Bryan Myers
Producer, PBS NOW
Friday, April 29, 2005
11:00 AM
The release of photographs from inside Abu Ghraib prison and their display in the media shocked Americans and added fuel to the controversy about American detainees. Among those was the infamous photo of a man wearing a black hood and attached to a series of wires. Haj Ali , who now works for a prisoner's association, claims that he was the man in the photograph and describes his experience at Abu Ghraib to the PBS newsmagazine NOW.
NOW's interview with Haj Ali airs Friday night on PBS (check local listings). Read more on
Producer Bryan Myers was online to discuss the program.
A transcript follows.
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Anonymous: My first reaction upon seeing the photos from Abu Ghraib were to take some pillows from my couch and start throwing them all over my house. Not only did this shatter American credibility when negotiating with other countries about human rights - it delegitimized the American invasion from an already deeply flawed reason for invasion.
It was a massive failure that has Congress just shrugging its shoulders and saying "that's old news."
I can assure you the people in those prisons don't think its old news. People have long memories, and we will regret our actions there.
Bryan Myers: Some may see it as old news, however, we are now just learning about many of the instances of abuse and torture, as the government documents are just starting to come to light, the result of lawsuits and efforts by the media. If you've been reading the papers regularly, you know there has been a steady drip of new stories with each passing day. As long as that continues, this story will live. Many people we spoke with are of the opinion that this issue won't pass until the Administration makes an effort to deal with it in a comprehensive and concerted fashion, such as a call for special Congressional hearings or the appointment of an independent counsel.
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Arlington, Va.: In a few polls soon after the photos of Abu Ghraib were released, a large percentage of Americans, almost a majority, indicated that they had no problem with torture. Shouldn't this be the most disturbing thing to come out of this scandal?
Bryan Myers: We're still pretty close to 9/11, as such, the wounds are still pretty fresh. I think you are right, many people don't seem too bothered by Abu Ghraib or other allegations of abuse and torture that have come to light. As one FBI agent told us, many Americans seem to have feelings akin to revenge--i.e., "good for them." However, I also don't think most Americans realize the extent and magnitude of the allegations of abuse. This wasn't just Abu Ghraib, but Guantanamo, Pakistan, Bagram, and all sorts of other places detainees were being held, and many places we don't even know about. What is very telling about the government documents that have come to light as a result of Freedom of Information Request is that much of the allegations don't come from the detainees themselves, but lower ranking soldiers or other government employees, like FBI agents, alerting their superiors, saying, "You need to really know what is going on here."
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Wheaton, Md.: If you're truly concerned with human rights, why not do a report on the countless atrocities committed against the Iraqi people by Hussein's regime? The fact that you only show concern about Abu Ghraib proves your network cares less about human rights than they do about bashing the U.S. government.
Bryan Myers: In response, a couple of observations...First, it's well known that Saddam Hussein was a very bad dictator who committed very bad acts. Secondly, we are a program on American television for an American, not Iraqi, audience. And as American journalists, our obligation is, first and foremost, to examine the actions and policies of our leaders. Make no mistake, there is a hugely profound issues at stake here: Are we going to be a people true to the values on which our country was founded? Former Navy Admiral John Hutson said it best in our interview with him: we are not a nation bound by one common ethnicity, nor bound by one common religion. We are not a nation that bows down before a monarch or emperor. What has always united Americans is our belief in the "rule of law"--the notion that our laws are applied to everyone, without bias or prejudice. The "rule of law" isn't a "rule" if we only apply those laws when it is easy and convenient, or only apply them to people we like. It is living within the law when it is hard and difficult that defines who we are and who we want to be.
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Bronxville, N.Y.: In your opinion, why has Gen. Sanchez been able to walk away from any charges and even retain command in civilian military operations? Clearly, he authorized the use of additional interrogation techniques beyond the original 17 approved by the Geneva convention. Also, can you speak about the additional interrogation techniques (beyond GC) that are still being used after the Abu Ghraib abuses? Furthermore, what are your thoughts about how Military Police and Military Intelligence interfaced in the interrogation of prisoners, i.e. softening up, etc.
