National Security and Intelligence

Washington Post intelligence reporter Dana Priest was online Thursday, Nov. 10, at noon ET to discuss the latest developments in national security and intelligence.

CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons. (Washington Post, Nov. 2, 2005)

Dana Priest covers intelligence and wrote " The Mission: Waging War and Keeping Peace With America's Military " (W.W. Norton). The book chronicles the increasing frequency with which the military is called upon to solve political and economic problems.

The transcript follows.

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Dana Priest: Hi everyone. I'm here a little early. Let's begin.

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Houston, Tex.: How can governments continue to pump monies into so called security plans that show less than desirable results?

Israel can not be considered attack free. How many years and money have they spent on "security"?

Our own war on drugs has produced nothing that we can claim as proof positive that money will eliminate or control the problem.

Now we are planning on spending more money on securing our borders. Borders that have never been secure against illegal crossings? Doesn't this all seem pointless and wasteful?

Dana Priest: The core problem you've identified is one of oversight and accountability. Because most of intelligence is classified and discussed only behind-closed-door in Congress, it lacks the kind of public pressure for results that other, equally important programs do, like defense spending. Seems to me that Congressional oversight is a weak link and also some kind of determination on Congress's part to share more with the public without giving away vital secrets.

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New York, N.Y.: Dana,

The group "Human Rights First" issued a report on secret detentions outside the United States in June, 2004. You yourself wrote an article in December, 2004 about the CIA plane ferrying hooded prisoners to locations around the world. Why, in your opinion, has the recent news that the CIA operates secret detention facilities overseas raised such a public outcry when these earlier reports were virtually ignored? Is it simply that some of these facilities are now reportedly located in "eastern European democracies"?

Dana Priest: I don't think the other stories were ignored. But, yes, naming a region and the fact that the Eastern European countries are democracies perhaps made a program that the government has never acknowledged, seem more real. The plane story really was an illustration of the process of renditions, which has become nearly a household word--only because of the various press reports on it.

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New York, N.Y.: Hi, Dana,

From what I can tell, your writing is respected by military insiders. Your reputation as a serious and well-sourced journalist should help you if an investigation (by DOJ or Congress) relating to your secret prison article gets going. Can you tell us whether you have been getting legal advice? (without disclosing the content, of course!) Best of luck,

A reader

Dana Priest: Thank you. This is probably going to be a somewhat unsatisfying chat because I can not comment on the investigation. I can say, to answer you, that The Post has a great legal office and typically employs outside counsel as well on specific matters. Every year a number of legal questions, challenges, whatever, come up and these folks are pros at addressing the issues and walking reporters involved through the process.

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Washington, D.C.: First, thanks for the great reporting. Letting the public know of secret prisons is a service to the country in my opinion.

Has the CIA always had some latitude to interrogate individuals in secret locations abroad, using interrogation techniques that could be considered torture? I'm trying to understand whether the detention and interrogations are really new policies or an expansion of activities that were allowed on a smaller scale in previous administrations.

Dana Priest: It is my understanding that the CIA gave up interrogations in the 1980s but had conducted them before that during the Cold War and the counterinsurgencies in Central America, South Africa, and against terrorists groups in the Middle East. I was not able to find any example where the CIA had actually set up a secret penal system, though, that was to be as enduring as the current "black site" system is. I know for certain, that for the junior and senior CIA officers working at the agency on Sept. 11, 2001, this was an entirely new world.

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Dale City, Va.: Dana,

Congratulations on a great article. I cannot imagine how you were able to put together such a complete story in this secretive environment. Has anyone in the administration even tried to deny that the story is accurate? Most of what I have read from officials seems to be anger about secret info getting out, but nothing, not even embarrassment, about us having these gulags.

Dana Priest: You are right. No U.S. government official has denied that the story is accurate. But they have not confirmed it either. They are all just trying to dance around the issue, which is not really surprising. Covert programs are designated "covert" to give officials deniability.

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Washington, D.C.: Speaking of Congressional oversight, care to comment on the NY Times Editorial this morning regarding the apparent interest of Congressional Leadership in investigating the leak of 'Black' Prisons in Eastern Europe as opposed to investigating the conduct in those prisons?

Dana Priest: Well, since I can't comment on the investigation, I'll just say that I think the op-ed is worth reading. Let's see if we can get it posted here:

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Washington, D.C.: I understand that you can't discuss the investigation. Can you say if you've seen any apparent reassessment of the policy or procedures surrounding these prisons after your article or does it appear that things will continue, business as usual?

