National Book Festival

Writes About Politics and Women's Issues

Judith Warner is the author of a range of nonfiction books, among them "You Have the Power: How to Take Back Our Country and Restore Democracy to America" (with Howard Dean) and the bestselling biography "Hillary Clinton: The Inside Story." Her most recent book is Perfect Madness (Penguin/Riverhead Books, 2005).

Warner was online Thursday, Sept. 22, at Noon ET to discuss her writing and upcoming appearance at the National Book Festival .

A transcript follows.

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Judith Warner: Hi Everyone -- I'm Judith Warner, the author of Perfect Madness: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety. I'm very pleased to be here today and looking forward to our online chat!

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Frederick, Md: Hi, Judith

I was wondering if you were surprised by the reaction to "A Perfect Madness"? Many women, myself included, were thrilled to see it, but I also think there was a backlash against it too? Did you perceive that as well?

Judith Warner: I was surprised by the reaction to Perfect Madness. I always knew that there would be people who wouldn't like it -- necessarily, as I was writing a critique of so many of the parenting practices I saw all around me -- but I was caught off guard by the depth and strength of the reaction, both positive and negative. Many people look at the book almost as a mirror, and if they see themselves reflected negatively there, they become very angry. Many women are eager to find validation and a sense of community, and when they like and identify with the book, I think it brings them a great deal of happiness. Perfect Madness is also, as I wrote in the Preface, a very personal book. It's infused with my own voice. And I think I have a voice that either pleases people or annoys them enormously.

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Alexandria, Va: Hi Judith-

I'm curious what your thoughts are on the recent New York Times article about young women in elite colleges who at 19 and 20 have decided that they will give up their careers and stay at home with their children? Is this a 'trend' from your vantage point or anecdote. Thanks.

- a happy but occasionally guilt-ridden working mom

Judith Warner: There's been an enormous amount of discussion of that article already, with many people questioning the fact that what appears to be a collection of anecdotes made its way onto page one of the New York Times. A number of things struck me about the story, one of which was that the young women interviewed tended to admire their own mothers greatly and to want to be like them. The vast majority of women interviewed had had stay-at-home moms. The one woman who had a working mother said she admired her and wanted to live her life just as she had done. While I do think the article (like others on the same theme that have preceded it in newspapers over the years) was slanted and perhaps exaggerated in its perspective, I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Let's say a new generation of college-educated women decides to stay home full time. Will they encounter the same kinds of identity and other issues that tripped up the college-educated women Betty Friedan profiled in the Feminine Mystique?

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Silver Spring, Md.: As a mother of a toddler, I want to thank Judith Warner for her book "Perfect Madness." I have recommended this book to dozens of friends because it NAILS the situation faced my moms today. We either drive ourselves mad trying to be perfect stay-at-home moms, or suffer from guilt and stress if we choose to work. I stayed home for a year and almost drove myself crazy driving to daily swim lessons, playgroups, and music lessons - for a BABY! Luckily I came to my senses and found a more balanced approach to motherhood, in part due to this book.

But it is not just the sociological factors that make this book so powerful. The policy solutions Warner suggests - especially affordable, quality daycare and health coverage for part-time workers - are right on target. Yet in the current political climate, these reforms don't stand a remote chance of being considered. (I lived in France for a while and was also struck by the difference in stress levels among American and French families.) I'm curious if Warner feels optimistic about the possibility of pro-family policy changes. I felt a brief glimmer of hope for change during the Dean campaign, but have felt increasingly discouraged after the last election. Could a combination of factors (high gas prices, high housing costs, Hurricane Katrina) work together to get the American people and lawmakers to finally focus on a pro-family policy agenda? Thanks for your comments.

Judith Warner: Thank you so much for your praise. I do feel hopeful about policy change, despite the rather hopeless political landscape right now. When I wrote the book, I kept policy discussions in it to a minimum because I believed people wouldn't be open to or interested in them. After the book came out, though, I found that it was the policy discussion -- the "what can we do now" question -- that most excited people and drew them together. Every book event I had ended with someone saying "Let's form a movement." I was invited to speak with members of Congress and of the Senate. I felt that there does exist a real political will to bring change -- and a real desire on the part of the electorate. The challenge now is to get people to raise their voices and make their elected representatives realize that these issues matter to them. We need to make clear that we will no longer tolerate being essentially abandoned by our political leaders.

