essentials to help me move up ... although I just started when I got out of school this past December.
Mary Ellen Slayter: I'll throw this out there for the chatters. For what it's worth, though, know that your awkwardness is normal. You haven't been in the workforce that long.
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Washington, D.C.: Thanks for doing this chat! Your book has gotten great reviews.
Good question -- should you really get a law degree? While the education one receives in law school provides valuable skills, it is the only degree that is specifically discriminated against (No JD's please) in job advertisements. This is true even when the skills would be an asset to the position (example, JD as paralegal, trademark searcher, etc.)
Could you please explain why this is and what someone in this position can do to overcome this?
Thanks again!
Mary Ellen Slayter: I can't say I have ever seen this in a job ad ...
Deborah Schneider: I haven't seen that in a job ad, either! But sometimes when lawyers or recent law school graduates decide they don't want to practice law they may encounter some resistance from non-legal employers. This isn't always the case, though. But your goal is to convince a non-legal employer that you are genuinely interested in this non-legal position and that you have the skills necessary to succeed at the job. They will ask why you don't want to practice law, so you need to have a thoughtful answer prepared. You also need to spell out how the skills you developed in law school (research, writing, negotiating, analytical skills, etc.) will be an asset in the non-legal job you're applying for. The best thing to do is to find a non-practicing lawyer who is in the job you want and ask them exactly how they marketed themselves for the position. There non-practicing lawyers in every field, so that shouldn't be that hard to do.
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Los Angeles, Calif.: I'm graduating from law school next week, and wanted to share what I've learned -- don't go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. I know, seems obvious, but I know too many people (often, the ones who came to law school straight from college) who went because they couldn't think of anything else to do and thought it would be a good liberal arts degree. It's not -- it's very vocational and at times not very intellectually challenging (a lot of work, but that's a different thing). But if you know you want to be a lawyer, law school is not the terrible place that popular culture suggests.
Deborah Schneider: I would say don't go to law school unless you've determined that you want to practice law, or that getting a law degree will be a real asset in some non-practicing job that you're excited about. Law school is so expensive now that you need to do a cost-benefit analysis and don't simply view it as a graduate liberal arts degree. Congratulations on your upcoming graduation and good luck!
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Schenectady, N.Y.: Have you found any correlation between a lawyer's satisfaction with career choice and the primary stated reason for becoming a lawyer? For example ... primarily to improve society or help people? to make a lot of money? for the social status? for the excitement? as a default degree after college? Which of the above reason is most likely to lead to dissatisfaction?
s/ David Giacalone, f/k/a ethicalEsq.
Deborah Schneider: It depends (a classic lawyer answer). A lawyer's job satisfaction generally depends on factors such as whether they enjoy their day-to-day work, their co-workers and work environment, and whether their job is in line with their priorities and values. Some who went to law school with the stated mission of helping society may wind up in a public interest legal job where they don't like the work or the people, or where they get burned out or are struggling financially. Others land in public interest jobs that they love. Some lawyers go to law school to make money, wind up in big firms with big salaries and are happy because they fit into that environment. Others arrive in those high-paying jobs and are miserable because they dislike the work or the work environment. Job satisfaction is more a matter of whether your work is a fit for your personality and preferences. That said, I've typically seen more unhappy lawyers at large firms because of the hours, stress and the nature of the work.
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Mary Ellen Slayter: What do you think are the most common mistakes people make in deciding whether to go to law school?
Deborah Schneider: Two common mistakes are (1)not carefully assessing your reasons for going to law school and (2)not doing enough research into what law school and the legal profession are all about and whether law is the right path for you. In terms of assessing reasons, I often hear people say they're going to law school because: they don't know what else to do, the economy sucks, they hate math and blood so they've ruled out an MBA or med school, they're parents are pushing them to get a JD, "everyone else is taking the LSAT," or they've heard "you can do anything with a law degree." Yikes. In terms of research, they don't sit in on law school classes to see what they're like. They don't accurately calculate what law school is really going to cost. They don't talk to any lawyers (!) and don't get any real-world exposure to the legal profession by doing an internship or job in a legal setting. Those are all mistakes and they are very common.
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Washington, D.C.: Deborah -- What are some questions I could ask myself to decide if law school is right for me?
Deborah Schneider: The overarching question is this: "Is getting a law degree going to get me into a job I will enjoy?" That is, are there legal jobs that I want to do? Are there non-practicing or non-legal jobs that I want where a J.D. will be a significant asset? That's the starting point. Then as you investigate legal, and possibly non-legal jobs, that sound interesting ask yourself "Can I see myself doing this work every day and enjoying it?" Law school is a lot of time, money and effort so you want to make sure that it's going to lead you to a career you enjoy.
