Riots in Paris Spark International Reaction

What does the rest of the world think of the French riots? washingtonpost.com Staff Writer and World Opinion Roundup blogger Jefferson Morley was online Wednesday, Nov. 9, at 2 p.m. ET to talk about international media reaction.

The transcript follows.

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Jefferson Morley: Welcome all. Bienvenue. Bienvenido. Pase adelante and Wilkommen. In other words, let's talk.

I'll start answering questions shortly.

Comments and questions that include links to articles in the international online media will receive preferential treatment.

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Jeff

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washingtonpost.com: Europe Wonders 'Could It Happen Here?'

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Fairfax, Va.: I would like to know with the straightest possible answer: Why are they rioting?

Jefferson Morley: I'll try to answer as straightforwardly as possible.

The riots began after two teenage boys were electrocuted in the suburbs of Paris. They were apparently trying to avoid a police checkpoint set up to enforce a curfew. They snuck through an electrical power substation and came into contact with a high voltage power line.

The riots spread because of widespread anger and alienation among the young people in the suburbs of Paris. This anger is partly a product of constant police presence, some same harassment, designed to stamp out drug trafficking and petty crime. It is also, by most accounts, a product of widespread unemployment and general lack of life prospects in these suburbs.

Adding fuel to the fire were the widely publicized comments of Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy who, after the first few days of rioting, promised residents of one suburb that he would get rid of the "scum" who were rioting.

The causes of widespread rioting are complex but I think this summary suggests the main reasons why.

I welcome thoughts from others who see other factors at work.

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Vinzel, Switzerland: What would it be the difference to you, between the riots that happened in France and the rioting that occurred in D.C. in '91?

Jefferson Morley: The difference is scale. The DC riot of 1991 started in a neighborhood called Mt. Pleasant which is where I live. It spread up and down the main street of the neighborhood and into an adjoining neighborhood called Adams Morgan. Windows were broken, there was looting and some violence over the course of a couple of days. That was it.

The French rioting, by comparison, is vast, involving the burning of thousands of cars and the trashing of public buildings. D.C. did not experience anything like that.

The French experience is more comparable to the riots that swept DC after the assassination of Martin Luther King in 1968.

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Grenoble - France: Can you please tell me the difference between the riots in Los Angeles years ago (54 people killed) and those in Paris (2). And where are the poverty ghettos located in the US, and why they do not explode no more today. Thanks

Jefferson Morley: I think the LA riots are a better comparison with the French riots. Like the French violence, the LA riot was rooted in a widespread sense of grievance against law enforcement, fed by unemployment and alienation.

A key difference, as you note, is the lethality and rage. French newspapers were shocked when the rioting claimed its first victim. The LA riot was vastly more deadly, mainly because of the widespread availability of guns in the U.S.

Rage too is a key difference. In LA, black rioters often turned their rage on white passersby. The French rioters, by contrast, have directed their violence at property, not people for the most part.

Most of America's major cities have poverty-stricken neighborhoods. They don't explode because most of the people who live in them are law-abiding people who have an interest in leading peaceful lives.

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Bethesda, Md.: I'm wondering - do newspapers in other countries do this type of navel gazing - -i.e., of reviewing, printing, and commenting upon, what the press in other parts of the world is saying about the home country? Is there a feature in Le Monde that will tell its readers about today's Anne Applebaum (excellent) column, or about what the Dallas Morning News thinks of the riots in France? Everyone argues that Americans only care about themselves(as an immigrant, I disagree with this sentiment), but do the foreign papers and other sources you cover have a person who does what you do?

Jefferson Morley: Yes. Many major European news outlets have press reviews which summarize what newspapers are saying, among them the BBC and Deutsche Welle (German public broadcasting). Several papers in the Middle East also do this.

I wouldn't call it "navel gazing." I would call it keeping up with the world.

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Washington, D.C.: Some on the right have been contending for years that Muslim culture is not compatible with that of Europe. The riots seem to lend support to this view. Will these events lead to a sharp reduction in the number of immigrants Europe allows in?