Dana Priest: What I've noticed is a lot more talk about alternatives, "what if's" kind of thing. But nothing official.

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washingtonpost.com: Blaming the Messenger , ( New York Times, Nov. 10, 2005 )

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Oklahoma City, Okla.: Sorry, you must count me among the many who question the Post's decision to print your expose. It is not unreasonable to hold top terrorists in secret locations, or to seek to detect future threats from information gleaned from them. Your story has clearly harmed that effort. As one who has been through a terrorist attack that claimed the lives of people I knew and seriously injured my wife, I resent what is clearly a story that could well damage our national security. Why is it OK for you and The Post to reveal covert actions and a grand jury subject for Scooter Libby to do the same?

Dana Priest: You are not alone in that view. The Washington Post does not print stories that would clearly harm national security. And in this story, we agreed not to name the countries involved at the request of senior government officials for that reason. On the other hand, The Post--and speaking for myself as a reporter--do not take the view that just because the government has made something secret, or even covert, that it is automatically off-limits for reporting. You have made your decision about whether you think it is reasonable or unreasonable to have black sites, but others would disagree. I see my role only to describe how the USG is fighting the war on terror. This is a part of that effort.

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Washington, D.C.: I saw a follow-up that said the EU was investigating the use of its member country prisons for CIA interrogations. Are you aware of any additional reporting on the subject that appears in English language European media and that's accessible through the Internet?

Dana Priest: Most major Eastern European media outlets have been doing follow up stories. Many are available in English on the web.

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washingtonpost.com: Policies on Terrorism Suspects Come Under Fire , ( Washington Post, Nov. 3, 2005 )

Cheney Fights for Detainee Policy , ( Washington Post, Nov. 7, 2005 )

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Oberlin, Ohio: Congratulations and thanks to Ms. Priest for this very important story. It seems to me that these methods undermine international law -- to which the U.S. has heretofore generally been supportive -- and threaten the long-term welfare of our own military and intelligence personnel.

Is there a detectable debate within the CIA over the wisdom of maintaining the network of facilities and the use of interrogation methods that could increase the likelihood of extreme mistreatment of captured U.S. (and allied) military personnel, intelligence operatives or their contacts?

Thanks again.

Dana Priest: Thank you. The black sites are contrary to international law, that is true. And they would be considered illegal in the democracy countries where they exist for the same reason they would be considered illegal here which is that these countries grant detainees certain, basic protects. I would refer you to the comments of Sen. McCain (tortured by North Vietnamese) and Sen. Lindsey Graham (former military JAG) who agree that these tactics could do as you say in the second part of the question.

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Minneapolis, Minn.: I saw you on a PBS show recently that depicted a terrorist incident scenario at the national level. Based on the perceived need for information in that scenario, you essentially made the case for the Vice President's perspective on torture (i.e., allowing an exception for the CIA). It was a rather compelling context and not at all unrealistic. What do we do if we don't want to legalize this kind of treatment for prisoners? Outlaw it and then do it anyway if/when the need arises?

Dana Priest: Basically yes. But I wasn't really expressing a personal opinion as I was trying to express the opinion that the former government officials on the program would not address. The scenario was very, very specific. A so-called "ticking time bomb" scenario in which you had just caught a guy who admitted he had planted several bombs that were about to go off, and would not be cooperative with non-coercive interrogation tactics. The other participants, many of whom I know well, were not really addressing that and were holding to their agencies position that torture cannot be used. My point was that, in a true ticking-time bomb scenario, the government would probably (and "should probably" is a point worth debating and considering) allow extreme measures as a last resort.

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Knoxville, Tenn.: Arab states have not cracked down as harshly on militancy as other countries like Pakistan or Indonesia have done. Why is that? Most of these terrorists come from the Arab nations and they have committed many bomb blasts now in Arab cities yet we don't see any major arrests or raids or anything.

Dana Priest: I don't actually agree because the statement is too general. Most Muslim countries that have indigenous extremist groups are cracking down to some extent, but are wearying of shaking their base of support. Saudi Arabia is a case in point, so is Yemen, Jordan, UAE, Kuwait, less so Egypt. I would say that Indonesia and Pakistan are in the exact same position. They've cracked down some, but they are not willing to take it too far, in part because Islamic extremists are popular politically and I don't think the governments want to embolden them anymore.

