Color of Money Book Club

Michelle Singletary hosted author Nora Raum for a discussion of this month's Color of Money Book Club selection -- "Surviving Personal Bankruptcy" (Gotham, $20.00).

A transcript follows.

Read Michelle's past Color of Money columns .

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Michelle Singletary: Hey folks. Well, it's official the new bankruptcy law is not in effect. I'm eager to see how this all shakes out. Well let's get started.

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Arlington, Va.: With no alternative, I filed because an ex boyfriend use my personal info to get numerous credit cards, maxed them and left me stuck. He approved himself as co-user. Why isn't he equally responsible for the debt and is there anyway I can "help" the trustee to collect from him to pay the debts; he has assets and I have liens on his vehicles.

Also, I had perfect credit record and solid history before this occurred, so why are card companies so stupid to allow such obvious fraud to occur?

Nora Raum: Dear Arlington:

It sounds as if he owes you money. That's a property right. The trustee could go after him and collect the money to pay the creditors. You should provide as much information as you have on where he lives and what assets he has. Help the trustee go get him! But don't get too excited because many trustees are hesitant to spend a lot of time on something that might not be too prodcutive. If he scammed you and the credit card companies, it probably wouldn't be too hard for this clown to evade the trustee.

Nora

Michelle Singletary: Just wondering, why didn't you file a police report on this bum or at least tell the credit card companies the charges were fraudulent since you didn't approve of him using your card? If you didn't know about these cards then by law you would not have been held liable for the debts?

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Washington, D.C.: Hi Michelle,

This isn't about the book. My question is, is there an advantage to having multiple credit cards? My current card has everything I want in a rewards program and a low rate, but I want a little more credit.

I'm debating whether to apply for another card or to simply ask for my current limit to be raised.

FYI, I manage my current card fine (no outstanding balances). I just want more credit for large purchases.

Michelle Singletary: You don't NEED another card. Call your current company tell them you are thinking about switching because you want a larger credit limit. Also, throw in you'll like a lower rate. I'm willing to bet at the very least they will raise your credit limit and as a bonus you may get a lower rate.

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Birmingham, Ala.: If I'm behind on my mortgage payments and I file bankruptcy and then sign over my house to a 3rd party(buyer) am I still liable for that payment if I quit claim deed it to another? Once I file bk can the court consider the house note in bk or is it the sole responsibility of the party I agreed to sell it to?

Nora Raum: Hello, Birmingham ---

You've got a couple of things working here. One is the responsibility for the debt and the other is the ownership of the property. Filing the bankruptcy will get you out from paying the mortgage. You're no longer responsible for it. It doesn't matter if you sign the property over to someone else. Just giving the property away doesn't obligate the other person to pay the debt. And once you file bankruptcy, you can't give the property away until the trustee decides whether there's anything that can be taken for your creditors.

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Los Angeles, Calif.: I just filed for personal Bankruptcy.

My daughter will be graduating college and trying to buy property in about 5 years. I want to help her. Will I help or hurt her by applying for the financing with her. I am employed and our combined income will be about 90K.

Nora Raum: Dear LA:

Five years is a long time. My clients report they can sometimes buy houses three or four years after filing, without a co-signer. The trick is what you do in the next five years. Slowly, establish new credit and pay every bill on time. But just as important is what your daughter does in the next five years. I hope she's not one of those kids who graduate with a $5,000 credit card bill and nothing to show for it. She needs to establish her own credit, just like you, slowly and carefully.

Nora

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Caldwell, Texas: My husband and I were among the stupid/naive people who were wiped out by the Enron debacle. We had always lived carefully and planned for the future, but our assets went from well over $2 million to a hardscrabble existence in a rented house, hoping we both stay healthy until Medicare kicks in. We went from planning to leave our 4 children a decent inheritance to depending on them for day to day living expenses. Fortunately they are all doing well and don't seem to begrudge us the assistance, but you know it has to hurt. Ironically, had we spent beyond our means, lived high on the hog, traveled, owned expensive cars, etc., we would have wound up in exactly the same situation we are in now.

My question: this may sound naive again, but shouldn't bankruptcy courts consider the circumstances of the filer? It seems to me that people like us who did everything right but were wiped out by corporate corruption or massive medical bills should receive more consideration than those who simply spent beyond their means on personal pleasure.