Jefferson Morley: Well, the riots (and the fear of riots in the rest of Europe that I report on in the blog today) are a sign that immigrants, many of whom are Muslim, are not well-integrated into the mainstream of European life. How much of that is due to the Islamic beliefs of the rioters is open to question. To me, these riots seem much more rooted in the isolation, poor education and unemployment than in the religious beliefs of the people rioting.

I think the riots will increase demands for curbing immigration throughout Europe. Whether governments have enough control over their borders to affect a "sharp reduction" is doubtful.

I think the riots will also prompt European governments to look for better ways to integrate their immigrants.

As in this country, I think the emerging issue is immigration reform vs. border control.

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Windsor Mill, Md.: Fox News has bannered this story as "Muslim Riots". Has that been the trend with all of Murdoch's publications?

Jefferson Morley: I've checked two of Murdoch's flagship publications: The Australian, a national daily Down Under, and The Sun, a popular British tabloid. Neither seems to be billing these riots as "Muslim riots."

Murdoch is a smart enough businessman not to impose a party line on his conservative media empire.

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Washington, D.C.: One thing that the media seems to ignore about the situation in France is this: the rioters are mostly "guest workers" and the children of "guest workers." As that title suggests, there was never any intention in France that these people, most of whom are from North Africa, would stay. Thus, the lack of "integration" was intentional -- they were supposed to live their own lives, in their own cultures, and stay temporarily in France. Then, when they had made some money, they could go back to Algeria, Morocco, or wherever.

The idea that France must now "integrate" these immigrants into its culture would constitute a complete shift in the understanding of the role of "guest workers" in French society. This begs the question: Why not simply encourage them to return to their homelands. Since unemployment is high, "guest workers" clearly aren't needed anyway.

Jefferson Morley: You make a good point about "guest workers." This is also true of Turkish immigrants in Germany.

If the governments wanted them to go home, how would they encourage them. Many, if not most, of the rioters in France are native-born children of immigrants. Besides having the social benefits of living in a prosperous European country, they may not even know the language in the native country of their parents. Getting such people to leave France would not be easy.

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Paris, France: it is clear that the tensions that released these violent incidents has existed for a long time and the solution is not simple. My question is what is the best course of action now? in a zero tolerance climate it is difficult to address legitimate inequities without appearing to reward the violent acts for attention. Signed,An American living in Paris in the 7th who formerly lived in Santa Monica during the Rodney king riots

Jefferson Morley: Restoring order is a prerequisite. Attention to addressing inequities can follow. This is the French governments approach. "Firmness and justice."

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Washington, D.C.: I appreciated Mr Hoagland's editorial piece today, and thought it was right on. I don't think the Muslim community here in the US feels the same sense of alienation and shame that it does in Europe. One big reason for this which seems obvious to me but something I don't see discussed too much is space. We have it and Europe does not. We can literally accommodate the numbers without feeling too much of an impact, especially from a group like Arab and other Muslim immigrants. Add to that a key difference between US Muslim immigrants and European Muslim immigrants being their level of education - here it is way higher -and the fact that so many Arab immigrants are Christian and you have the population that is already here much more amenable to acceptance. I think the US does share similarities with what is going on in France with other, non-Arab immigrant groups such as those from Latin America. But again, the likelihood that these groups will assimilate eventually is much much greater than it is in Europe. Again the reason: space.

Jefferson Morley: You make a good point. The vastness of America literally makes room for opportunity as anybody who had driven across the Midwest knows. Hundreds, if not thousands, of roadside motels are run by Indians. There isn't the same kind of opportunity in densely populated Europe.

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Ames, Iowa: Mr. Morley,

what do you think is the wider implication for the angst that Europeans are now feeling in terms of trans-Atlantic relations? Is it possible that the U.S. and Europe will now recognize some of our similarities instead of our differences?

Jefferson Morley: I don't mean to sound cynical but I doubt it.

There is no small amount of "schadenfraude" (German for the feeling of pleasure induced by somebody else's misery) in America today. The French, as Anne Applebaum, did not hesitate to criticize the shortcomings of the American social order exposed by Hurricane Katrina. Americans will not hesitate to return the favor.

