Bennett's Remarks Elicit Controversy

Former Education Secretary Made Remarks on Talk Show Last Week

Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson was online Wednesday, Oct. 5, at 1 p.m. ET to discuss his most recent column, A Specious 'Experiment,' in which he looks at the controversial comments of former Secretary of Education William Bennett .

The transcript follows.

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Eugene Robinson: Hi, everybody. I'll be here for the next hour to talk about anything you'd like to raise. My last couple of columns were about Bill Bennett (yesterday) and Tom DeLay (last Friday). As for Harriet Miers, your guess is as good as mine at this point.

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Washington D.C.: Mr. Robinson,

Your bio says: "In a 25-year career at The Washington Post, Robinson has been city hall reporter, city editor, foreign correspondent in Buenos Aires and London, foreign editor, and assistant managing editor in charge of the paper's award-winning Style section."

Since you became a columnist, you have consistently expressed left-wing liberal positions and disdain for conservatives and Republicans.

My question to you: were you fair to Republicans/conservatives when you were a straight news reporter and editor?

Eugene Robinson: I hope so. At least I tried to be. There are some journalists who try to purge themselves of political views in order to be as objective as possible. Len Downie, the executive editor of The Washington Post, is perhaps the most famous example: He does not vote in elections, period. I respect that view -- it's usually a good idea to respect the boss's view -- but I don't share it. I do have political views, obviously, and always did, but I tried my best to keep them out of my straight-news coverage, both as a reporter and an editor. Now that I'm on the op-ed page, I get to speak in a completely different tone of voice.

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San Luis Obispo, Calif.: Mr. Robinson:

I've enjoyed your columns in the Post the last few weeks. Thank you for them and for doing this chat.

My question: What was the question or comment that Mr. Bennett was responding to when he commented about the crime rate being lowered by aborting black babies? Was it something like, "Do you see a connection between the lowering of the crime rate and more abortions?" Or did the question mention black people specifically?

Eugene Robinson: The question that got Bill Bennett into hot water was on a completely different topic -- Social Security. The caller had suggested that one argument for being against abortion was to encourage population growth so that there would be more workers in the future to pay Social Security benefits for old-timers. Bennett was cautioning the caller not to put too much stock in those sweeping arguments about the demographic effect of abortion on other issues. Then, in the next breath, Bennett bought into one of those very arguments with his riff on blacks and crime.

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Washington, D.C.: I am appalled by the comments of Mr. Bennett. I have not seen this more widely reported in the media. You support an open discussion about race in America, but why is a catalyst issue such as this being predominantly ignored?

Eugene Robinson: I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this one. Bennett's remarks got a lot of coverage -- and I mean a lot. As they deserved, in my view.

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Laurel, Md.: I'm pretty sure we both understand that the point Mr. Bennett was trying to make is that arguments about the demographics it would produce are not good elements to use in debates about abortion, right?

Now let's suppose Bennett had said "if we aborted the fetus of every unmarried pregnant woman...it would reduce crime", he would have been making the same argument and most everyone would agree he's right.

Instead of saying "unmarried" he said "black" so now it sounds like a direct route from black from crime. But we know, don't we, that two-thirds of black babies are born to unmarried parents. A fact you neglected to mention in your column.

Let's look at two problems facing black America:

A. There are a lot of whites who hold negative view of African-Americans, believing they're culturally and intellectually inferior. Although they keep their opinions largely secret because our society has proscriptions about openly expressing or acting on them, they represent an invisible, subtle barrier to black advancement.

B. Two-thirds of black children are born to unwed parents, and many of those will grow up poor, under-educated and with unstable home lives. Many of the boys will grow up to go to prison; leaving many of the girls to raise another generation of impoverished children on their own.

Now, as barriers to African-American success, what is the relevant importance of A and B? And how much energy do African-American opinion leaders (like you) spend complaining about A and B?

