The Documentary is Part of the "American Masters" Series on PBS
Jack Clement
Songwriter, Producer, Recording Studio Pioneer, Publisher, Artist and Executive
Thursday, August 4, 2005
1:00 PM
The American Masters film "Good Rockin' Tonight: The Legacy of Sun Records" airs on PBS on Wednesday, August 3, at 9 p.m. ET (check local listings).
Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, B.B. King, Howlin' Wolf and Little Milton all got their start at Sun Records. This documentary includes rare footage of rock's founding fathers, input from some of today's best-known stars and candid recollections from Sun pioneers Billy Lee Riley, Sonny Burgess, Rufus Thomas and Jack Clement. It contains some of the last-ever conversations with Sam Phillips, who opened the storefront recording studio at 706 Union Avenue in Memphis, Tenn., more than 50 years ago and who died in 2002.
Jack Clement -- songwriter, producer, recording studio pioneer, publisher, artist and executive -- was online Thursday, April 4, at 1 p.m. ET to discuss the legacy of Sun Records and the American Masters documentary that features it.
The American Masters documentary, which earned a Gold Cindy award, is highlighted with exclusive studio performances by Paul McCartney, Mark Knopfler, Jimmy Page, Robert Plant and Bryan Ferry, performing together with original Sun musicians D.J. Fontana, Scotty Moore and Jerry Lee Lewis, in homage to the early Sun greats.
"Cowboy" Jack Clement was born in Whitehaven, Tenn., near Memphis on April 5, 1931. After four years of service in the Marines as a teenager, Clement toured in a bluegrass band, then returned to Memphis in 1954. He found work at Sun Records and worked at the mixing board for recording sessions with Roy Orbison, Carl Perkins, Johnny Cash, Charlie Rich and Jerry Lee Lewis. Another Sun artist, Elvis Presley, even opened for Clement at the Memphis club "The Eagle's Nest." During those years, he wrote two of Cash's songs: "Ballad of a Teenage Queen" and "Guess Things Happen That Way." Clement now operates out of his Nashville home -- with a fully equipped studio upstairs.
The transcript follows.
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Jack Clement: Hello folks out in TV land, radio land! Hi, this is Cowboy Jack Clement. What do you want know?!?
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Detroit, Mich.: How is it that Memphis became the center of the early rock and roll universe, and why did so many of the early start musicians come from mostly southern backgrounds?
Jack Clement: I think Memphis was so instrumental because it was centrally located, between north and south, east and west, it was a convergence point. There was people coming from different directions. Most of them weren't born there necessarily, lots of people were from the sticks, like "darkest Arkansas" as people used to say. It was just a happening place. It started with blues, then country, but different country from Nashville. I loved it. I grew up in Memphis. WE didn't get good reception. I would lay up in bed when I was a teenager at night, I had a wire on my toe used it as an antennae so I could get the Grand Ole Opry. Now they did broadcast it at 10 PM, but if you wanted the whole thing, and if you were this side of the Smokey Mountains it was hard to pick it up. Nevertheless, a lot got thru and it got thru to me. And I liked the country music, or hillbilly music as we called it. I grew up in this convergent point, mixing, like New York was in the old days - a melting pot. Course I had a lot of gospel music, I was a Baptist, I'm still a Baptist, I'm not a John, I'm a Jack. I grew up hearing not just white but black gospel music, because it was all over the radio in Memphis. So I heard a lot of stuff, a lot of that rhythm of black gospel music is in my guitar playing to this day. And I am the worlds greatest rhythm guitar player to this day. Ask Johnny Cash! So anyway, I heard all this stuff, I like hearing all different stuff, I don't want to hear bluegrass for 24 hours, or Polka for 24 hours. Although I do love a polka fix! How many people go to Cleveland for R n R. I do. I like a polka fix now and then. Heck I wound up on Frank Yanakovic the polka king's last album. I think it was the last one. So I like a lot of that kind of music. And Memphis produced people like me, a little nuts, a little of this, and that, and a lot of black gospel music - (singings - give me a little of that ol' time religion...give me a little o' that ole time religion....) I host a show on Sirius on Saturday from 2 to 6 eastern, and then rebroadcast from 6 to 10 PM on Sundays. I'm in their Nashville office now, I just finished a show.