That said, you can't read the French press and not get the feeling of serious rethinking. I think the French have to look at the American model of social integration, which involves explicit recognition of racial and ethnic differences, as well as compensatory programs like affirmative action. Until now, such methods have been taboo for the French.

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Arlington, Va.: Don't you think this sort of stuff is part of an inevitable cycle of immigration, disenfranchisement, and persecution? It's happened countless times throughout Europe. Kind of like the "Germany is for the Germans" mentality that took place prior to WWII.

Thank you.

Jefferson Morley: I think this is different. The "Germany is for the Germans" mentality of the 1930s involved the majority turning viciously on the minorities (Jews and Gypsies) in their midst. The fact most European countries have never had such large immigrant Muslim populations.

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Neuilly-sur-Seine France: Your headline banner is totally misleading in that there have been no "riots" in Paris. As a former D.C. area resident I have some knowledge of what happened in D.C. and LA. This is somewhat different. Paris, the city, is calm. The riots are in areas outside Paris (and outside other major urban areas). The reverse of the situation in the States.

Perhaps more importantly, the French have tried to avoid escalation through a fairly disciplined approach -- no wild west shoot outs.

One further point, this is certainly not a Muslim insurrection, per Fox News' O'Reilly.

The riots, do seem to represent a tipping point for the French in having to move away from their view about all French being equal more towards a US view that fosters assimilation. The very view that Sarkozy has been pushing and yet he, ironically, seems the very likely scapegoat of the riots.

Jefferson Morley: Your reminder that our home page editors should not mistake the suburbs of Paris for Paris itself is timely, though the fact that car burnings have spread into the city itself is surely newsworthy.

I agree with you on the Fox News propagandizing. The "Muslim insurrection" rhetoric is about as convincing as the claim that the Rodney King riot was "the LA uprising."

And I agree with you that the French are going to rethink their beloved social model. It has a lot going for it--as demonstrated by French self-satisfaction--but it clearly isn't working for a lot of young non-Europeans.

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Laurel, Md.: Cultures in which the standard of living and status of women are low, like the Middle East and Latin America, have high birthrates. Places where they're high, like Western Europe and the United States have low birthrates, so they have to import people from the former.

In the current politically-correct climate of journalism, have any major publications expressed the view that the rioters "came here for the culture of opportunity, but are finding that exploiting those opportunities are not simply a right that comes from living there."

Jefferson Morley: Talk about politically correct. You seem to have a conclusion already formed and are wondering if journalists will adhere to it. Probably not.

The facts are a little more complicated than that. The youth who riot don't see that they have any opportunity--and statistically they are correct.

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Washington, D.C.: Do you sense a number of non-French are gloating a bit at France's misery? France, with a reputation for telling the rest of the world how to live, is suddenly being given advice from all over on how to deal with internal French problems. Do you think this is bugging the French?

Jefferson Morley: Yes, people are gloating and yes the French don't want to hear it. But the French are nothing if not analytical. Across the board, they know they have a problem that they collectively have not faced up to. The social ideal of solidarity ("fraternite") is much stronger in French political culture than in Anglo-Saxon political culture. So any solutions to the current crisis are likely to invoke this ideal.

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Washington, D.C.: Why are they rioting? I think it's easy to answer that -- look at who "they" are. They are Muslim immigrants. Their culture does not fit in with French culture. This situation has persisted for years, and now they are both angry about it, and emboldened by their sheer size (6 million). In other words, they are rioting because, finally, they can.

Jefferson Morley: Well, that's a fine theory. But it ignores the causal chain of events: the electrocution of the two boys and Sarkozy's comments about "scum." It was those events, not sheer size, that set off the violence.

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Ames, Iowa: In an article from The Economist (A wounded nation resorts to extreme measures) I read two suggestions. One, that the French government hasn't done enough to stop the riots but two, that the steps the government has taken (curfews, more police) are draconian. Given that the roots of the violence are deep and complex, aren't curfews and policemen the best the government can do right now? Is the French government being put in an impossible situation?