Eugene Robinson: No, I don't think "we both understand" at all. Bill Bennett can come up with any theory he wants, but he said he was referring to the book "Freakonomics" by University of Chicago economist Steven Levitt. Here's what Levitt says on his blog athttp://www.freakonomics.com/ about Bennett's remarks: "Race is not an important part of the abortion-crime argument that John Donohue and I have made in academic papers and that [Stephen J.] Dubner and I discuss in 'Freakonomics.'" He goes on to say that while some people may think he's ducking the race issue, in fact he is not. "I mean it when I say that, from a purely fact-based and statistical perspective, race is not in any way central to our arguments about abortion and crime." So Bennett didn't understand the research.

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Washington, D.C.: Considering that the demographic of your average, run-of-the-mill multibillion dollar thief (e.g.: Bernie Ebbers, Dennis Koslowski, Kenneth Lay, John Rigas) is a white male over 50, perhaps Bennett's point would have been better illustrated by a policy of executing white men over the safe age of 35 in order to create financial transparency. Somehow, I doubt he (or his audience) would have seen the humor in such comments.

The same point could be made for serial killers.

Eugene Robinson: True. On his blog, economist Levitt goes on to say that "it would also be true that if we aborted every white, Asian, male, Republican and Democratic baby in that [sic] world, crime would also fall." So if Bennett wants to take a really extreme approach to law and order...

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Washington, D.C.: Bill Cosby will agreed with Bill Bennett. So do a lot of African-Americans but they are shut down by NAACP leaders.

Eugene Robinson: Bill Cosby has had a lot to say about personal responsibility, teenaged motherhood and a host of other important issues. But no, let me go out on a limb and say he will not join Bill Bennett in speculating about submitting black mothers -- even teenaged, single mothers -- to abortions to lower the crime rate.

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Washington, D.C.: It really bothers me, a black female, to know that people (especially those of power and influence) would entertain such absurd thinking. Does this speak to the man's inner self? (Remember Trent Lott.) What would Bennett say about Hitler, the BTK killer, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer and the bigots of the South who were overtly active during the time prior to the "civil rights" movement and covertly active since?

Eugene Robinson: Of course Bill Bennett would oppose all those monsters. The ironic thing is that he doesn't support abortion at all. But what intrigued me was the "inner self" question. What made him think "every black baby"? Clearly, one element was that he didn't really grasp the full argument that economist Levitt had made. But did this reflect some assumptions that he holds, perhaps without even realizing that he holds them?

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Washington D.C.: Mr. Robinson,

First a comment. I am a white woman (that you love) and always appreciate your perspective on issues relating to race. I had lost my patience with the damsel in distress theme about a month before you wrote about it. I made sure I got others to read your points, so much more eloquently said than me. As for Bill Bennett, I agree with you that his remarks are validation of Kanye West's statement. But I think that most days serve up additional validation, especially post-Katrina.

Now my question. I have heard this rumor about the dynamite at the levees that protected the lower 9th. You indicated you were hearing a lot on this. Can you tell me if you have researched this at all, or if anyone is researching the allegation? Even if wildly untrue, I believe it's the reporting of a crime, and it has to be investigated.

Thank you.

Eugene Robinson: When I was in New Orleans writing about the flood, and later when I got back to Washington, I heard from a lot of people the story about levees being dynamited to flood the poor, black Ninth Ward and save the rich, white parts of the city. In this business it's best to avoid categorical statements, but I'm as sure as I could be that nothing like this happened. Since so many people think it did, though, the issue ought to be dealt with once and for all in commission reports on the tragedy. Some people told me they "heard the explosions," but another thing you learn as a reporter is that a lot of things sound like explosions -- including, I'll bet, the sound of a concrete flood wall suddenly cracking apart.

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New York, N.Y.: Earlier this year, a local New York hip hop station (Hot 97) got into trouble worldwide for a (badly sung) song written as a "parody" on the Tsunami disaster in south Asia.

After introducing the "Tsunami Song," DJ Miss Jones and co-host Todd Lynn launch into an abusive tirade against Miss Info (another co-anchor) when she voices her objection to it. Miss Jones finally tells Info she's only complaining because "you feel superior, probably because you're Asian."

