Book World Live

Joshua Wolf Shenk, "Lincoln's Melancholy"

Joshua Wolf Shenk is the author of "Lincoln's Melancholy," a new, groundbreaking work on Abraham Lincoln's depression. His biography was reviewed in the Oct. 2 issue of Book World .

Shenk was online Tuesday, Oct. 4 to talk about his book and the life and presidency of Abraham Lincoln.

Shenk has written for The New Yorker, Harper's Magazine, the Atlantic Monthly, the New York Times, Mother Jones, The Washington Post, and other publications. He appears in and consulted on a feature film about Lincoln's depression that will run in theaters this fall and air on the History Channel early next year.

Join Book World Live each Tuesday at 3 p.m. ET for a discussion based on a story or review in each Sunday's Book World section.

____________________

Joshua Wolf Shenk: This is Joshua Wolf Shenk, logging in. Thanks to the Post for hosting this forum, and to hello to you who are listening.

_______________________

Washington, DC: You offer a pretty creative and unheard of observations of President Linclon. Where did you get these notions?

Joshua Wolf Shenk: When I first heard about Lincoln's melancholy, in 1998, it sounded remarkable to me, too. What surprised me when I dug into this research is how thoroughly known and remarked upon the melancholy was among Lincoln's contemporaries -- his friends and colleagues, including those who wrote the first wave of books about him. (contd)

_______________________

Joshua Wolf Shenk: The creative work, then, was in assembling all those memories -- from letters, books, oral histories -- understanding them in the context of their time, and then translating them in a way that resonates today.

_______________________

Washington, DC: Mr. Shenk,

Did you encounter much hesistance from scholars and historians when you began probing into Lincoln's melancholy? I can imagine there are many out there who would rather place Lincoln on an untouchable pedestal than examine him closely as a complicated and conflicted man.

Joshua Wolf Shenk: Twenty years ago, I think I would have had a very hard time with this kind of study. But, as I write about in the book (in an afterward dedicated to the historiography) the deans of the field today are very open and interested in Lincoln's melancholy. For the most part, my findings have been really well received.

_______________________

Cogitate, Colo: Hello: why does it seem anyone who tries to think deeply, may at times be moody, and who's spirits ebb with a setback has to be depressed? Wasn't it just recently we were on Abe for being gay? Puts me in a funk, I tell ya.

Joshua Wolf Shenk: Your question seems to suppose that "depression" is a perjorative, rather than a value-neutral assessment of an affective state. In this, I suppose you reflect a widespread cultural assumption, but it's not one that I share. To me, depression is a landscape, and important to investigate on its own terms. This is all the more true for Lincoln, who existed in his own distinct culture that departed from many of our contemporary notions about depression.

_______________________

Joshua Wolf Shenk: The other important point in my book -- and this really surprises people who are used to thinking strictly in terms of diagnosis -- is that when you examine a person's whole life, you see not any state, but a progression. Lincoln's Melancholy is not a clinical assessment, but a story of a man whose suffering led him to a personal crisis, who worked fiercely to endure and adapt, and who ultimately came to a transcendent wisdom, which was fueled by the suffering and his salutary responses to it.

_______________________

San Antonio, Tex: We hear so much of Lincoln as humorist. Indeed, many books down the years have stressed this aspect of him. They seem to portray Lincoln as some sort of proto "Will Rogers" spinning jokes and witty stories with great skill. In your view, was Lincoln some sort of sad clown, using humor as a counterweight to his sadness or was his use of humor merely part of his "political toolkit" of self-taught persuasive skills to be used against any person or audience? How do we reconcile these two greatly opposed aspects of his character in our historical understanding of him?

Joshua Wolf Shenk: Both. Lincoln definitely used humor deliberately and strategically. But he also relied on it in times of need, as a tool to connect with other people, and to laugh in the face of misery. As to how we reconcile these diverse aspects, I think the main task is to understand how commonly they run together, and how they are part of the same existential ecosystem. Forgive that phrase if it sounds pretentious, but I mean to suggest that people are a lot more complicated in their everyday lives than we often recognize in our public discourse. The funniest people are often the saddest people (not always, but often). That's an indelible reality. And, when you think about it, it's not surprising. We laugh at what's real. And what's real is also very often painful.