Jefferson Morley: The French government is a very difficult situation. But government depends on maintaining order and a monopoly on violence. The French have to establish both before they can accomplish anything.

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Chicago, Ill.: I've been looking at a number of French news sites from across the political spectrum. It seems to me that the more conservative are taking a more politically-oriented approach to the coverage (Le Monde, for example, seems usually to refer to reassurances and proposals from on high), while leftist papers like Liberation place a good deal of focus on what's actually going on (see their blog with quotes and photos from Aulnay-sous-bois at "Nous, on a des tuyaux qui sortent du sol" ).

What do you make of this distinction in emphasis?

Jefferson Morley: I think you make a good point.

The French left has traditionally made a bigger issue out of unemployment and alienation. The center-left, embodied by Le Monde, is more of an elite publication which looks for government officials to solve problems. The center-right publications, like Le Figaro, are also elite. They are emphasizing reestablishing order.

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Arlington, Va.: I have read a number of commentators who have talked about the institutional racism in France and how that has contributed to the rage of the rioters. Why is this so shocking to the French? or is it?

Jefferson Morley: Its shocking to some French because of the so-called "Republican values." The French, while loathed by American neoconservatives, have actually organized their social policies around the sort of "colorblind" principles that American conservatives call for. For example, in California, conservatives want to prevent the government from collecting information about race. They are, whether they know it or not, emulating the French who have never counted their citizenry by race or ethnicity. In the French scheme, all that matters is that you are a French citizen.

The riots show that this is clearly not working for a substantial number of people. Hence the shock.

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Vinzel, Switzerland: Do you think that the U.S. media interest in the Paris riots is due to the so called republican driven strained relationship with France?

Jefferson Morley: No.

Of course, the strain of American thinking that resents French political values is a factor in the coverage, but it is by no means the only or even the most important one. People who love France, French culture, French food, French manners, French people (like me!) are equally interested in this story.

Riots sweeping 400 towns in Britain, Germany, Russia or Mexico would be equally big stories in the U.S. media.

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Washington, D.C.: Jefferson, I think many Americans are misled by the way this conflict is portrayed in the U.S media, and think that it is religious/Muslim in nature. On the contrary, the conflict has nothing to do with religion. It is ethno-economic in nature.

I want to draw your attention that the French youths themselves laugh at the proposition that this is "a religious conflict", and also there are many blacks from Senegal and the Ivory Coast who aren't necessarily Muslims.

Jefferson Morley: I think you're almost completely right. The only thing I would say that is that Muslim culture is part of the alienation.

Witness the controversy in France over the wearing of headscarves. The ban on headscarves enjoyed general support in France because the French knew that no small number of girls did not wear headscarves voluntarily but because they were forced by tyrannical old brothers and fathers invoking Islamic beliefs.

In America a headscarf band would be regarded as a violation of freedom of religion and free expression. In France, it was regarded as a safeguard of "liberte."

Of course, these riots are not about headscarves. But I think Islamic fundamentalism has to be a factor in social alienation.

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Atlanta, Ga.: I hope you answer this question. I apologize if my wording is awkward or offensive, I don't mean to be.

I've seen reactions from non-minorities saying in essence "See this is another way France has failed. We, the U.S. are so much better."

Minorities, of which I admit I am one, have been more understanding. Specifically on ideas like - the lack of inclusion in society. While many pockets of U.S. society are open, not all are.-discrimination based on names and appearance among other things-a lack of minority presence in higher levels of government. (I know all about Condi, Colin, Gonzales, but it's not the same as being President. At least not to me.)

Have you noticed this difference of opinion?

Jefferson Morley: I think you're right.

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Arlington, Va.: Do you have a sense if the violence will ever be directed at the white, non-immigrant population?

Reason I ask - my daughter recently moved to Dreux near Paris (famous for its National Front win in 1983), and long before these riots, she had been subject to many verbal attacks (because she is white, apparently) and harassments, including having stones thrown at her by small boys yelling invectives.

So, when do those two mind sets merge, and the anger is taken out on the non-immigrant population?

Jefferson Morley: I think the fact that the violence has largely NOT been directed at people is striking. If it does happen, it will be an indication that the social problem is even more severe than is now recognized.