We always enjoy your columns and chats even though we are no longer in a position to benefit from most of your advice.

Nora Raum: Caldwell,

When Congress debated the new bankruptcy bill (I refuse to use the word reform), there were proposals to do just that - to take into account the reason why people file bankruptcy. But none of those proposals made it into the final legislation. That's one of the many inequities in the new law - no distinctions.

By the way, the vast majority of people I see in bankruptcy ended up there for reasons they couldn't control, such as job loss, divorce or health expenses.

Lobby Congress to change the law again!

Nora

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College Park, Md.: Hi, Michele, thanks for being on-line to talk with us. Do you think that now because of the new bankruptcy law that the housing market will cool somewhat or dramatically. Or will it have any affect. Thanks.

Michelle Singletary: That's such an interesting question. But I don't think there will be a connection to cooling housing market and bankruptcy. Actually the foreclosure rates are still pretty low. So even tho folks are buying bigger homes with even bigger mortgages SOMEHOW they are holding it together. Probably because other bills are not getting paid or paid late. I may be wrong but I guess we will see in the next several months.

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Ft. Washington, Md.: How do people slip and fall into bankruptcy? Look at your health insurance policy! Our new rates came in with hefty increases and some hard choices. Looking closely at the benefits offered by the cheaper plan, it has a $6,000 deductible per person and then a 70/30 split on coverage. T

Nora Raum: Ft. Washington:

Health care is one of the main reasons people find themselves in bankruptcy. I often use an example from my practice where a client had to file because of one uninsured heart attack. He had no credit cards or loans - just one weekend in the hospital.

But as you point out, even people with health insurance can fall into the same hard times. In fact, most of the cases I see have at least two or three debts that are health related.

Nora

Michelle Singletary: Ah, but you be surprised at the number of people who think folks who file for bankruptcy are the sprendthrifts just trying to get out of their finanicials responsibilities. Where is the compassion in this country?

Do people spending wilding when they shouldn't? Sure they do. But many, many people find themselves in bankruptcy because of "life" -- an illness, loss job, divorce, major crisis.

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Temple Hills, Md.: Hello Ms. Singletary and Ms. Raum,

If you filed bankruptcy but missed some creditors are you able to place those debts with the already filed/discharged bankruptcy?

Nora Raum: Hello Temple Hills:

If your case was filed but hasn't yet been discharged, you can file an amendment to include those creditors you missed. If the case is already discharged, some courts have held that a debt in a no-asset Chapter 7 is discharged even if it wasn't listed, as long as it was left out by mistake. In that situation, I write a letter to the creditor and send a copy of the judge's order that says that. That seems to do the trick. Call the lawyer who handled your case to see what you should do.

By the way, nothing I type here can be construed as legal advice. I'd have to know a lot more about your situation and formally take your case to give actual advice.

Nora (sorry she didn't include the disclaimer until now.)

Michelle Singletary: Yes folks, please ALWAYS realize what I say or what my guest say is for general informational purposes. We can't possibly know your entire situation but we do try to point you in the right direction (and with me at times fuss you in the right direction)

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SW D.C.: Don't mean to second guess you, but are you sure that it is best to 'build up reserves first and then think about paying down debt'? I think I have always heard to pay off all credit cards first then use that money to build a savings accout.

Thanks.

Michelle Singletary: Actually you should try to pay down debt AND build up reserves. Why? Because it always rains and you need an umbrella i.e. if you spend ALL your savings and extra cash paying down debt what happens when it rains (your car breaks down, you lose your job, etc. You need cash handy for the emergencies so you don't end up adding on more debt if something happens.

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Washington, DC: I have filled out my petition for bankruptcy and I am about to file it. I only have 20k in personal debt. I don't have a home and I have 2 children. I want to own a home in the next 5 years. How is this going to affect me?

Nora Raum: Hello D.C.:

I can't answer that question with any certainty. Obviously, having a bankruptcy will hurt your credit report. But you have to weigh all your options here. Bankruptcy may be the best way if you can't dig yourself out of debt in a reasonable time, say two or three years. If your creidt is now completely shot and that $20,000 could turn into $30,000 in that time, you might be better off filing and starting over right now.

But you need to consult with someone on this. I strongly suggest that you not try to file yourself. The law changed Monday. It's now even harsher for debtors and there are many more hoops to jump through. If you miss just one of them, your case will be dismissed and you'll have a bankruptcy filing on your record without the benefit of getting rid of your debts.