Bryan Myers: As to why General Sanchez has not been more strongly reprimanded, I do not know. However, there has been a concern expressed that he may have committed perjury in his Congressional testimony when he stated he did not approve harsh interrogation techniques. Documents recently came to light showing he did approve such techniques. Regarding the role of the military police vs. the interrogators, there has been reporting by other sources (see the Wall Street Journal of Jan 26th) suggesting that there was some tension between the MP's and the interrogators at Guantanamo Bay, with the MP's displeased with some of the things they were seeing.
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Washington, D.C.: Mr. Myers, I'm very much looking forward to tonight's broadcast. How did you get access to Ali Haj? And how can you be certain he is indeed the man behind the black hood? Thank you.
Bryan Myers: While researching our story, it was our desire to interview a former detainee about his/her first hand experiences. At one point, my associate on this story, Na Eng, spoke with an organization called Christian Peacemakers which has interviewed and documented the stories of many former Iraqi detainees. It was Christian Peacemakers who suggested we contact Ali. We did, calling him at his home in Iraq. As far as the issue of, "How do we know?": The U.S. military confirms Ali was indeed a prisoner at Abu Ghraib at the height of the abuse scandal. Ali has also turned over to his lawyers a blanket similar to the one worn by the man in the photo. The man in the photo also seems to have a deformity to his left hand--Ali has such a deformity. Lawyers and human rights groups have also vouched for his story. However, all that said, there is no way we, at this point, can say with absolute certainty he is the man, and in our report, we make clear that this is his account of what he believes happened.
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Oslo, Norway: Has Haj Ali attempted to seek compensation from the U.S.?
Bryan Myers: Yes, he is a plaintiff, along with other former Iraqi prisoners, in a suit against TITAN and CACI, the two private contractors that participated in interrogations and whose employees are alleged to have participated in the abuses at Abu Ghraib.
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Washington, D.C.: What happened to the prisoners in Abu Ghraib sickened me and made me embarrassed to be an American. I consider the soldiers and their leaders to be in the same lot as the 9/11 terrorists.
If you still have contact with them, please pass my condolences on to the people affected by our troops mistreatment.
Bryan Myers: We will let Haj Ali, the man featured in our story, know that you are thinking of him and his family.
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Denver, Colo.: This report by NOW has already, as you might expect, been criticized by a variety of blogs that say there is no way this person can definitively claim he's "the" prisoner in the famous photograph. So, how did you confirm it?
Bryan Myers: See answer to similar question.
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Arlington, Va.: Why was Haj Ali imprisoned?
Bryan Myers: Haj Ali was a mayor of a Baghdad suburb and a member of the Baath party. At the time of his arrest, American troops were arresting many religious and civic leaders suspected of having information about the insurgency. It's assumed he was arrested in that sweep. Ali says he had nothing to do with the insurgency. According to Ali, once taken to Abu Ghraib it was after his repeated denials that his interrogations got harsher and harsher.
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New York, N.Y.: Can you outline which official and unofficial government inquiries into torture at Abu Ghraib have been authorized? Also, what was the role of the Navy in disputing the approval of additional interrogation techniques authorized by Donald Rumsfeld?
Bryan Myers: Boy, love to help you, but, there have numerous government investigations into abuse allegations at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere--too many to list here. However, the criticisms of those investigations are twofold: that the military is not able to investigate itself, and that none of them have focused on the possible culpability of officers and DOD officials "up the food chain," so to speak. The ACLU's website may provide a list and synopsis of the inquiries conducted so far.
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Annandale, Va.: "Hussein was a bad dictator who committed very bad acts..." that's like saying Hitler was a bad man who committed very bad acts..now let's get back to bashing Americans you infer.
I'm an ex-National Guardsman whose unit is now deployed overseas fighting for freedom and the freedom of poor oppressed Iraqis and Afghan people. When I see the killing that occurs of the Iraqi people and American soldiers--the beheadings and utter murder and then I compare it to the humiliation that these prisoners endured that you show as so horrible I just realize how absurd and out of touch with reality the media is.