Then after Miss Info says the song is offensive to Asians, co-host Todd Lynn informs her: "I'm gonna start shooting Asians."

As a result of this, the Asian community and others of all colours that were equally horrified and angered by the song and the verbage spewed over the airs rallied, organized and essentially forced the radio station to take action.

Now - were either Todd Lynn (who was fired) or Miss Jones (real name, Tasha Nicole Jones, was suspended for a short period of time) racists? Probably not. But society and culture definitely seems to welcome these "shock" statements from those on radio these days. Is Bennett so different? Isn't that why he's ON the air? To spew this garbage to gain publicity and to make more money for his station?

Eugene Robinson: An excellent question, because it brings us to the sophomoric playpen that is talk radio. Gee, what could be "funnier" than a parody on the tsunami, in which hundreds of thousands of human beings died? What a riot! I confess that I never developed an appreciation for this kind of humor, and never will. As for Bennett, if talk television is about sound bites, talk radio is about blah blah blah -- you've got to fill a whole lot of air time. If you want to gain and keep an audience, you've got to be "provocative," which is often a synonym for "wrong." So I think Bennett was swept along by these two imperatives -- keep talking, and don't be so even-handed and reasonable that overcaffeinated talk-radio listeners get bored and turn the dial.

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Washington D.C.: I can't defend Bennett's comments, but can you shed light on one thing he was alleging?

Do blacks actually commit a disproportionate share of crime? Blacks represent about 12 percent of the U.S. population, correct? Is it true that blacks commit more than 25 percent of the crimes in the U.S.?

Eugene Robinson: Yes, blacks do commit a disproportionate share of crime. However, this isn't because of race, it's because of income and other socio-economic factors, at least according to Levitt: "a white person and a black person who grow up next door to each other with similar incomes and the same family structure would be predicted to have the same crime involvement."

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Hackensack, N.J.: Since William Bennett is a former secretary of education, couldn't he have also made a similar extreme argument that if we were to educate every black baby, the crime rate would drop?

Eugene Robinson: That sounds like what you might expect from a former education secretary.

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Alexandria, Va.: I suggest you read Freakonomics (it's not long) and report back if Levitt is ducking the race issue, or if Bennett was drawing conclusions implicit in the text. There's also a chapter on names and economic success.

Eugene Robinson: I've read Freakonomics. I've read Steven Levitt's original paper on this subject, and his original paper on "black" names and economic prospects. He was one of my son's professors at the University of Chicago. He is not one to shy away from controversy and not one to shy away from discussion of race, so I have to conclude that what you see as "implicit in the text" is not actually there. Check out his blog. He says it isn't there.

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Baltimore, Md.: Re deliberate flooding of the Ninth Ward: You may have mentioned this in your column, but the fact is that during the 1927 flood, the levees in New Orleans that protected the black neighborhoods were deliberately breached to protect the French Quarter and Garden District. It's historical fact. That was fewer than 80 years ago, so it's small wonder that rumor got started.

Eugene Robinson: Back to the flood for a moment: In the Great Mississippi Flood of 1927, what happened was that the authorities, in an attempt to save New Orleans, dynamited some levees downstream and flooded the homes and fields of some poor black and white farmers in St. Bernard's parish. In the aftermath, whites were better treated than blacks. Also in 1927, further north in the Delta near Greenwood, Miss., blacks were not only flooded out of their fields but forced into labor gangs afterwards to repair the levees. This contributed to the Great Migration, because as soon as they could, a lot of these people got on the next train to Chicago.

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Washington, D.C.: Good point on the socioeconomic factors contributing to a higher crime rate among blacks -- and probably among lower-income whites, as well.

Unless the U.S. converts to strict socialism, there will always be some people who are poorer than others. But the other socioeconomic factors can change. There is no good reason why 67 percent of poor black children must be raised by unmarried mothers. This CAN be prevented by ways other than abortion, can't it?