Nora

Michelle Singletary: Also remember now BEFORE you file you HAVE to go thu credit counseling.

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Alexandria, Va.: Can an employer or future employer find out if someone has filed for bankruptcy? How does bankruptcy affect current or future employment? I ask because I have heard that employers run credit checks on potential employees and so do car insurance companies.

Thanks!!

Michelle Singletary: Well, before an employer runs a credit check on you the company has to get your permission. If you give it, there is a chance that the company may not like what it sees.

Personally, I don't think how you handle your personal finances should be any business of theirs. But companies argue that if they are hiring you for a position involving money or in the case of the government for a classified positition -- how you handle your money may indicate if you will cheat or be open to bribery.

And car insurance companies have long been claiming that people with poor credit ratings are an insurance risk. I don't buy it but it's what's happening these days -- you are being judged for home loans, car insurance even employment based partly on what your credit report/credit score says.

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St. Augustine, Fla.: The credit card companies now have cart blanche. Is there any hope that congress will make changes to force creditors to negotiate better terms before it goes into default or bankruptcy. The acceleration of the fees and interest is absurd and if they could force you to give up a kidney they would! Is their know hope for the 99% of the consumers who wanted to make it right but couldn't find a new job or new spouse soon enough to make the minimum payments. I am tired of ALL bankruptcies being characterized as cheats and fraud. Was United Airlines fraudulent to their creditors? Or, should they have foreseen 911? Well, consumers also have bad unforeseen things happen in their life! And, the $100 per month income rule! What a joke, they should call it THE FULL TANK OF GAS RULE!

Nora Raum: St. Augustine:

I don't think there's much hope that Congress will try to rein in the creidt card industry. During the debate on the new law, there were several modest suggestions to crack down on predatory lending. For example, there was one proposal to require the companies to put on the statement how long it would take to pay off the debt if just the minimum payment was made. That was rejected.

Michelle Singletary: As I always say CREDIT IS EVIL...necessary these days but EVIL.

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Alexandria, Va.: Absolutely love the weekly chats and advice column. I am in my early fifties, single, no kids, employed as fed with 20 yrs. I have a TSP plus Roth IRA, low balance on my 1st & 2nd Mortgages, no cc debt, car paid off, over 15k in savings. I read about the necessity of having life insurance, but since I am not leaving anything to anyone, what do I need a $50,000 policy for?

Michelle Singletary: You don't! Just make sure you put aside some money for your funeral.

But may I may a suggestion -- you can leave something to somebody. Do you have siblings, nieces, nephews, cousins who could use some financial help? What about a favorite charity, your church, Temple? You have a lot to leave so think about an estate plan that would benefit someone or some group.

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Atlanta: How do creditors look at bankruptcy when looking at credit report?

Why does it take so long for the discharge? I've been told 45+ days, and what are they auditing after you paid your bankruptcy out?

Nora Raum: Atlanta:

Bankruptcy isn't a good thing to have on your credit report, of course, but there's less stigma than there used to be. Creditors vary on how they deal with it. It's a matter of shopping around.

The discharge is usually entered about 90 days after the filing of a Cahpter 7. This is to give the creditors or the trustee's office enough time to object to something. For example, a creditor can object to a particular debt being discharged on fraud grounds. The rest of the debts would be discharged but that particular claim would have to be dealth with.

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Del Rio, Texas: What is going to happen to your average Joe who has a wife and two kids, lives very moderately, has few bills, then gets sick, loses his job and has $400,000 in unpaid medical bills. Should he just tell the hosiptal staff to pull the plug, he's dead anyway? He'll be paying off his debts right to the grave--and then they'll bill him for the hole.

Michelle Singletary: Can we all say universal health care?

Hey if our president can find money out the air to rebuild New Orleans or pay for a war overseas then why not take care of one of the most pressing issues today -- health care costs that are driving many hardworking Americans into bankruptcy.

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Fredericksburg, VA: Why is there no talk about the ripple effect of bankruptcy? It's not just running out on a credit card co. I had a tenant declare bankruptcy after being 3 mos. in arrears, Then I couldn't evict bc they were in bankruptcy. Almost pushed me there too!!!

