Deep Throat Revealed

The Washington Post Tuesday confirmed that W. Mark Felt, a former number-two official at the FBI, was "Deep Throat," the secretive source who provided information that helped unravel the Watergate scandal in the early 1970s and contributed to the resignation of president Richard M. Nixon.

Ronald Kessler , author of "The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI," was online Wednesday, June 1, at 2 p.m. ET to discuss Felt's admission and the history of the FBI during the Watergate era.

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washingtonpost.com: Thank you for joining us today. Can you give us a little bit of background on Mark Felt and his history at the FBI?

Ronald Kessler: Thank you for having me. Felt joined the FBI in 1942 and spent most of his career in counter-intelligence and catching spies who engaged in espionage. He was a lawyer, also. He rose through the ranks both because he was very smart and competent, but also because he knew how to flatter J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI director. That was very important in the bureau.

He was number two in the bureau at the time of Watergate and he was in charge of the Watergate investigation, which meant that he was totally informed every day on new developments.

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Beverly Hills, Calif.: What was your first reaction to the news and did it confirm your gut feeling about the identity of Deep Throat?

Ronald Kessler: To tell you the truth, I felt a little down because I knew that I would be deluged with media requests.

Certainly there's nothing like actual confirmation and it was remarkable to think that someone in that position was helping Woodward and Bernstein. At the same time, I felt absolutely sure that he was Deep Throat. Not only because he was in such a perfect position to provide the information, but more importantly, when I went to interview him in 2001 for my book, "The Bureau: The Secret HIstory of the FBI," his daughter Joan told me that Woodward had been out about a year and a half earlier under rather mysterious circumstances.

She said Bob showed up unannounced and that Felt considered him a friend and that Bob had his limo parked 10 blocks away. Now, why would Bob be seeing Felt in the first place and why would he go to such pains to keep his meeting a secret? In my mind, there was only one explanation which I gave in the book: that Mark Felt was in fact Deep Throat.

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Washington, D.C.: How do you feel about some people's characterization of Felt as a traitor?

Ronald Kessler: People who say that, I don't think, realize how scary this time period was in our history. Richard Nixon was actively engaged in not only covering up his own criminal involvement in Watergate, but in trying to supress the FBI investigation. I would not have put it past him to tear up the Constitution because he was ordering illegal break-ins, wiretaps, investigations -- so I think Mark Felt did a public service by making sure the FBI investigation would not be supressed, getting this out in the public through Woodward. It was also true that Felt was offended that Nixon had appointed L. Patrick Grey as acting director over him. But he had legitimate grounds for feeling that Grey should be ousted since Grey himself had engaged in Watergate improprieties. So even though he may have had a personal ambition to become FBI director himself, from the FBI standpoint he had a legitimate reason for hoping Nixon would be gone and that Grey would be gone with him.

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Washington, D.C.: Were Mr. Felt's "deep background" discussions with The Post illegal at the time? That is, by divulging information garnered during an ongoing investigation, was he technically breaking the law?

Ronald Kessler: Very good question. If he was not disclosing information from the grand jury, and I don't think he was, then he may not have been violating criminal law, but certainly could have been fired.

I think he was careful in what he told Woodward. He tried to steer him in the right direction and reassure him that he was on the right track instead of giving alot of info.

The truth was that Woodward and Bernstein had lots of sources because they were doing the digging. I sat next to Carl during Watergate and every night Woodward would go over to his desk because Karl was the writer and would write the stories and the two would argue and discuss their sources, so I know they had many and would stay up to midnight knocking on doors and most of the stories could have run even without Felt's help.

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Grand Rapids, Mich.: Have things changed at the FBI to make it more or less likely for the possibility nowdays of someone with the position that Felt had to be a whisleblower? (E.g., do all FBI employees undergo lie detector tests, etc.?)

Ronald Kessler: Well things have become far tighter at the FBI and so I think it would be pretty inconceivable that this sort of ongoing leaking could occur now without the person being caught.

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Columbia, S.C.: Mr. Kessler, do you feel Mark Felt has been pressured by his family to reveal his identity as Deep Throat due to his declining health and the potential to enjoy some sort of financial gain?

Ronald Kessler: I definitely think the impetus for this disclosure came from the family. I think they are proud of him and want him to be recognized publicly before he dies. It seems that if they have a monetary interest, they certainly are a little late in trying to make money.

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Monroe, N.Y.: There seem to be many parallels between Nixon's fight with the FBI and the present Administration's anger with the CIA.