_______________________

Philadelphia, Pa.: How did Abraham Lincoln and his wife interact with each other's depressions?

Joshua Wolf Shenk: I appreciate the way you phrase this question, because it's so different than the usual question I get, which goes like: "Mary Lincoln was a nut, wasn't she?" Yes, Mrs. Lincoln was a troubled woman -- troubled in ways that I don't pretend to fully understand. She deserves her own full study, has received a number of very good ones. Yet, I do investigate in the book how she and her husband affected one another. What's fascinating is to watch how Lincoln, in his early years of the marriage, moved away from his earlier predilictions toward regular and dramatic expressions of his suffering and woe, towards a stoicism and reserve. I suppose that his wife's presence -- her fits of anger and so on -- influenced him in that direction.

_______________________

Bethesda, Md.: From the reviews of your book, I almost get the impression that you are romanticizing depression. Although there does seem to be a disproportionate prevalence of depression and bipolar disorder among creative sorts, it also seems clear that they are utterly unproductive in the depths of their abyss. Assuming you agree with that observation (perhaps informed by your candidly-presented personal experience), how do you reconcile these tendencies? Do you think it is the added incentive of "less time available, so make the most of it" that causes them to be more creative with their time on the way down and up?

Joshua Wolf Shenk: I appreciated Mr. Miller's review for its warmth and intelligence, but I don't agree with him in this respect. On the one hand, he wondered whether my book was "pro-depression." Yet he also supposed that the book is full of gloom, and difficulty. I think the trouble here is with the assumption that any entity must be all good, or entirely awful. I don't see things that way. I just spent an evening last night with a friend who can't hear in one ear. Without question, this is a debility, and one that causes her some grief, and difficulty. Yet, as she tells me, it also magnifies an odd sense of subtle pleasure in the way that she hears the world. (Also, when she puts her "good" ear toward the phone, she doesn't hear noise around her in the office!) I think all of us have examples of complex debilities which, strangely, become assets in some way. We live with it, yet the vocabulary of medicine doesn't let us capture it, and discuss it with each other.

_______________________

New York, NY: I'm driving myself nuts trying to figure out how I know you. Did you work at US News & World Report in the mid-90s? I'm looking forward to reading your book.

Joshua Wolf Shenk: Indeed, I did. I was a national reporter from November 1996 to March 1998, when I left to go write essays, and this book.

_______________________

Takoma Park, Md.: Hi, Your book sounds very interesting. I've read part of your article in the Atlantic (so far) and found myself wondering whether you'd read Peter Kramer's new book, "Against Depression." His thesis is that by every marker, depression is a real and serious illness that puts sufferers at risk for a number of other illnesses, and that attributing "depth" to depressive symptoms glorifies the disease and prevents people from getting treatment. Your book seems to make different assumptions. Do you have any thoughts or reactions to that, or to the Wash. Post reviewer's comment that at times your book seemed to be "pro-depression" (which I don't take to be your view)?

Thanks for the chat!

Joshua Wolf Shenk: Absolutely, depression is a real problem that needs attention and care. I don't think this excludes the possibility that it can add complexity and depth to our lives. And anyone who doubts that such things can coexist should read this story. Lincoln spent a good portion of his life getting help. He insisted on being seen as a sufferer, and he provoked everything from radical interventions (in the form of "suicide watches") to the subtle nurturing and care of friends and colleagues. At the same time, Lincoln -- passing through the fiery trial of his pain -- reached extraordinary heights of tenderness, realism, and purposeful humility.

_______________________

Phialdelphia, Pa.: Is growing a beard, as Lincoln did, at all indicative of a person receeding into a desire to hide from the rest of the world? Or is this reading too much into the situation?