Nora Raum: Fredericksburg --

The new law is quite a bit kinder to creditors. For example, the new law allows you to evict if you already had the order before the bankruptcy was filed.

Michelle Singletary: And you are right. People who gave you money on good faith, sold you goods or rented you a place to live deserve to be paid. So before anyone files for bankruptcy I think they should do everything in their power to make good on their debt obligations -- and honestly I think most folks do.

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Buy a house 2 yrs after bankruptcy?: I am 35, and declaired bankruptcy this summer due to exorbitant costs associated with emergency surgery I had last summer when I was between jobs. I have never owned a home, and was hoping to start a savings plan to do just that when I became sick.

I've heard rumors I could buy a house within two years of declaring bankrupcty - but how do I do that?

Nora Raum: I have no real answer to that. Look around and see what's out there. You might have to come up with a larger down payment and pay a higher interest rate. There's no real rules on what someone can do, but I have had clients buy houses - maybe not two years - but three years after filing. While you're still trying to buy a house, save all you can.

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Dallas, TX: I recently filed Bankruptcy and have discovered things I was not told. Will I ever get a decent interest rate again with auto or mortgage loans? Most applications ask "have you EVER filed for bankruptcy?". By answering this question, it seems that I will always be a banking risk. What is your opinion?

Nora Raum: Dear Dallas:

Once again it's a matter of shopping around. It might help if you have a chance to explain what happened. Time is your new best friend. I've had clients buy houses three or four years after filing. And in 19 years of practicing law, I've never had a client tell me they were sorry they filed.

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Less debt vs. more savings.: Let's say, for example, I have $100 in credit card debt at 18% interest. I have no savings. I earn $100.

Scenario A, I pay off the credit card.

Scenario B, I put the money in a saving's account, where it earns 5% interest.

Scenario C, $50 towards each, which is my understanding of what you advise.

A year later, an emergency happens, and I have to pay $100 to take care of it. (ok, I'm all for easy math.)

Scenario A, I have no savings, so I can't pay the $100. I put it on my credit card. I now have no savings and $100 cc debt. Net result, $100 debt.

Scenario B, I have $105 in the saving's account. I use $100 to pay the emergency. I have $5 left. However, I also have $118 in cc debt. Net result, $113 debt.

Scenario C, I have $52.50 in the saving's account and $59 in cc debt. I put money in savings toward the emergency, pay the remaining $47.50 with the credit card. This leaves me with no savings and $106.50 on the cc. Net result, $106.50 debt.

So long as the interest you're paying on the cc is greater than the interest you can earn, you are always going to come off better in the long run by paying down the debt as soon as possible. Yes, emergency savings is good, but getting rid of debt is better.

Michelle Singletary: Your math may be right but your timing could be WAY off. What if the emergency happens today, tomorrow, next week. I don't believe you should EVER operate under the premise that you should put all your money toward debt. You have got to pay yourself something to maintain a cushion.

But of course do what you like. Add it up as you like but every financial expert I've ever interviewed advises people to save something out of every paycheck they get even while they are paying down debt.

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Anonymous: Speaking of employers and employees: what would be your advice if an employee who is in a "position of trust" came to you, as his/her supervisor and stated that they were thinking of filing BK?

Thanks,

FFX, VA

Nora Raum: Anon:

I would be sympathetic, not judgmental. There are many, many reasons people end up in bankruptcy and many of those reasons aren't anyone's fault.Why are they telling you? Do they want advice? You should probably refer them to a lawyer who can go over all the options.

Michelle Singletary: Nora is right, be kind and compassionate. And frankly I would NEVER tell my supervisor anything about my personal business UNLESS for some reason he or she needs to know because it would affect my job performance.

Remember information is power. Even the nicest boss might take that information and use it against you -- ie. No, don't give that promotion to so and so he or she is under a lot of financial pressure, etc.

Keep your mouth shut about your financial situation.

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Miami, FL: What does it mean 100% pay filing? Does that mean that the filer must pay the total amont of his/her debt?

Nora Raum: I think you're talking about a 100% plan in a Chapter 13. In that case, you are paying back 100% of the debt. It's like a Chapter 11 for buisness, in that you are restructuring the debt rather than walking away from it. The good part is you get to keep your property.