Have memories of Watergate created institutional mechanisms that prevent another Deep Throat from influencing political matters?

Thanks.

Ronald Kessler: I don't see Woodward's and Bernstein's stories as a manifestation of a political battle. This was a criminal act -- a break in -- and they were two low level reporters who simply did the hard work to follow the money and get the story. I think the people who helped them in general were concerned about the future of the country and really cooperated with them because it was in the best interests of the country.

Both the FBI and the CIA are under much tighter control now than they were during this period, so in terms of abuses that went on -- I just don't see that they are going to happen because the fact is they have not happened since the days of J. Edgar Hoover.

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Coralville, Iowa: Before you interviewed Felt's daughter in 2001, did you think it was Felt, or had you thought it was someone else?

Ronald Kessler: I did think it was Mark Felt. Just based on all my knowledge of the FBI and how Watergate went down.

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Ronald Kessler: I was hoping that he might admit it to me since this was really the only on the record interview he'd given as far as I knew, but he said he was not Deep Throat.

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Vienna, Va.: Do you believe that whistleblowing was characteristic of the way Mr. Felt led his FBI career? Do you believe that his exposure of the Watergate crimes were truly instigated for ethical reasons or do you think he could have had other motivations, such as perhaps politics? If so, what do you believe would have prompted his revellations to Woodward and Bernstein?

By the way, great book!

Ronald Kessler: Mark Felt did give Woodward information about the shooting of George Wallace just before the Watergate break in so that shows that he was willing to cooperate regardless of Watergate. Woodward is just a very tenacious reporter who seems to always go to the top of an organization to get his information and I think we have to give him a lot of credit to him for knowing how to get that information out of them.

I think the way Woodward and Bernstein did these stories -- never relying on one source, always obtaining corobboration, presenting the stories honestly, and being extremely concerned about inaccuracies -- is a model of how journalism should work and I think stands in contrast to a lot of the journalism we see today.

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Arlington, Va.: Did Felt and Gordon Liddy know each other at the FBI ? Is there anything interesting about the relationship or what Liddy is saying now ? I think I heard that Liddy was skeptical of something having to do with the announcement of Felt.

Thanks.

Ronald Kessler: No, they did not know each other at the FBI.

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Boyds, Md.: How do you suppose Felt reconciles his not dissimilar criminal activities relating to the Weather Underground?

Ronald Kessler: Actually, I think the indictment of Mark Felt was unfair because what he did -- which was to engage in break-ins that were not authorized by search warrants -- was directed by the director of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, and was something that hundreds of FBI agents engaged in, thinking it was entirely proper because it had been authorized by the director.

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Bentonville, Ark.: Pat Buchanan condemns Mr. Felt for leaking information to the press and lying about it later. Buchanan said that Felt should have just resigned his position in protest to how the White House was covering up the Watergate affair and "blow the whistle" at that point. In your opinion, had Felts resigned in protest, would the course of subsequent events led to Nixon's resignation as well?

Ronald Kessler: You know, it's really impossible to say whether the resignation would or would not have occurred. The FBI was conducting a criminal investigation which did lead to many convictions, but the question was whether Nixon would have been able to supress it if these public disclosures were not coming out.

I think Woodward and Bernstein could've done most of the stories without his help. But it was so scary to go after the president of the U.S. and was a criminal and using the government to cover himself, and it was so important to get assurance from the inside that they were on the right track.

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Gambier, Ohio: Do you think W. Mark Felt acted as a 'clearing house' of info coming from other sources ~ White House, Pentagon, etc. ~ or could there have been more than one person that Woodward and Bernstein led to believe that 'only they' were Deep Throat? I'm thinking we may see others come forth and say, "Hey, I'M Deep Throat - not him!"

Ronald Kessler: Woodward and Bernstein had many sources, some of whom have since publicly declared themselves -- for example, a bookkeeper, but no one cares about those sources because they didn't have a sexy name.

The name was given by Howard Simons, who was then managing editor of the Washington Post and had a wry sense of humor. So there's been much more focus on Deep Throat than really was warranted -- at the same time he was important in the Watergate investigation.

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Beverly Hills, Calif.: Congrats again (I sent you a congrats email yesterday morning). With so much written about whether or not DT was essential to the unravelling of the entire Watergate story, the focus has shifted from who and wow, to whether DT was important at all. Many point to the Senate and the Judiciary, and the other sources Woodstein relied on. But, isn't it true that without DTs confirmations of initial source material that Woodstein would have found it especially difficult to gain momentum, and bully others into giving information? There is a tipping point, and wasnt DT essential to that? What is your take?