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Anonymous: On the Masters program this evening, what is the name of the contemporary artist or group who sang "I'll Walk the Line" by Johnny Cash?
Jack Clement: Oh, I forgot.
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Jack Clement: The show was very entertaining and informative. Gives you rock and roll history.
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Maryland: How would you compare these guys when they were at Sun to much later after they hit it? Was there a consistency to the changes fame brought or did they each react differently? In other words, were they nice young guys who stayed nice or did they turn sour with fame?
Jack Clement: Well for the most part I think they stayed pretty nice. A couple were hell raisers in the first place, like Billy Riley and of course, Jerry Lee Lewis. And me. I never saw Elvis much, I only saw him once after he went into the army. But he used to drop around Sun Studio a lot. It was like a homing instinct. It wasn't his idea to leave Sun. He was attached to Sam Phillips. He never got over calling him Mr. Phillips. He was a very nice young man. It wasn't his idea to leave Sun. I asked Sam about that one time on the phone, we were talking. He said no, Elvis, didn't want to leave. But somebody made Sam an offer at that time, $35,000 which was the biggest offer anyone had made. They got Ray Charles for $3,000. Ahmet had offered $25,000. He said, Sam, I got Ray for $3,000. It was a lot of money at that time. Sam always said he needed that money to promote Blue Suede Shoes. I think it was a bunch of hooey. I think he was doing OK. But that $35,000 was very tempting. And he owed some money in royalties. And plus he published some of the songs Elvis had recorded, so he was still making money. And of course Blue Suede Shoes was a huge hit. But I never believed Sam when he said he needed that money to promote Blue Suede Shoes.
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Phoenix, Ariz.: Do you like Sam Phillips?
Jack Clement: I did like Sam Phillips. Even though he fired me. But then he would hire me back. I was ready to go though. Because Johnny Cash had gone, Carl Perkins had gone. They'd signed with Columbia in Nashville. And Jerry Lee Lewis went to England. So you know, it was kind of in the doldrums around Sun. It wasn't' inspiring. I was ready to get out of there. I should have gone to Nashville. I started a label in Memphis. And I had some pretty good money coming in from writer royalties, Ballad of a Teenage Queen, and Guess Things Happen That Way, and I had written the B side of Whole Lotta Shakin. And you get paid royalties from record sales for B sides too. So I had the money coming in. I messed around for a year starting a record label but that didn't work. Summer Records. We had all these postcards saying, Some Are Hits, Some Are Not, We Hope you like the ones we got. Then there was, Some Are In Spain, Some in France, if you don't play our records we ain't got a chance. And they didn't play our records. And there was one for the distributors. Summer Comes, Autumn Follows, You owe us $375. Or something like that. I don't think I ever sent that one out actually. But we put out silly stuff on the label. Like Motorcycle Michaels. How did it go? Where's old charley, with my Harley.... Another line was Where's Ole Shroeder with my motor....Silly record. I always had a silly streak. I think I got it from Johnny Cash. But I did love Sam Phillips. I liked him too. Some people I love em more than I like em. But in the case of Sam I loved him and I liked him. Even though he could be an a-hole sometimes.
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Jack Clement: He discovered me. I might not have amounted to anything if it hadn't been for him. It was a time and place in Memphis.
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Williston, N.D.: The credits moved too fast for me to write down the 800 number to order the video of the "Good Rockin Tonight: The legacy of Sun Records." Will you e-mail me the 800 number so that I can order one?
Jack Clement: See the link below.
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washingtonpost.com: For Information on How to Buy the DVD (amazon.com)
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Chicago, Ill.: I caught the show last night by accident after putting the kids to sleep. I missed the first half hour, but what I saw was extraordinary. I am amazed that you got Sam Phillips and Billy Lee Riley to sit and deal without any violence because Billy Lee has been incredibly bitter for years. How did you manage to keep the peace? Ha! Did you have any burly bouncer-types standing by? I wasn't too enamored of Matchbox 20 and some of the other new bands, but Jerry Lee Lewis, who's an even more volatile type than Billy Lee, seemed like he'd taken a fistful of xanax and was having a good time. How come you didn't get anything more out of him? Thank you for some great television.