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Paris, France: As an American who is resident in France, I read your book with great interest.

While it is true that maternity leave is available in France, it is only 10 weeks long, post due-date. This means that once your baby is 10 weeks old, you are expected to return to work and leave the baby in collective day care. These day cares are subsidized but grossly underfunded and have only one caregiver for every 6 babies. Is this really a policy to be advocated in the US? Would it not be preferable to offer mothers a much longer maternity leave (6 months to 1 year) rather than doing as the French and forcing babies into a collective environment at such a young age?

Judith Warner: Most of the women I knew in France were able, by accumulating vacation time and making special arrangements with their employers, to take a much longer maternity leave than 10 weeks post-partum. Many took advantage of the conge parental d'education to take up to three years off to be with their children. What the French system gives women is choices. No one is required to put her children in day care. There are generous tax subsidies to make using a nanny much more affordable than it is here. There are also part-time pre-schools (halte garderies) that take children at about 18 months of age. What I admire about the French system is that it really does give women (and men) choices about how to set up their family lives. Of course, the French would say that it is underfunded and insufficient -- but from here it certainly looks very generous.

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Washington, D.C.: Ms. Warner - There seems to be more frequent discussion of the changing role of women/moms than of men/dads. A modern man is one that is expected to combine traditional "manly" kitchen-sink know how with far more traditional domestic roles that used to be the exclusive province of women. (Example: most of my guy friends can and do cook circles around their girlfriends/wives)

What might explain the lack of discussion about the changes in men's roles?

Judith Warner: That is a very good point and a very interesting question. I think the lack of discussion comes, in part, because many men aren't interested in having it. I have met men who are -- they're the ones who read the book and come to book events and participate in online discussions like this one. There was a time when I hoped to redo my Perfect Madness research with the husbands of the women I'd interviewed to do a separate book about fathers. But I was told men wouldn't buy it -- only their wives would.

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McLean, Va: I'm posting this question early because I will miss the chat. I read your book several months ago - and the one question I kept coming back to was this: WHERE ARE THE DADS??? In my own marriage - and in many of my friends' marriages - the dads really are trying to do their full share, and we need to appreciate that. Parenting in America these days is tough - but that's true for men as well as women. We absolutely MUST stop characterizing these issues as women's issues! They are family issues and societal issues. The longer we talk about them as "motherhood" problems, the longer we will perpetuate the current system - because let's be honest, the system won't get fixed until men buy into the idea that there's a problem worth fixing.

Judith Warner: I couldn't agree with you more, which is why I have tried, in the book (I believe) and in talking about it afterwards, to frame this as a family issue. Our vocabulary for talking about these issues needs to catch up to the changed reality of most people's lives.

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Germantown, Md: The Republican agenda continually stresses that "Big Government" is a detriment to society. This is an effective strategy since it allows people to associate the Republican Party as a helpful steward willing to do anything for its people. How can the Democrats effectively defeat this marketing gimmick in today's sound byte world?

Judith Warner: I believe that the Democrats need to argue -- and prove -- that they are the real party of "family values." Of course, they'd need an agenda to go with that.

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Rockville, Md: Dear Ms. Warner, I read and enjoyed your book. It was a fascinating "ethnography" of modern women in upper middle class suburbia. What I found disconcerting, however, was the fact that most women interviewed in the book seemed to lack perspective on their lives. Mothers who saw their lives as frustrating and demanding and a "mess" failed consistently to recognize that in a country rife with poverty and single parents, theirs is a position of privilege. I am not poor, but I am a single parent and I have no "wonderful husband" to support my family and help around the house. I don't suffer the madness of constant driving to and from lessons because I can't afford so many lessons for my kids. I think there are many who saw these women's complaints as at least partly a rant of the privileged. How do you respond to this assertion? Thanks very much.