Eugene Robinson: Sure it can, but I've seen no evidence that preaching and finger-wagging will do the trick. Most of black America is much better off, economically and educationally and in every other sense, than ever before. But a significant segment of black America has been literally left behind. Just saying "stop having babies" isn't a plan.

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Washington, D.C.: Hi Mr. Robinson, always enjoy your columns (though I don't always agree).

Just my 2 cents on Bill Bennett: The problem with his remarks is not that anyone actually believes that he wants to have all black babies aborted (or any at all).

Rather, it is twofold:

First, he simultaneously rejects Levitt's argument that unwanted children growing up in a high-risk environment are more prone to crime, yet implies at the same time that black children are more prone to crime--by virtue of their race, he seems to think. Now it's true that the violent crime rate among blacks is higher than for the general population. It's also true that black children are more likely to grow up in poverty and fatherless. Whether you believe that a bad childhood or race contributes to criminal behavior is something of a Rorschach test, and Bennett showed us clearly which side he fell on.

Second, after a caller made an (admittedly idiotic) unrelated comment (Social Security and abortion, NOT crime), Bennett makes a comment linking blacks to crime.

It's not his calling for the abortion of black fetuses that people are upset over, it's his statement that basically amounts to: "Black people are criminals."

Eugene Robinson: Your 2 cents agrees with my 2 cents. Thanks or writing.

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Hamilton, Va.: On the subject of Harriet Miers. David Frum states that she has said George Bush is the most brilliant man she has ever met. I think that says a whole lot about her judgment.

Eugene Robinson: Got to get in at least one Harriet Miers question. I, too, thought that was an amazing statement -- regardless of what I might think about its plausibility. The impression you get, really, is of something close to sycophancy. I think it's good that a president would have aides who were so admiring and loyal. I'm not sure it's good to put them on the Supreme Court.

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Silver Spring, Md.: What makes you so sure that blacks commit a proportionately greater percentage of crimes compared to other races? Isn't it possible that blacks are simply arrested more often? After all, I thought there was at least some credence to the notion of "driving while black" as a criminal offense. One can assume that the likelihood of arrest is equal, but I don't think any of the publicly available crime data can prove that.

Eugene Robinson: As one who drives-while-black all the time, I certainly take your point -- that would be a mitigating factor. But I do think the crime statistics are persuasive. What's not persuasive is blaming the disparity on skin color, because when you control for other factors, skin color is irrelevant.

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Brooklyn, N.Y.: I've appreciated the opportunity to read your columns. As for the too-liberal complaints, the Post publishes plenty of other viewpoints, mostly conservative.

What has interested me about the Bill Bennett/Katrina coverage controversies is the sense that so many white Americans apparently really thought race issues were truly past history. Do you think this misperception is media-driven or media consumption is driven by the misperception?

Eugene Robinson: Both. I think we in the media haven't been paying attention. I think the public in general has seen large numbers of black Americans enter the suburban mainstream, and we've all neglected to look back at those who haven't made it over the hurdles. When there's a black foursome ahead of you on the golf course, and you have black co-workers and maybe a black boss, it's easy to understand how you could conclude that this race thing has been all taken care of. But the truth is that it hasn't.

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Arlington, Va.: Mr. Robinson,

Have you heard the whole conversation from Mr. Bennett or have you only read the transcript?

If you have heard the whole conversation ---and not the snippet provided by George Soros' Media Matters--- a reasonable person can see he was making a point by pointing out the extreme solution. An example of this is....how do you reduce traffic accidents???? Prohibit the sale of gasoline. Problem solved.

Having heard the whole conversation, you have missed the mark....and I think it is intentional.

Eugene Robinson: I've heard the whole thing, and the only thing "intentional" about my interpretation is to highlight how he injected race into the argument when there was no need to do so.

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Eugene Robinson: My time's up -- boy, that was a quick hour. Let's do this again soon. Thanks for writing in, and sorry if I didn't get to your question -- I'll try to make up for it next time.

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