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Huntsville, Alabama: You are incorrect about not having to pay a mortgage at bankruptcy and being able to quit claim to someone else. The bank owns the house until you pay it off. You cannot quit claim without bank approval, and they will not allow that when you are behind in mortgage payments. You cannot give away a house, that would result in a gift burden to the receiver. You advice stinks.

Nora Raum: Thanks. Maybe we misunderstood each other. You don't have to pay the mortgage if you file a Chapter 7 bankruptcy but you don't get to live in the house rent free. And I'm not a real estate lawyer but I don't think you need the bank's approval to give away your interet in a house. A quit claim deed is just giving away whatever interest you have, subject to whatever debt there is against it.

Michelle Singletary: Further, be nice to my guest. Sure disgree if you think she or I am wrong but be respectful. Didn't your momma tell you that growing up?

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Harrisburg, Pa.: I saw an ad last night for a credit card company claiming there would be no late fees charged whenever a purchase is made during the billing cycle. Isn't this just encouraging people to fall deeper and deeper in debt by encourage expenditures to avoid late fees? Isn't this going to shove more people towards bankruptcy?

Nora Raum: Dear Harrisburg (my home town)

You are absolutely right. I truly beleive the credit card companies suck people into this and then whine when people go under and file bankruptcy to protect the few assets they do have.

Michelle Singletary: Ah, as they say the devil is in the details. Sure you don't have to pay a late fee but if you are late the companies can significantly increase your interest rate. To me that's hardly worth the benefit of paying late and if you do the math could come out costing you way more than a $35 late fee.

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Avis, Washington, DC: Since the new law requires going through credit counseling, which I assume, entails working out a plan to pay off your debts, are there now any benefits to filing bankrupcy?

Nora Raum: Hi Avis:

The new law requires you to have credit counseling but doesn't require you to go through with any plan. But if the place you go to recommends a repayment plan, you have to file a copy of that plan with your bankruptcy petition.

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washingtonpost.com: No Late Fees, But Watch Out For Late Rates (October 13, 2005)

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Washington, DC: Can you briefly explain the new bankruptcy laws. I will file soon but I want to make sure that I still can. I am a single mother of 2 and I make less than 28,000 a year and we are barely making it. My divorce is now final and we are living with family.

Nora Raum: DC:

Oh, boy. You won't believe how much has changed. The main thing is that fewer people will be able to file Chapter 7 bankruptcy - where you can walk away from the debts completely. More people will be forced in the Chapter 13 repayment plan.

You also have to go through credit counseling before and a financial planning class later.

Talk to a bankruptcy lawyer about your situation. Chapter 7 is still unavailable for many people.

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Michelle Singletary: Folks for a list of some of the major changes under the new bankruptcy law go to The American Bankruptcy Insititue's Website www.abiworld.org. Click on the link for "Full Coverage of Bankruptcy Reform" and then scroll down to "Changes to Personal Bankruptcy Law"

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Arlington VA: So the new law, Ch 13 bases repayment on means test, do I pay back $XX per month for a percentage of the amount determined by the ruling Judge or all of the debt?

Nora Raum: Arlington:

The new law makes you pay all your disposable income to the court for as long as five years. Disposable income is what's left over after you pay to keep yourself alive. There are now specific rules on what you're allowed to spend. Anything above that goes to the court. You still have to come up with the plan yourself (with your lawyer) but the court will turn it down if it doesn't comply.

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washingtonpost.com: Nathalie Martin and John Penn from the American Bankruptcy Institute were online on Oct. 11 to answer your questions about bankruptcy law changes. You can read a transcript of that discussion here .

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FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST!!!:

Michelle, I could not wait to write and let you know that I paid it all off this week! ALL of it! I am completely, 100% debt free! I am crying tears of joy over here; I am so overwhelmed with gratitude, excitement and relief. Are you ready for this? It was ninety THOUSAND dollars, honey. That's right: $90,000. Actually, I think it peaked at a little more than that, maybe $92k. And, no, that did not include a mortgage or any secured debt or even a student loan, just a lot of mistakes. And, no, I did not declare bankruptcy. I just worked my little tooshie off and quit buying clothes and crap I didn't need. (These are just the facts of my situation; I truly recognize that bankruptcy may be appropriate in other cases, but it wasn't in mine. I needed to turn things around in this manner -- paying it all back.) The _process_ of chipping away at it will help me not to revisit this nightmare ever again, y'know? I think if I had won the lottery (like I fantasized about) or married the first millionaire who came along, I wouldn't have this SPECTACULAR sense of accomplishment that I have right now. Everyone is paid back: the credit card companies, the IRS, the family members, every single one. And you know what is the best part? -- the adventure is just beginning! I don't even know what it's like to live without that anvil over my head, so Lord only knows what good things will come my way now that there's room!!!