Jack Clement: Jerry Lee playin' the piano seemed absurd, overdubbed or something. It seemed a whole different version. I didn't really go for any of the stuff other than the original Sun guys. I loved the Italian guy though, doing the Charlie Rich song, and he really sang it well. I've been around them guys for a long time and I guess they just kind of let me do that. But I didn't say much. They want to make fools of themselves, let them do it. They've been doing it for a long time. I was in the Marine Corps for four years. So I can keep the troops quiet if I want to. I guess I am a peace maker come to think of it.
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washingtonpost.com: Information on How to Buy a CD (amazon.com)
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Columbus: Were you ever on Johnny Cash's TV show?
Jack Clement: I was a couple of times, I know I did the 25th anniversary. I sang When I Dream on there, that I recorded on my first of two albums. In 1978.
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Jack Clement: I did another show of his five or six years later. I remember Sam Phillips was there and Minnesota Fats was there for whatever reasons. He was hanging out and after the show was over he and Sam and Sam's girlfriend Sally and I, we all went out to dinner. So I got to hang out with Minnesota Fats, who used to play pool where I used to play hookey when I was a kid, Peeple's Pool Hall, in Memphis. It was a famous place. He was there a lot, I never met him. But another thing about Minnesota, he was a champion eater. He told me how he ate a whole ham one time.
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Winnipeg, Manitoba: Of all the music legends you worked with, who would you say was the most serious musician? Who was the easiest to work with?
Jack Clement: Johnny Cash. No question about it. My favorite. As a person, as a fun guy, greatest wit. Go in the studio and have fun. I played on some of his last albums. I played on some records of his when I wasn't producer. I was playing with him at his studio, dobro on some of them, till the end.
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Louisville, Ky.: You produced sessions for both Johnny Cash and Jerry Lee Lewis at Sun. How did these two artists work in the studio and did your role differ much in working with the two?
Jack Clement: Completely different personalities. They weren't combustible, they could work together. They seemed to admire each other. Everyone liked both of them. Elvis was a big fan. You work differently with everybody. Jerry lee is bombastic and totally extroverted, totally uninhibited. So he would walk in and if there was a piano in the room and at least one person, he was the show, like he was in front of 10,000 people. Johnny Cash was a little more dignified, not that there's anything wrong with that. A little shy. Whereas Jerry Lee wasn't shy at all. But Johnny Cash had the fire for sessions once he got going. Jerry Lee walked in feeling like that.
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Anonymous: Do you think that it was Carl Perkins or Buddy Holly that was the musical link connecting Rock-a-Billy to Rock and Roll? In other words, was it one artist's style that was the direct "link" there -- or was it just a combination of everybody's emerging styles at the same time as the commercial radio and the teenagers being ready for it?
Jack Clement: Carl Perkins and Buddy Holly were both a big part of it. And Bill Haley in Baltimore. That's where I first heard something they call Rock n Roll. See I had heard Bill Haley before he became famous. I was in Washington D.C. at the end of my enlistment, and after I got out I started playing gigs around there. We were playing a place called North Beach in the summer, on Chesapeake Bay. There was a group playing a song by Bill Haley called Rock This Joint. So before I heard Bill Haley I heard someone singing his song. And it had the word Rock in it. Bill Haley is a legitimate rock n roller in my opinion, part of the formation of it and everything. Of course, Carl Perkins, his influence on guitar players - he was a hip guy, he had that southern thing, that southern boogie woogie stuff. Boogie woogie, black gospel and bluegrass..I really liked rock a billy, I don't know about rock n roll, but rockabilly, that's where you get that slapping bass (sings it...) I like to have a slapping bass in my rock n roll, unless of course it's a slow song, but we don't need too many of them in rock n roll. But I have a band, we play around some. But we don't think about what we play, we might go from Brazil to Rocky Top, to Tommy Dorsey. I was a dance instructor at Arthur Murray's in Memphis, before I got to Sun Studios, I liked waltz's, and tango. Never did like Mambo, too jerky.