Ronald Kessler: I would estimate that Deep Throat accounted for 25 percent of what actually came out. In the book, "All the President's Men," they honestly portray what his importance was and you can tell from that that he was not critical to doing the story.

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Falls Church, Va.: OK, all I want to know is: Have you been able to figure out how Felt put his "sign" (i.e., the clock) in Woodward's copy of the New York Times? THAT is the real mystery now!

Ronald Kessler: No idea, but the fact that Mark Felt instructed Woodward to communicate with him by moving his plants around is another little indication that Deep Throat was Mark Felt, because he spent most of his career in counter-intelligence in the FBI, and these techniques are classic ways for spies to communicate.

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Mount Laurel, Md.: Mr. Kessler, Isn't it true that Felt's Presidentially appointed superior at the FBI, Patrick Gray, was found to have deliberately destroyed documents related to the Watergate investigation?

Ronald Kessler: Yes.

That is one reason why Mark Felt had a valid reason for wanting Grey to be removed -- aside from his own personal ambition to be FBI Director.

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Beverly Hills, Calif.: What can you tell us about W. Mark Felt that we don't know or haven't already read in The Post or elsewhere? In other words, tell us something original and break some news here!

Ronald Kessler: When I interviewed Mark Felt he had dementia from strokes and I felt it would be very hard to rely on what he said. When I mentioned Bob Woodward, he thought that Woodward was a government lawyer, so how much he was involved in deciding to go public I really don't know.

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Detroit, Mich.: What enduring personal lessons are there in Watergate, not just for the media and government, but for all of us? How can we understand that this event brought out the best and worst in different people?

Ronald Kessler: It certainly goes to the heart of the ethical question that one might face when one's ultimate superiors are engaged in wrongdoing and yet we are not supposed to disclose information publicly.

If you go to what happened in Nazi Germany, the excuse that is given by many Nazis was they were just following orders and in the case of the FBI they were proceeding with their investigation, but yet Mark Felt knew that Nixon could have stopped it at any time. Nixon did fire the Watergate special prosecutor and made up some story about CIA secrets that should not be revealed and therefore the FBI should not proceed with this investigation. So given all that I think Felt made the right choice in investigating with WOodward for the benefit of the country.

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Manassas, Va.: When did Felt leave the FBI? How did it end?

Ronald Kessler: Felt left the FBI when he was indicted and then he was pardoned, so in the end he did not have a criminal record.

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Boise, Idaho: You mention your relationship with Carl. In 'All the President's Men' he said he was planning to take the vacation time The Post owed him and ride his bike across country when he changed plans due to the Watergate work. Do you know if Carl ever did his cross-country bike ride?

Ronald Kessler: I'm quite sure he did not. One of the little footnotes to this is that the editors asked me twice to replace Bernstein on the investigation a week or two after the break in because they were mad at him over his handling of his expenses. He, for example, rented a car and left it in a parking garage and forgot about it. A month later, the Post got a bill.

I brilliantly declined. I like to do my own investigative stories, but Carl was known as a free spirit so there are always stories about him.

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Washington, D.C.: The FBI engaged in some pretty awful practices from 1942-1972. Mr. Felt did not blow the whistle during his rise to No. 2 and was even convicted of complicity. Please comment.

Ronald Kessler: The FBI really thought that they were authorized to do these illegal wiretaps and illegal break ins because J. Edgar Hoover and frequently attorneys general approved them. It was a strange time when Congress did not engage in oversight to any great degree and everybody was afraid of J. Edgar Hoover because he literally had blackmail material about members of Congress and presidents. It was a totally different era.

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Silver Spring, Md.: If Hoover had stayed alive, would there have been a Watergate investigation or would it all have been covered-up?

Ronald Kessler: I think it would have been covered up. No question.

Hoover, first of all, almost never investigated public officials and he always wanted to have blackmail material on presidents. So this is something he would've known about and collected information about, let Nixon know that he knew about it and thereby further ensured his own job security.

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Washington, D.C.: Woodward was a U.S. Naval officer out of Yale ROTC. His last job in the military was as a briefer to Gen. Haig. Does that give him the edge?

Ronald Kessler: I think it certainly helped him develop contacts, but he also boldly went to the top of any organization and knew how to give the impression that he knows more than he really does and would get people to confirm information. That was his real talent.