Judith Warner: Many of the women I interviewed were aware of the fact that their problems were, in part, problems of privilege. This awareness made them feel even worse about themselves -- like they had no right to suffer at all. I believe that the problems affecting American mothers -- and families -- today are society-wide. They just take different forms among different people at different rungs of the economic ladder. But the basic problem: that people are left to take everything onto their own shoulders because society refuses to help them or to acknowledge collective responsibility is the same.

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Washington, D.C.: You are absolutely wonderful! What are you working on now, and can you tell us about yourself?

Judith Warner: I will try to hold onto your praise and remember it every time I start my day feeling overwhelmed and generally un-wonderful! I am currently trying to work on a new book, on the mystery of why so many children are being diagnosed with so many "issues." I am also writing book reviews, and am about to have my own radio show -- "The Judith Warner Show" -- on XM radio. I am also just trying to keep my head above water with two daughters and no child care!

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Washington, D.C.: Dear Mrs. Warner, Isn't the "trend" identified by the New York Times of young women wishing to stay home instead of have a career a bit of a skewed story? After all, many women work because they have to work -- their husband's don't earn much or they are single parents. The notion that there is big "trend" of CHOOSING to stay home make it appear as if there is a CHOICE available to most women -- I would argue that there is not.

Judith Warner: I agree completely. I think our news media do women an enormous disservice by perpetuating this myth of "choice."

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Munich, Germany: What's it like to return to the U.S. after a longer stay in Europe? Did you have to make any major adjustments?

Also, are you going to try to raise your kids bilingually?

Judith Warner: I did experience some reverse culture shock. I found life a lot harder here. But, on the other hand, I had always wanted to make my life in America with my family. It was important for me to feel grounded here and to have my daughters be fully part of our society. I doubt that my daughters will ever be bilingual, but we do hope they will learn to speak French well, as we have friends there who are like family, and they -- and their children -- are sure to remain a big part of our life.

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Washington, D.C.: Why is it that the Powers That Be consider middle- and upper-class white women who work outside the home to be bad mothers, but poor and minority women are bad mothers if they're not working?

Judith Warner: I would say it's because people assume that poor and minority women who aren't working are being supported by taxpayers (a bad thing) while middle and upper middle class women are being supported by their husbands (a good thing, in this way of thinking).

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Silver Spring, Md: Why do you make so many generalizations about men? It seems you are saying women are these complex creatures and men are pretty simple minded. It would be interesting if you applied your fine analytical skills to fairly examining men's feelings as parents and spouses

Judith Warner: I did not mean to imply that for a moment. I just wanted to relay the kinds of reactions I encountered when I suggested looking at men in the thoughtful, analytical way you suggest.

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Arlington, Va: I am still not clear on the premise or thesis of your book. Can you please provide a brief description?

Judith Warner: My book is on the American culture of motherhood, with a particular focus on my generation of post-baby-boom women and how we go about our lives as mothers. My major thesis is that, due to a confluence of political, economic, social and psychological factors, we are a generation of control freaks and the way we go about motherhood reflects this.

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Arlington, Va.: After the success of "A Perfect Madness," do you think you will write more about women's and family issues?

Judith Warner: Yes, I am sure to, though I also have political and literary interests that I would like to explore.

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Washington, D.C.: I have not yet read your book (yet), but I have read many of your wonderful articles and found them very interesting.

I am a 31-year old married woman with a successful career, no children, and I find myself very ambivalent about motherhood. I had a WONDERFUL stay-at-home mom, and I am terrified that I will not be able to be as good a mother to my child. The level of pressure and expectation leveled at mothers seems overwhelming and something that I'm not sure I could deal with. Not to mention the financial issues involved.

Still, I find myself thinking more and more about kids.

Have you talked to other women in similar situations?

Judith Warner: Yes, I have heard what you are saying before, particularly from younger women (I am -- gasp! -- 40). It's a terrible thing to think that we are frightening some younger women off motherhood, but that seems indeed to be what my generation is doing. Remember that life doesn't have to be lived in the frenzied way so many of us live it. And while there are real structural reasons for much of the pressure and guilt so many women experience, some of it is self-imposed. You don't have to take it on. And I bet that your mother would admire you for mothering in your own way.

