Proponents Say Move Will Aid Peace Process
Lewis Roth
Assistant Executive Director, Americans for Peace Now
Monday, August 15, 2005
2:00 PM
Amidst controversy and confrontation, Israel began its planned pullout from the Gaza Strip today. Despite opposition from some religious groups and the Likud party, supporters say Prime Minister Ariel Sharon 's plan will aid the peace process. How might this impact Arab-Israeli relations? What outcome do supporters hope to see in light of Sharon's decision?
Lewis Roth , assistant executive director at Americans for Peace Now , was online Monday, Aug. 15, at 2 p.m. ET to discuss support for Israel's withdrawal from parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
The transcript follows.
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Anonymous: Why should Israel be given any praise or rewards for pulling out of Gaza, when the Gaza settlements were clearly illegal? Why should such criminal activity be rewarded?
Lewis Roth: Israel deserves praise for taking a step to at least partially address one of the most vexing problems that exist between itself and the Palestinians. Regardless of the reasons that are motivating the settlement evacuation, the fact is that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon--who has long been a supporter of the settlement movement--has recognized that security, economic, and demographic realities necessitate Israel's withdrawal from Gaza. This is a step that Peace Now and others in the peace camp have long advocated, and we are pleased to see it being implemented, particularly by this prime minister. The evacuation plan is costing Israel a lot of money, and it will need economic assistance to pay for the move.
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Baltimore, Md.: Since Israel has withdrawn its troops from Lebanon, Hezbollah has maintained its arsenal, and continued attacking Israel occasionally killing Israelis - civilians included - across the U.N. certified border garnering virtually no outrage from the world community. Do you expect the same will happen following the Israel withdrawal from Gaza? Will the forces of the PA, Hamas and Islamic Jihad continue attacking Israel from Gaza evoking little or no outrage?
Lewis Roth: First, it's important to recognize that Israel reaped tremendous diplomatic benefits from withdrawing from Lebanon, and that although attacks continue to take place from time to time, the northern border is much quieter now than when Israel had troops across the border. If things go well--that is, if Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas manages to keep a handle on terrorist groups, if Israel provides the Palestinians with a political horizon the day after disengagement, and if the international community increases its involvement in the conflict--then there is a chance that terrorist attacks will decrease, especially from Gaza. On the other hand, if things don't go well, there is the possibility that Hamas and other terror groups will decide to increase their attacks on Israel from the West Bank. In order to avert this possibility, Israel and the Palestinian Authority need to cooperate and work to strengthen each other against extremist elements.
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Wheaton, Md.: Once the withdrawal is complete and Israel is attacked by terrorists, will your organization still blame Israel as it always has?
Lewis Roth: Americans for Peace Now does not always blame Israel for Palestinian terrorist attacks. We consistently condemn such attacks and call on the Palestinian Authority to do its utmost to prevent them. We also call on the Israeli government to work with the Palestinian Authority to make sure that it has the political and logistical support it needs to carry out this task.
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Lyon, France: Since you liberal Americans believe Israel should carve out sections of its territory to create a state for the Arabs within its borders, wouldn't it also be fair for Iraq, Syria, Yemen and other Arab states to do the same for the Jews living within their borders? You do want a "fair" settlement, don't you?
Lewis Roth: Your question assumes that Israel has internationally recognized borders. Unfortunately, after so many years since its establishment, it doesn't have such boundaries. One of the goals of the peace process is to allow Israel to have secure, internationally recognized borders. Ironically, only an agreement with the Palestinians can deliver this--the status quo will not suffice and it cannot be done unilaterally.
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Washington, D.C. Israelis moving out. . . : So where will they all move to? I assume they have invested in the homes they no longer are allowed to live in. Where are they going to move to now and who will pay them for the land/homes they are giving up?
Lewis Roth: The Israeli government has invested a tremendous amount of time and effort to find housing solutions for each of the Gaza settler families, as well as to relocate businesses and farms. Many of these people will be moving to communities in the Negev and perhaps some to the Galilee region. Israel has been very generous with the compensation offers that it has made to the settlers, even though many of them have not taken advantage of the offers before them due to ideological concerns.
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Cincinnati, Ohio: Has Israel reserved the right and will it maintain the capacity to reenter Gaza militarily if necessary to prevent it becoming a staging ground for future attacks?