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Alexandria, Va.: If Felt was morally appalled by what he was seeing, were there other honorable avenues before him or was leaking his only choice?

Ronald Kessler: At that time there were very few choices. Today there would be many choices, but the mechanisms for making these agencies accountable and making the president accountable, really didn't exist at that time. I just can't tell you how scary it was to think that Nixon was pulling the levers of power, trying to engage in corrupt acts to cover up his own criminal involvement and that was the atmosphere in which Watergate occurred.

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Garrison, N.Y.: Does it not strike you as odd that an assistant FBI Director would have time and capability to drive around looking for potted plant signals and arranging for messages in newspapers to be delivered to Bob Woodward? Even if Felt was the only person to speak to Woodward as Deep Throat, do you think he may have had assistance in other aspects of his endeavors?

Ronald Kessler: No, I don't think it's at all strange. He would usually meet Woodward at midnight and FBI agents are very used to working strange and long hours. It makes perfect sense to me.

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Miami, Fla.: Would say that the instititution Felt loved so much is actually weakened since he left? He seemed have high hopes for an ideal outlook that probably was not fulfilled in the last three decades.

Ronald Kessler: The FBI today is a very effective agency under Robert Mueller. Since he took over in 2001 there has been no example of a major screw up or an abuse and I think the FBI has been very effective in pursuing terrorists, all within the law. Despite what you hear about the Patriot Act, the FBI does have to get a judge's order for any search and I think we're lucky that we have an FBI like that today.

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McLean, Va.: Will history judge Felt as a hero, a traitor, or a person with a personal motive (ie revenge after Gray being promoted)? Thanks.

Ronald Kessler: Well, I think of him as a hero and I think longterm he will be viewed that way because the bottom line is that our country survived and it was in part due to his efforts and Woodward and Bernstein's efforts.

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It was a totally different era.: For people in my age group, I'm 32, can you explain J.Edgar Hoover and his influence? I get it, but at the same time I don't. Can anyone in today's world have the same type of influence? Why or why not?

Thank you for responding.

Ronald Kessler: J. Edgar Hoover, in many ways, had more power than any president. He could gather information about people as he wished. He could use it as he wished. He did create a very effective law enforcement agency with an advanced filing system, an advanced laboratory, but at the same time he engaged in massive abuses, such as illegal wiretapping and amassing blackmail files. So, it's a mixed picture, but this claim that Hoover wore a red dress at some party is totally phony.

No, today, we have all kinds of checks and balances that would prevent the kinds of abuses that the FBI engaged in under Hoover. We have the Freedom of Information Act, which allows people to see what kind of info the FBI may be gathering about them. We have rigorous Congressional oversight, we have inspectors general and quite a few other mechanisms.

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Arlington, Va.: What's the most reliable and comprehensive source on all the activities that, together make up "Watergate?" There are so many books by people who were involved in various ways. Is there one source you could point to that would provide a chronology of events, along w/ a "where are they now" feature indicating what became of all the main players?

Ronald Kessler: I don't know of anything like that, but I think the first book to start with is Woodward and Bernstein's "All the President's Men," which lays out very honestly how they pursued the investigation. In my book, "The Bureau," I do go into the investigation by the FBI and what Woodward and Bernstein's role was. I interviewed almost all of the agents who were assigned to investigating Watergate and quote them about what they were finding, what they thought about the leaks, so I think that is another source.

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Beverly Hills, Calif. (again): Thanks for helping us to understand Woodward more in your earlier comment. What about Ben Bradlee ... I find him to be fascinating (not only as he was portrayed in the film by Jason Robards) but in real life. What did Ben bring to the party that made him such as an asset and why is he so darn fascinating?

Ronald Kessler: Well, first he put in place very good editors who wanted to pursue this investigation. One was Howard Simons, a second was Barry Sussman, the city editor and a third was Harry Rosenfeld, who was over Metropolitan News. There was a courageous atmosphere that Ben Bradlee engendered and also an atmosphere that required accuracy and responsibility and all of that made a big difference in uncovering Watergate.

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Ronald Kessler: Thank you for all your excellent questions. I think it's important to revisit this chapter in our history so that we learn not to ever let these kinds of abuses occur in the future and also so we can appreciate the work that Woodward and Bernstein did with the support of the Washington Post and I do think of it as a model of how journalism should operate and therefore it's a very instructive pursuit to look into how this all unraveled.

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