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Jack Clement: Little Richard - definitely rock n roll. Never knew him, just met him a few months ago. I wasn't too happy with his show, seemed like he was hiding behind a ten piece band. Maybe over exposure. But he's great, no question about it. And he's really what I'd call rock n roll.
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washingtonpost.com: According to PBS, the band "Live" performs "Walk the Line" on the Sire/London/Rhino recording.
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Austin/San Antonio, Tex.: Savage Ranch, circa 1975, outside of Austin.
A bunch of us, including Mae and Tompall, perched on and around an old picnic table next to the pool, six or seven taking turns strumming, pickin', and "chiming in" on perhaps a dozen little ditties that ...
According to you, nobody in this group is ready to take sole credit for these songs.
Every one of them sounded like a hit to me. Best live music in my lifetime.
If someday I come see you and Niles, let's catch up and then pick for a while. I still play and still have the old j45 that was passed around the table that day. I've missed y'all.
--Tim Patten
Jack Clement: Hi, I remember the various sessions. Call me. Or go to my Web site. cowboyjackclement.com is my site.
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Athens, ohio: Hi Jack,
I just got my Oxford American magazine Music issue with your rendition of "Teenage Queen." You helped break the color barrier in Nashville with Charlie Pride.
What do you think of today's barriers in Nashville?
Thanks
Jack Clement: Well they got a wall of ignorance down there running everything. Walls of ignorance. The music business sucks these days. Or as I said the other day, the music business isn't so bad if you're not in it. I believe in satellite radio, I'm hoping it's going to change some things. Add some freedom to music. The record labels don't give you any freedom. It costs a million dollars to put out an artist. I'll tell you something Sam Phillips said to me one time, it sounded a little preposterous then but it's come true. We were talking about the record business, and he said the record business is going to get so big that if you're not selling a million records the labels will drop you. And it's come to that. Too big a business, you know. Too much business and not enough music.
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Phila, Pa.: Hey Jack is the Sun studio building still standing on Union st. Is the Stax studio building still on Maclamore st. Did you know Buzz Cason, Big Jim Halsey or Shelby Singleton -- Has Jerry Lee done a gospel album yet.
Hope to hear from you. PEACE.
Jack Clement: I don't know. I do know Buzz Cason. I know Shelby very well. I met Big Jim a few times. But he didn't live in Nashville I don't think. He was a manager. Sun Studio is still there and I think it's still in operation. Stax I don't know about. I think it's become a museum. Quite a bit of that stuff last night was shot in Sun Studio.
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Washington, D.C.: The documentary revealed that the early successes of Sun records revolved around recording black musicians, who within a few years moved on to other labels. Then, there was an abrupt change with essentially all the musicians being white (Sam described this himself in the film).
Why the abrupt change? I wonder why Sun seemed to draw mainly black artists at first (why did whites not come as they did later on?), and why did blacks then largely stop recording for Sun after those first few years? Was it that they preferred to seek contracts with other labels, or was there some sort of new 'policy' at Sun that discouraged the black musicians from recording there? Thanks.
Jack Clement: It was Elvis. He came along and turned it into a different game. It wasn't' that Sun wasn't receptive to black artists. A lot of the stuff Sun did with black artists was for other labels. Chess Records and some others. He produced a lot of records not on Sun. He got paid so much a record as a producer. And Sam was successful at that and started his own label. But when Elvis came along he was drifting into white country music. When Carl Perkins came along he was singing country stuff. His first releases on Sun, actually it wasn't Sun, Sam had a secondary label for more hardcore country stuff, which was what Carl Perkins was doing, not rock n roll. And I don't think, it just sort of sequed, Elvis came along, but Sam was still receptive to black artists. They were mostly gone when I got there, there was some there, and I enjoyed working with them. Roscoe Gordon I worked with. But the emphasis shifted. Elvis came along, Johnny Cash came along, Jerry Lee came along, and you just go with the flow. And then I think maybe black music just started to get a little too sophisticated for Sam, you know what I mean. Me too, a lot got too modern for me. Too much phrasing.
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Jack Clement: Over production, over phrasing. Sam liked the gut bucket stuff, like I do. I think also that Sam didn't leave the black people, but also that the black people left Sam, his orbit.