Lewis Roth: Israel has reserved the right to use its military in self-defense against attacks coming from Gaza in the future. There is a greater chance that once the settlers and soldiers have departed, Israel will rely more on aerial strikes to counter such attacks. Avoiding these kinds of attacks and counter-attacks is another good reason for Israel and the Palestinian Authority to deepen their security cooperation.
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Warner, N.H.: My grandmother survived WWII in hiding and my mother and I taped her experiences for future generations. She recognized the frailty of human nature under duress and even admitted that clinging to old Jewish traditions may have been their downfall at the time. If she were alive today, she may have said the same about Israeli politics.
How will your organization get Jews to understand that conservative religion has no place in global politics? Lukim in Israel, Islam in Middle East, Christian Conservatives in America -- they all preach the gospel of intolerance and fuel the fires of terrorism.
Lewis Roth: Americans for Peace Now and Peace Now in Israel are not anti-religious organizations. We are Jewish, Zionist groups working to enhance Israel's security through peace. In Israel, is that the ultra-Orthodox and Orthodox tend to dominate the religious scene--and the religious nationalist block has used Jewish teaching to strengthen support for settlements. One of the challenges that we have is to recapture the Jewish debate in Israel and draw upon the progressive traditions that it has on issues like peace and coexistence. There are some people working on this issue today in Israel, like Rabbi Michael Melchior of the Meimad Party, but there needs to be more done in this field.
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Washington, D.C.: Do you think that the pullout will indeed lead to a third intifada? If so, what can be done to prevent it?
Lewis Roth: The disengagement has the potential to lead to renewed peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, provided that both sides take advantage of the diplomatic opportunities that it offers. But problems could well arise if the Palestinian Authority allows armed groups to dictate the political agenda (even after upcoming parliamentary elections), if the Israeli government refuses to consider further diplomatic moves, and if the international community fails to come through with political and financial help for the two sides. There is always a possibility of violence erupting again--and it will take the best effort on all fronts to make sure that it doesn't happen.
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Washington, D.C.: So, if I am a Gaza family evicted from my house in Gaza--and go peacefully--where do I go? Do I get a new house someplace?
Lewis Roth: There are temporary as well as permanent housing solutions being provided for each family from Gaza. Where individual families end up depends on their needs and their efforts to work with the government to find answers that meet these needs. There is no one solution for everyone.
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Baltimore, Md.: Lewis, I just read the post article on the pullout. It said the Isreali Army would be destroying 2800 houses in the Gaza settlements. Why don't they just leave them intact - I am sure the Palestinians could use them.
I have seen this noted before also, with no explanation.
Thanks.
Lewis Roth: This is a complicated question.
Under international law, as an occupying power, Israel is required to leave the land as it found it--without settlements. At the same time, Israel wanted to avoid pictures of terrorists "dancing on the rooves" of the settlement houses after evacuation. Meanwhile, the Palestinians require housing solutions that provide for the needs of many, many families crowded into their communities. They need high-rise apartment buildings, not villas like the settlers built. So the solution arrived at will have Israel destroy the houses, the Palestinians and Egyptians will work on removing the rubble, and the toxic materials used in the houses will be sent back to Israel for burial.
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San Francisco, Calif.: If Israel goes ahead with its plans to turn Gaza into the largest open-air prison camp in the world (no access to the Mediterranean, air, Egypt, and -of course- Israel proper), yet lay no territorial claim over that land, isn't this going to be a lose-lose situation for both Israel and the Palestinians?
Lewis Roth: Israel recognizes that it has to find solutions for movement for the Palestinians, and it has engaged in serious discussions with the World Bank, the Quartet envoy James Wolfensohn, and the Palestinians to address this issue. Not everything has been determined yet. But the Palestinians will be able to build a seaport in Gaza (this will take three years), and Israel is working to make the crossing points work as smoothly as possible for a reliable flow of goods and people. Israel is also planning to use rail lines to an Israeli port from Gaza to help the situation. More work needs to be done on establishing a safe passage route between Gaza and the West Bank, and Israel is still reluctant to allow the Palestinians to reopen the airport in Gaza. Further, not everything is decided on the border crossings with Egypt, the Palestinians, and Israel. But the international community has made clear that it will not be worth investing additional money in Gaza unless the issue of movement is resolved, and unless the Palestinians take a number of reform measures having to do with financial management, security, and corruption.