Bryan Myers: Are you suggesting that because the insurgents in Iraq are committing horrible crimes, we, as reporters, should ignore abuse and torture committed by Americans? A willingness to admit our own mistakes is the essence of the democracy you talk about. You also characterize the treatment of the detainees as "humiliation." The Army itself it is investigating 27 homicides of prisoners in American custody. Most would not consider homicide as "humiliation."
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Washington, D.C.: The images from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay are very disturbing. It seems to be hypocritical to say that we're bringing them democracy and the rule of law, when our tactics seem little different from Saddam's. It is a very dangerous precedent to use the label "enemy combatant" to suspend legal rights and civil treatment (Geneva Convention). What is to stop the government from creating and "enemy of the state" category to deny its own citizens the right of due process?
Bryan Myers: Absolutely, one of the criticisms of the administration's policy regarding the detainees has been how it has created new words and terminology to define the legal status (or non-legal status) of the detainees--"Enemy combatants" or "unlawful combatants" being just two examples. If I may make a book recommendation, pick up a copy of "The Torture Papers: The Road to Abu Ghraib." It is a compendium of all the administration memos and e-mails on this subject, in which there are repeated discussions of how to keep the detainees beyond the reach of the American courts and the protections of the Geneva Conventions. To many we spoke with, including former government lawyers, this demonstrates an awareness on the part of the Administration that they were up to something sly and not quite right from the get go.
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Washington, D.C.: I suspect that one reason the Abu Ghraib stories have not provoked much outrage in the U.S. is because the story has been dominated by incidents of humiliation and intimidation, rather than physical harm. Legal definitions aside, many Americans may have been repulsed by the hoods and naked pyramids, but not disposed to refer to those abuses as "torture" (particularly when seen against the beheadings and other physical crimes that the insurgency has carried out against Western hostages).
How much of the abuses at Abu Ghraib involved physical harm? Do you think the Western media has done an adequate job of publicizing that portion of the scandal?
Bryan Myers: There are numerous allegations of extremely abusive physical treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib--stories of things like beatings and electrocutions. There is at least one known instance of a prisoner having died at Abu Ghraib. The photos that we are all so familiar with don't illustrate the full magnitude of what is alleged to have occurred, hence, some people's inclination to dismiss what was going on as something of a fraternity prank.
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Elkhart, Ind.: Have been reading the questions and you might want to let people know that very good sources for following investigations on torture and abuse are available at Human Rights First (on line), Human Rights Watch, also on line, as well as the ACLU.
Bryan Myers: As you request, I pass your information along.
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New York, N.Y.: Isn't the classification of prisoners as non-combatants at the heart of Bush's authorization to ignore the Geneva Convention? Do you have any information on who is deprived of Geneva Convention protections?
Bryan Myers: It's the administration's decision to not classify them as "prisoners of war" that goes to the heart of their decision to not apply the Geneva Conventions. Had they determined them to be POW's, they would have been bound by the Conventions. I refer you to a January 19, 2002 document in which Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld informs the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are "not entitled to prisoner of war status" under the Geneva Convention. Justice Department officials also ratified that opinion, arguing that Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are kind like of "pirates," and don't deserve protection because they aren't a legitimate nation state. However, critics point out that the United States recognized the Taliban government of Afghanistan as being a legitimate government prior to 9/11.
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Santa Rosa, Calif.: I've read a few scattered reports that the Department of Defense has a lot more photos of torture, and that these photos depict even more heinous acts (including rape) than the ones that have been publicly released. It was written that these were some of the images shown to Congress several months ago. Have you heard about this? Any truth to it?
Bryan Myers: I have not heard about any of the specific images which you mention; however, it is clear we have yet to see all government records related to the treatment of detainees. For instance, there are videotapes from Guantanamo which purportedly show so-called Swift Reaction Teams beating prisoners. The ACLU has filed a Freedom of Information request for those videos; that request is pending.
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Bryan Myers: It's been a real pleasure to hear from everyone, and for the opportunity to answer some thought-provoking questions. I hope you get a chance to watch "NOW" tonight. Thank you. Bryan Myers.
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Anonymous: This is a question for everyone: is this the way we want Arabs and Muslims to view Americans and Christians, as a culture and religion that is supposed to stress love and respect, even towards our enemies?
Bryan Myers: One final thought from a reader to pass along...
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