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Buffalo, N.Y.: Have you or any member of the media been able to get Bush 41's view on the conflict between this White House and the CIA?

Dana Priest: I haven't and I doubt he would give it on-the-record.

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Columbus, Ohio: What's the deal with U.S. intelligence's apparent failure to find key terror suspects, quell Iraqi insurgent terror attacks, etc.? Why does American intelligence appear so ineffective to all of us? Help me out here.

Dana Priest: Well, I'll try. It's very hard and the CIA doesn't yet have very good sources, sources that are close to the key targets. On Iraq, though, I think the problem is so overwhelming that even finding more of a given terrorist network will not end the insurgency, which now also includes a lot of Iraqis who are in no way terrorists are linked to terrorists organization.

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Cape Cod, Mass.: I know your editor will only want to post questions which "praise" you, so I will pose this a little less pejoratively. If you were say, a historian studying the ultimate demise of the United States as we know it today, would you consider the author of the article in question to be a domestic enemy of the U.S. Constitution?

Dana Priest: Well, thank you for your restraint. There's no editor here with me. I decide which questions to answer. To yours comes an equally restrained, "no."

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Ocala, Fla.: You stated that the black sites are contrary to international law. Who enforces international law? Syria and the other members of the U.N. Human Rights Watch Groups?

Dana Priest: That's a very valid point. There's little enforcement, but the United States generally takes the position that it is a strong member of the international community and that it abides by its treaty obligations.

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Ticking Time Bombs: Actually, it seems to me that in a true "ticking time bomb" situation, it might be just as well to force the CIA or military officers involved to make a decision to violate the law if they thought there was absolutely no alternative. At least then they would have to think long and hard about whether they could live with themselves and the potential consequences.

I don't know, of course, but I suspect that this is how things have been handled in previous wars.

Dana Priest: Seems worth debating. I've noticed, however, a lack of willingness on both sides to even enter into a civil conversation on such matters.

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The Ticking Timer Bomb: The trouble with the "ticking time bomb" exception is that as a practical matter it doesn't happen. Any detainee could potentially have a series of bombs or attacks about to go off but how often do you have someone and know that something is about to happen ? In fact, is there a known instance of this in the history of U.S. intelligence ?

So, all the exception does is allow you to use extreme measures on everyone you choose to since all of them COULD have something ticking.

Dana Priest: I agree. However, likely for the folks on the program, we had a very clear cut case.

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Austin, Tex.: Dana,

Thank you so much for taking the time to address our questions. Your article on detainee prisons was fantastic.

For your previous questioner who doesn't understand the difference between this leak and the Scooter leak let me add my perspective.

Scooter leaked classified information about a sanctioned and well know government agency and action. (We have spies.) The people know this and have sanctioned it.

You published information about an action of our government that has not been discussed, published or sanctioned by the American people. This is our government and we have a constitutional right to know what it is doing. If we need to use extraordinary means to get information out of these people then we should say so, debate and decide if that is the America we want to become. Then sanction those actions, and do it in the open.

Thank you for keeping us informed!

Dana Priest: passing this on...

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New York, N.Y.: Is part of the problem with the CIA simply the fact that Muslim extremist groups are much harder to infiltrate that say Communist groups?

Dana Priest: apparently so. and their motives are hardly to turn. During the Cold War there were always Soviets and others who didn't really like Communism, or wanted their kids to go to US colleges, or could be bribe with money. Much less so when it comes to Al Qaeda.

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Washington, D.C.: In support of debating the efficacy of black sites, I would point out that many secrets are kept only from the general public. Foreign government who know what our intel services are doing but do not speak of it themselves still form opinions and policies about whether they follow America's lead and warn of impending terror attacks they hear about. A big country like America has to take the high road in order to keep everyone on the team.

Dana Priest: passing this on

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New York, N.Y.: Gee, you kept the names of the Eastern European countries out of the article. Wow - you just narrowed it down to, what, four or five countries? That's going to be a tough one for investigators to figure out. Congratulations on doing such a great job protecting our national security.

Sincerely,

Disgusted

Dana Priest: and this, although I think the count is off.

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Dana Priest: I have to head out now. Thanks for all the nice messages, which I didn't post. And for the thought-provoking differences of opinion. See you next week. Best, Dana

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