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Alexandria, Va.: Good afternooon ladies, I've not read Ms. Schneider's book, but as a practicing attorney who oftens fields career questions from college and law students, I would second the sentiment that you must have realistic expectations of what a law degree will do for you rather than fanatsies based on Ally McBeal or celebrity trials. I worked in a law firm doing filing and typing for two summers during college. I saw first hand what the practice of law was about, then I decided to go to law school. By the way, having typed, filed, and made coffee for the (this is in the dark ages) all male lawyers, I can function on days my secretary is out sick or on vacation while the guys stare at a copy machine or coffee pot and have no idea how they work. Sometimes I even take pity on them.
Mary Ellen Slayter: You know that coffee pot helplessness is a ruse, right?
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D.C.: I'm heading to law school next August, and I have heard more warnings than I care to think about. But I would like to share this: People who go to law school straight from undergrad (or after a year as a paralegal) generally tell me how terrible it is. They tell me not to go, it's going to be the worst three years of my life.
But people who have another career (like myself) and build a life before going to law school are usually pretty encouraging. They say it's tough, a lot of work, but very intellectually stimulating and rewarding. So ... whatever that's worth.
Deborah Schneider: I think that's right. Taking time off after college and working in the real world is almost always better than going straight to law school from undergrad. Good luck!
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Bethesda, Md.: Your response that not everyone who is a lawyer works long hours is incomplete. Yes, nonprofit and jobs with the government are rewarding and with reasonable hours, but with the amount of debt most people have after law school and college, they may not be feasible choices. $90,000 of debt constrains your choices. I make sure I tell anyone considering law school to consider that.
I always knew I wanted to work on public interest environmental issues. So I made sure that I picked a law school with a low income public interest debt forgiveness program. I now work for an environmental nonprofit and am VERY happy with my job. I am not a lawyer -- I do policy analysis -- but legal training is helpful to my job.
And I paid off my debt early! Yippee!
Deborah Schneider: That's a great point, and that's great you love your work. If you want to do public interest law, it's important to choose your law school carefully and pick the one that is supportive of public interest law students. Ask a lot of questions of the schools you're considering. Do they have loan repayment assistance programs or loan forgiveness programs? Do they provide stipends for unpaid summer internships? How many of their alumni go into public interest after graduating? What other resources do they have for public-interest minded students? Equal Justice Works is a great organization if you're interested in public interest law.
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Indianapolis: As a lawyer and now a judge, when I am asked this question, I generally say "go to law school only if you can't think of another thing you would rather be doing in three years." Although there are many people who go to law school with the intent of using the training for other purposes (I hear my own son is thinking of doing that) I personally found law school far too grueling to attend for any other reason that wanting to be a lawyer very, very much. I have not read your book, but the very fact that you have written it is a valuable service.
Mary Ellen Slayter: Thanks for sharing your story!
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Centereach, N.Y.: What would you say are the most important questions to ask yourself before applying to law school?
Deborah Schneider: These are the questions and, happily, the book devotes a chapter to each of them:
Why am I considering law school?
What's law school all about?
Is law the right career for me?
What do attorneys do and where do they work?
Where can I get some hands-on legal work experience?
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D.C.: Today's chat is just in time for me. I've been working as a paralegal for a number of years now, in big and small firms (definitely prefering the small). My ambition has always been to go to law school, but now I am beginning to wonder. For one, there are countless small firms in the metro area, but they all seem to hire via word-of-mouth and networking rather than more traditional methods. While networking is certainly an option, its hardly one I'm willing to risk 3 years and $100K on! I am open to working in the legal field without being an attorney, however, is there anything out there that is above being a paralegal without being an attorney?
Deborah Schneider: Here's my short answer: two books to check out are What Can You Do With A Law Degree? by Deborah Arron and America's Greatest Places to Work with a Law Degree by Kimm Walton. Despite their titles, they offer a lot of suggestions of ways to work in law not as a practicing attorney.
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Deborah Schneider: I know we're wrapping up and I'm sorry we have to end this discussion. You've asked great questions and if you didn't get your questions answered, you're welcome to write me at deborah@shouldyoureally.com and check out my website's resources at
http://www.shouldyoureally.com
In closing, keep in mind my story about researching my car more than researching law. Remember to treat law school like a large purchase. You wouldn't buy a car without test driving it, so be sure to test drive law before you buy.
Thanks very much for having me join you today!
Mary Ellen Slayter: Thanks again, Deborah, for sharing your wisdom with us today!
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