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Washington, D.C.: After attending a lecture/debate on the Israeli/Palestine problem, I was left with the impression that Jews believe that the land of Israel is theirs because they possessed it 2000 years ago but was then taken from them. By this logic, shouldn't Jews support giving the United States back to the American Indians because everything we walk on used to be their land, only 500 years ago, and it was taken from them by force?
Lewis Roth: One of the important historic developments represented in the disengagement plan is that it represents the triumph of reason and reality over messianic dreams. From this week forward, Israel can point to the pullout as an example of it must put its national security, economic, and demographic needs over those who refuse to withdrawal from one inch of territory--just as the Palestinians need to come to grips with extremists in their midst who refuse to compromise in the face of modern developments.
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Owings Mills, Md.: Taking into consideration Hamas's position that it is their "resistance" that has created the withdrawal, do you believe that the Palestinians public will look more favorably to compromise with Israel after the Gaza withdrawal, or will their position of demanding a 'Right of Return' and Jerusalem as their capital remain unchanged?
Lewis Roth: It's important that the secular, nationalist Palestinians represented by President Abbas have gains that they can point to as the triumph of diplomacy rather than armed resistance. Although the Palestinians will continue to demand that the issues of refugees and Jerusalem be addressed, like other final status issues, there are possible compromise formulas that can be worked out that will be win-win scenarios for both sides.
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Lexington, Ky.: If 8,500 Jews cannot live peacefully among 1.2 million Arabs, why do you think Israel will ever live in peace? Those "illegal settlers" as you call them being an "obstacle to peace" are proof of Arab racism and you know it.
Lewis Roth: Israel has enjoyed the benefits of peace from its long-standing peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Although the situation with the Palestinians is more complicated, solutions can be worked out that will provide Israel with the security it needs and the Palestinians with the freedom that they desire.
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Washington, D.C. : The United States' justification for the invasions into Afghanistan and Iraq have been to spread "democracy" as a means of combating terrorism. In addition to Sharon's government withdrawing settlers to address the vexing problem you accurately addressed, wouldn't it seem likely in the Israeli government's eyes that the United States would no longer have a reason to tread lightly around this issue and couldn't continue to fully support Israel? It could be argued by Palestinian nationalists that they also are being denied a right to "freedom" even though they aren't really under overly oppressive regimes?
Lewis Roth: It could be possible that the US will recognize an increased interest in making the disengagement process successful because things may not be going so well for it in other parts of the region. The Palestinians have held several municipal and one national election so far--all given a passing grade in terms of democratic norms--and they have several more local elections and a parliamentary election coming up. Strengthening the secular Palestinian nationalists in these elections is in the best interests of the US and Israel.
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Owings Mills, Md.: Do you foresee Gaza becoming a country populated by Palestinians like Jordan? Is there talk of Jordan and Gaza forming a confederation" or uniting somehow, or is it more likely that Gaza would become a country of it's own?
Lewis Roth: Although Jordan has a large Palestinian population, there is no serious talk about it forming a confederation with a newly emerging Palestinian state (although some right-wing Israelis still see this as a viable option). The treaties that Israel and the Palestinians have signed over the years treat Gaza and the West Bank as one political unit. Many Palestinians worry that disengagement will lead to efforts to break Gaza away from the West Bank--which is one reason that the Palestinian Authority is so insistent on a safe passage route connecting the West Bank to Gaza.
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Tyler, Md.: Are the Jews who are forced to leave their homes in Gaza now "refugees"? Will the U.N. keep them refugees for the rest of their lives and the lives of all of their children like the Palestinian refugees?
Lewis Roth: I haven't seen any legal argument claiming refugee status for the Gaza settlers. They are not being tossed to the wind--they are being welcomed home to inside the Green Line with generous compensation and relocation packages to help ease the very real pain and anxiety that many of them have because of the process that is taking place.
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Beirut, Lebanon: When my father and extended family were forced to leave their large orange farms in Jaffa in 1948, they never received any compensation for their losses, nor was there any such public outcry as there is now.
With a majority of Israelis favoring the pullout, why is so much attention being given to those who clearly do not want a two-state solution to the Mideast crisis?
Lewis Roth: The settlers and their supporters are a very vocal minority in Israel. They are highly motivated, politically astute, and well funded in their protests. It's not surprising that they have gotten a lot of media coverage. This is particularly the case when mainstream Israelis are much less likely to take to the streets over the issue and have sympathy for the personal plight of the settlers being evacuated. Still, Peace Now in Israel has been successful in some of its efforts to demonstrate majority support for disengagement, like its blue ribbon street campaign and participation in organizing mass rallies in favor of the pullout. The level of support for disengagement has stabilized over the past few weeks at around 58%, whereas opposition to the evacuation has never gotten much larger than 36%.