I am crazy about your column, and even though I've never written you before I felt you encouraging me all the way! Thank you from the bottom of my grateful heart!

Michelle Singletary: BLESS YOUR PAID OFF YOUR DEBT HEART. You deserve a big hug (consider it vitual). And I agree -- you're out there in trouble don't see this as your failure but someone else's great success.

What I love about your note is that you understand that by taking the time and PAIN of paying off our debt you will use that as a reminder not to EVER go there again. I do hope my columns helped you on this journey and I am there for you and the hundreds of thousands of people out there struggling with this same issue.

I'm so proud of you, really. You're making me tear up.

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Alexandria, VA: Ms. Raum

I filed Bankruptcy in 2002 due to a hospital visit and foolishly (I admit now) even though I had a job, not having insurance.

However I am a believe that with exception of student loans (I am enrolled in school now) and homes, you do not borrow for anything-if you don't have the money for it, you don't get period.

However, everyone keeps telling me I must rebuild my credit. I say I have my student loans- the one thing that was NOT discharged because it's must money I owe uncle sam. I did have a little secured credit card for a while, but again thought it was silly to go to the grocery store, buy groceries but them a credit card, and then pay the bill -when the money was in my wallet all along.

What do you say?

Thank you.

Nora Raum: Alexandria, I appreciate your idea that you shouldn't buy what you can't afford. Also, it does seem silly to put something on credit if you have the cash in your wallet. But it is important to build up credit in our society and maybe just the student loan won't do it. There's nothing wrong with having one credit card that you pay off faithfully every month. It sounds as if you're the kind of person who can handle it and won't get into any trouble

Michelle Singletary: You're right and wrong. Yes, it's silly to charge what you don't have to but if you want to build up your credit so that you can get future credit (car loan, house) at a reasonable rate you need revolving credit to show you can handle that kind of debt. That AND your student loan payments will greatly help your credit score. You see they judge you on different types of debt and unfortunately good ontime payments of credit card debt is one way to help boost your score.

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Boise, ID: What are the requirements to file for bankruptcy under the new law?

Nora Raum: Oh, boy, Boise:

I can't answer that. It's too complicated. But basically, people won't be allowed to file the Chapter 7 kind if they make the median income for a family their size in their state. But there are lots of variables to figuring out what that income is.

In a Chapter 13 case, more people will have to buy higher amounts and more may have to pay fo r five years, instead of three, which was average under the old law.

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Bethesda, MD: Ms. Singletary and Ms. Raum: Great discussion. Thanks. Ms. Raum, what general advice would you give on finding a good lawyer if you are considering filing for bankruptcy protection?

Nora Raum: Bethesda:

First, make sure it's a lawyer who does a lot of bankruptcy. This isn't brain surgery, but it is a specific area of the law. And the law has just changed quite radically. Youe need someone who keeps up with this stuff. You can check with the bar association where you live for a referral to someone. You can ask friends who had a recent experience with the law. If you don't wnat to say why you need a lawyer, call that person's lawyer yourself and ask for a recommendation. Good lawyers know other good lawyers.

I have a whole chapter in my book on how to pick a lawyer. Probably my best advice is listen to your gut. You need someone you're comfortable with and confident in.

Good luck.

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Fairfax, Va.: 1. how can I quickly rebuild my credibility after chapter 7?

2. what credit am I eligible for? car? home? real estate property investment?

3. how has this worked for others (caucasians) in the past, and how can I make it work for me in re-building my credit now?

Nora Raum: Fairfax:

Well, I don't have separate advice for caucasians! But rebuilding your credit is a matter of shopping around and being careful. There are lots of books out there on rebuilkding credit after bankruptcy. (Mine has three chapters on the subject.) Time and good sense are your best friends

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Michelle Singletary: Wow, did that hour go by fast or what? I'm so sorry if we didn't get to your question. I've asked Nora to answer some more which I'll put in my print column (soon). Thanks for joining me today. See you in two weeks.

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