Joshua Wolf Shenk: To paraphrase Dr. Freud, sometimes a beard is just a beard. Seriously, I try to avoid such speculation, which has become a characteristic of what's known as "psychobiography." I prefer to focus on well-established facts, and reasonable interpretations.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: I have read that Lincoln had some kind of accident which may have caused brain damage and hence mental problems. Do you know anything about this?

Joshua Wolf Shenk: Yes, when Lincoln was twelve, he was kicked in the head by a horse, and knocked unconscious for an evening. One psychiatrist -- his name is Edward Kempf -- has argued that this caused brain damage, which created Lincoln's depression. Kempf's work is often outlandish -- a great example of the speculative excess of psychobiography -- but there may well be something to this hypothesis. I'm afraid I don't know.

_______________________

Rockville, Md: Thank you for participating in today's chat, Mr. Shenk. I was wondering if Lincoln participated in any rituals and/or activities to help cope with his depressive episodes? I'm reminded of how Winston Churchill fought what he referred to as his "Black Dog" spells by (I believe) painting pictures and laying bricks.

Joshua Wolf Shenk: Thanks to you. I devote the whole second section of my book to this question. Perhaps I should take a step back and tell you that the story begins with the manifestation of Lincoln's depression. In part one, after a brief consideration of the melancholy's origins, I tell the amazing story of Lincoln's two suicidal breakdowns -- the first when he was 26, the second when he was 32. This leads us to a time when Lincoln was on the edge that separates life and death, and came to the realization that, while he could kill himself, he must not, because he had something important to live for. This was a glimpse of great things to come. Yet, before he could achieve that greatness (the stirring end of the story) he had to slog through the hard middle. He had to learn to recognize his depression for what it was, to face its grim realities. And he had to develop strategies to respond to it. Two things he relied on heavily are resonant with the painting and brick-laying you mention with Mr. Churchill. In Lincoln's case, the artistic outlet was reading, reciting -- and, in several cases, writing -- maudlin, emotive poetry. The workaday equivalent to bricklaying was his political work. He once wrote to his friend that if his mind "weren't right," he'd get to work, or go about making preparations for work. Lincoln didn't just offer this advice, but he lived it. Of course the other principal strategy was his humor, which we've touched on briefly.

_______________________

Columbus, Ohio: You talk about Lincoln's melancholy becoming worse after an achievement.

I wonder how finishing your book after so many years and being at the height of it, so to speak, has affected you.

Joshua Wolf Shenk: You talk about Lincoln's melancholy becoming worse after an achievement. I wonder how finishing your book after so many years and being at the height of it, so to speak, has affected you. My answer: I've learned a lot from Lincoln. Mostly, so far, it's come from following his example in the depths of difficulty. It took seven years to research and write this book. Sometime in there, my first editor basically abandoned the project, leaving me with a mountain of research, a head full of ideas, and the grim prospect that the project I'd devoted so much of my life to would never see the light of day. It was a dark time. But in the midst of it, I kept remembering the essential question - which comes up in Lincoln's life over and over again: "What is this really about?" Or put it another way: "Yes, you're suffering, but what are you suffering for?" Strangely, the harder things got, the clearer my answer became. I wanted to tell the story of this man's suffering, and how he lived with it, and where it led him. I believed this story would be meaningful to other people, because it's meant so much to me. Now, I'm in a really different place. A great editor picked up the project, and guided me through the writing and revision of a new draft. The book is out, and a lot of people have responded to it. I appreciate this, and it could bring some nice things. It also, as you suggest, brings its own challenges. It's hard to be criticized, for example. But I intend to remind myself of the same question: What is this for? Who am I trying to serve? I've got a pretty clear answer to that question, which carried me through the rough times and, if I'm lucky, will carry me through the good times, too.

_______________________

Joshua Wolf Shenk: Thanks to everyone who attended. These were great questions, and I'm sorry I couldn't get to many very good ones. For those of you who are still curious, I'd be honored if you took a look at my book, and let me know what you think when you've read it. (By far the cheapest price, by the way, is through this link: http://www.bn.com/shenk.) I'll have lincolnsmelancholy.com up in a few days, where you can learn more, and get in touch. All best, Josh

_______________________

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.