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Baltimore, Md.: I think Johnny Cash may be the single most important musical figure in our culture's history. Even more than Elvis. How did he get to be so influential? He was a cotton farmer and he had problems, but he rose to such great heights. He was a voice for so many people. He was accepted by outlaws and preachers and just about everybody. I have been wondering, though, how this man achieved such greatness, not only in records, but as a cultural icon.
Jack Clement: I think he was just a really great guy and everybody loved him, he had a way of getting to people, they trusted him, and he was just sort of a natural born leader I think. And he had this wonderful voice that pulled people into it. Sam used to talk about Johnny Cash and how when you heard him sing, you listened. It sounded important. A magnetic personality, a great guy. A very good man, even despite the pill taking he got into for awhile, a good man. I considered him a real Christian. And I think he got more saintly as he went along. A good soul.
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Jack Clement: And that goodness seeped out somehow. Came out of his pores. These are hard questions, you know!
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Goodyear, Ariz.: Hi Jack, After watching the 'Good Rockin' Tonight' program on You, Sam and the rest of the boys, I'll bet you a million dollars that there are about several million fans that would like to buy a couple of Sun Records T-shirts with the original Sun Record Label on the front. You can share the profits with Billy Riley and the rest of the original Sun artists. We (the fans from the middle 50's) would be proud and happy to wear them. One of my very 1st records (as a teen-ager) was 'Blue Suede Shoes' by Carl, (and later on, 'Flying Saucers Rock & Roll' by Billy Lee). Good Luck and God Bless You.
Jack Clement: Well thank you! I think they still sell T-shirts at the sun studio. They got a store next door and a restaurant. I think somebody somewhere is selling them. You could probably just call Sun Studios in Memphis and they'll tell you, send you a price list or something.
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Jack Clement: If I was going to go to Memphis to buy something, I'd go to Bernard Lansky's place in the Peabody Hotel. He was Elvis' clothier. He had a famous place on Beale Street. Billy Lee would buy things there. I'd buy things there too, but I wasn't on the road a lot so I didn't need a lot of clothes. But I was there a couple of years ago and bought a couple of Elvis robes, one for me and one for my leading lady.
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Falls Church, Va.: Just curious - what did you think about the Stray Cats and the mini-rockabilly revival in the '80s? Also, did you ever hear of Tex Rubinowitz, a local DC guy who could really rock the joint? He had a minor hit in England with a song called Hot Rod Man, also in the '80s...
Jack Clement: I love Brian Setzer and the Stray Cats. I don't listen to the radio a lot, haven't in years. Now I keep it on Sirius all the time. Radio is corrupt. It's a dictatorship. I always like Rockabilly music. I got to hang out with the stray cats a little bit. Brian Setzer is a talented musician. Besides rockabilly he can do a lot of stuff. The other stuff I don't remember.
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Rockville, Md.: Hi,
I loved that American Master's special--saw it last night. Phillips is a nut. You must be proud of what you all did.
Two quick but general questions: what do you think of the state of the recording industry today? And will there be a revival (if there isn't already) of small indie studios like Sun which can turn out original, quality stuff and give the little guys a break??
Thanks.
Jack Clement: I said awhile ago, the recording industry sucks. You hear that crap on the radio. I do hope that independent labels come along. And I do think that satellite radio is the great white and black hope. I hate these monopolies that own thousands of stations and play the same records over and over that I didn't like in the first place. Music on the radio today isn't much to sing about.
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Jack Clement: I'd like to say, Aloha, Oe, Nui Nui - means hello very much! I'd like to think that anyway.
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Jack Clement: This is Cowboy Jack Clement - I've enjoyed this chat room, it's been different. I might get hooked on it! I'd love to have you come visit my web site, CowboyJackClement.com and happy trails!
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washingtonpost.com: Next week's American Masters, "Hank Williams: Honky Tonk Blues," airs on Wednesday, August 10, at 9 p.m. ET on PBS (check local listings). A Live Online discussion will follow on Thursday, August 11, at 11:30 a.m. ET with director, writer and producer Morgan Neville and Colin Escott, co-writer/co-producer and author of "Hank Williams: The Biography." Escott is also author of "Good Rockin' Tonight: Sun Records & the Birth of Rock & Roll."
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Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.