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Potomac, Md: As someone who works outside the home and has two small children, I'm familiar with the midnight cupcake-baking sessions you reference in your book. I think my job outside the home keeps me a bit more balanced. I'm a teacher, and although I enjoy my summers with my kids, I often find myself obsessing about clean floors and child development to a degree I can't afford during the school year. My question: is this "perfect madness" at all a function of geography? I seems that life is more hectic and driven in Washington, D.C. than in my sleepier hometown of Rochester, NY. I remember my mom balancing her teaching career with sewing Halloween costumes, but she didn't spend as much time commuting and worrying about real estate prices. BTW, I'm so lucky she's moved to DC and is a huge help with my kids, often planning birthday parties and cheering at soccer games. I'm looking forward to your radio show...I think one of my friends from grad school (Amy Bowles-Reyer) is heading up a bunch of women's programming there.

Judith Warner: Yes, Amy is the head of the new channel I'm on, Take 5, and she is wonderful. I think that in many ways Washington, D.C. represents the most extreme point on the spectrum for the kinds of parenting behaviors I write about. It's not just that there's a lot of money in Upper North West and the suburbs, it's that you have a very homogenous population of people who have been overachievers all their lives and are reproducing the drivenness that led them to where they are in the way that they parent. It's difficult, because there seems to be a single model of success here -- both for parents and children.

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Bethesda, Md: I am a male who really enjoyed your book - I read it because my family is in the same place as many that you interview - Washington, D.C. -upper middle class - both educated - Mother stays home... I agree that there is a control 'freak' problem with many of the stay at home... is it possible in your opinion for husbands to help tame that inner 'controlling desire' that many of the moms in 'the mess' have?

Judith Warner: Absolutely. My husband tempers it in me, and I think many other husbands do the same. According to something I read in the British press recently, our brains are actually wired in such a way that we experience (and obsess upon) the details of life differently. Who knows if it's true -- but this is one instance in which we should celebrate our differences. I have, however, met fathers who break the mold -- who are more caught up in the "mess" than their wives.

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Washington, D.C.: Frankly, I haven't much sympathy for women who work themselves up into paroxysms of guilt regarding their choices. I have twin daughters and I work. So does their father. Both of us have a responsibility to support our children. I'm sure there are many people out there who would judge me to be a heartless mom; this causes me no problem whatsoever because I could not care less what others think of me or my choices.

Not to mention that this angst is largely a function of economic class. My father grew up extremely poor; both his parents worked their hearts out to make sure that their kids had enough to eat. I thank God every day that I and my kids will never know deprivation like that, and I'm certainly not going to indulge in pointless emotional drama about taking advantages of opportunities to support myself and my children comparatively easily.

Judith Warner: We all are more or less subject to outside pressures, and necessity does have a wonderful way of making what you need to do very clear.

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Silver Spring, Md.: Thanks for chatting! I thought the policy recommendations in your work, most of which are in one way or another tax breaks and subsidies to families, are interesting. I think many of them are a good idea--lots of families could use some economic relief, and should get it.

I am not sure they will help much to alleviate the "madness" discussed in your work--the control-freakishness in wealthy families that live better economic lives than most single people without families. Their worries seem more attitudinal than economic--obsessions with getting kids into the "right" ballet classes, ferrying babies to play dates and swim lessons, etc. Are there things governments can do to alleviate this problem?

Judith Warner: Not specifically, and you're right -- those are personal, attitudinal problems. But I still believe that in a society where people felt, on a basic level, that they were taken care of and that they had some kind of real power and influence, there would be less insane competition and less of a tendency towards controlling the little things people feel they are now able to control. I think the upper middle class might be less maniacal about their children's futures if it didn't look to them that their children would end up not being able to make ends meet if they didn't attend the most elite schools and go into the most elite professions. People don't want their kids to be worse off than they are now. I think the huge amount of anxiety about status in the upper middle class is partly a habit of mind -- a generalization of the behavior and thinking that brings people into the upper middle class in the first place. But it's also partly a reflection of the fact that, if you're not upper middle class in America, life can be really hard.

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Judith Warner: Thank you, everyone, for participating in this online chat with me today. I very much enjoyed it and hope to see you at the National Book Festival on Saturday -- Judy Warner

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