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McLean, Va.: Lewis, many of your answers propose that only with increased cooperation will the two sides reach mutual security. Yet Abu Mazen is unwilling to fight terror in Gaza and the West Bank. Will the pull-out succeed in granting Israel security if Abu Mazen continues to refuse to fight terrorists?
Lewis Roth: Part of the problem is that Abu Mazen has the will to fight terrorism and violence, but he doesn't necessarily have means to get the job done. As several incidents in Gaza over the past month have underscored, Palestinian security forces often get their clocks cleaned in direct encounters with more heavily armed Hamas fighters. Abu Mazen has requested Israel to allow him to import more rifles and munitions, armored vehicles, and trained fighters from Jordan to strengthen his hand. He can't do any of this without Israeli permission. None of these requests will tip the balance of power between the Palestinians and Israel, but they could mean the difference in a fight between Abu Mazen's loyalists and Hamas...which is in Israel's interests.
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Oakton, Va.: Some context please, who are the people that moved into the settlements, and are now leaving. Why did they go there in the first place? And what kind of people among the Palestinians will be moving there?
Lewis Roth: It's unclear which Palestinians will be moving into the areas that the settlers evacuate.
As far as who moved into the settlements from Israel, it was a mix of religious and secular folks who were given generous economic incentives to start a new life in Gaza. Just as the government was responsible for bringing them to Gaza, it also has a responsibility to bring them back and help set their lives in good order again. Israel seems to recognize this responsibility.
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Anonymous: Who will be the first to stand in front of the Gaza wall and shout "Sharon tear down this Wall"?
Lewis Roth: There is no "wall" around Gaza. There has been a metal security fence for many years along the Green Line, which the Palestinians have not objected to. Additional security barriers are being built around Gaza, but in back of the frontline fence and on Israeli territory.
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Marshalltown, Iowa: In the previous Gaza pullout: Opposition chat, the guest stated that Israel has no problem with Christian and Muslim minorities living on the land. With that mindset of religious superiority, how can peace be achieved if it's clear that so many right-wing Israelis don't want to share the Holy Land?
Lewis Roth: Sharing the land is not just a religious question. As Ariel Sharon and many other Israelis on the right have come to recognize, Israel will not have a future as a Jewish, democratic state unless it finds a way to stop occupying 3.5 million Palestinians. There were reports last week in the Israeli press that Jews no longer constitute a firm majority in the territory it controls. Realizing the Zionist dream of a Jewish homeland isn't possible if Jews are outnumbered or feel compelled to forego the democratic traditions that are Israel's strength.
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Tyler, Md.: According to the U.N., if you live in an area for two years and are forced to leave the area, then you are a refugee. That would include the Jewish people (you call them "settlers") who are being forced to leave their homes in Gaza. Is the resistance to leave their homes giving them the right to continuing refugee status?
Lewis Roth: I'm not sure that the UN would agree that these settlers had a right to be living in Gaza in the first place under international law and therefore are entitled to refugee status.
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New London, Conn.: How did the world allow the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank? The U.S. governments unconditional support of the imperialist and aggressive policy by the Israeli right-wing government has only served to worsen the situation. Will people stand up when Palestine is invaded again?
Lewis Roth: The US-Israeli relationship is strong, and rightfully so. The US has been very supportive of Israel maintaining a strong defense--but it has also been very encouraging in terms of supporting peace initiatives. Let's hope that the White House will do even more to move the two sides back to the peace table after the pullout is complete.
Whether or not Israel feel compelled to attack or invade Gaza again will depend to a large degree on how well the Palestinian Authority performs in getting militants on its side to lay down their arms and work for the common good. Israel and the US can strengthen Abu Mazen's ability to combat terrorists--and he has to show that he's willing to use his strengthened hand against militants. If the governments on all sides work together, hopefully there will be no need for Israel to feel compelled to attack Palestinian territory again.
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Lewis Roth: I greatly appreciate all the questions from today's session. To keep up to date on what's happening the Middle East and with Americans for Peace Now, please visit the APN website, www.peacenow.org.
Thank you.
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