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Washington, D.C.: Is it safe to be in Paris and the other places the riots are now spreading, i.e. Brussels?

Jefferson Morley: Yes. Paris is safe and so are other European capitals. It is the poor neighborhoods where cars and public buildings seem to be at risk.

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Arlington, Va.: What is the prevailing position of the French press - that these are hooligans and should be punished; or that these riots speak to a deeper, more troubling social issue that needs addressing?

Jefferson Morley: If there is a common denominator in the French press, it is that the French social model has, if not failed, then suffered a serious wound. Why is much debated.

On the right, there is a call for "staying the course," with so-called zero tolerance law enforcement strategy implemented by the conservative government in recent years. Polls show that this is generally popular approach.

On the left, there is a feeling that the violence shows that such strategies are, in themselves, insufficient to integrate immigrants into the mainstream of society. The left wants the government to be less self-satisfied and work hard at acknowledging and incorporating the poor.

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Wheaton, Md.: Don't you find it interesting that many media sources in the U.S. have tried to link or mention that the rioters in France are Muslim or of Islamic decent? I don't believe that Islam has anything to do with the rioting. There are many West African habitants living in these poverty stricken suburbs that are not Muslim. Merci

Jefferson Morley: Good point

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Maryland: I feel that the focus on the Muslim angle on all of this is through the American eye, where we are obsessed with Muslim extremist terrorism. I would guess that most of these young rioters are not fundamentalists (yet.) It is more an issue of their exclusion from French culture - which is racial or ethnic, more than religious.

Jefferson Morley: Yes.

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Buffalo, N.Y.: You note that these riots have made property, not people the target. With one dead already, how long before people become targets? Is that what it is going to take before the military gets involved?

Jefferson Morley: I could be wrong but I don't think the it is inevitable that people will become targets.

Europe does not have a culture of violence in the same way American does. Remember, in the LA riots some 54 people were killed in the time that one person was killed in France. There is no culture of guns in France and no legacy of legal discrimination and slavery.

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Washington, D.C.: When will the U.S. press will treat France with respect? I just can't believe the lies I hear on Fox ( they sais 50000 cars burn down) or CNN ( why should we care about France .. they will surrender anyway..) .. why so much hate against France? We are in Afghanistan helping the U.S. but we never hear about that...I am Franco -American but sometimes disgusted by the U.S. press.

Jefferson Morley: Not for a long time.

There is hatred of France because the two societies, while very similar, have different values.

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Ottawa, Canada: In your article you discussed media reaction in Europe. Has there been much discussion of events in France in North African/Arab media?

Jefferson Morley: Not yet. But I'm a little behind in my reading. Keep checking my blog. I will report on wider world reaction soon.

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Washington D.C.: Hi Jeff, your column is great. Everyone agrees, it seems, that the riots have a lot to do with failure to integrate the immigrant community into both the economy and the national identity. The socialist economy is surely to blame for high unemployment, but have any European commentators or politicians discussed the shared premises that underpin both the socialist economy and perceived social exclusion? (insulating business and the state from competing forces/ideas, willfully ignoring and purposely excluding that which is not already part of the French identity, etc.)

Jefferson Morley: Thanks.

I haven't seen this line of commentary perhaps, perhaps because it mingles a couple of ideas that come from different places on the political spectrum.

The European right has always sought to lessen the state role in the economy while maintaining a sense of national insulation/superiority. The left, which favors an activist state, has traditionally been the force critical of national/ethnic identities and welcoming of non-Europeans.

But I think that the riots are the sort of the event that will prompt people to rethink their beliefs across the board.

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Baltimore, Md.: The point made that the "guest workers", or rather their children, are principally rioting, brings to mind President Bush's proposal to offer a similar plan, with the Mexican citizens, here in the U.S. Is this occurrence a warning to the U.S. in some way?

Jefferson Morley: I don't see it as a warning but I do think it will be interesting to see how the French riots reverberate in America's immigration debate.

Right now, this debate increasingly pits advocates of "immigration reform" against advocates of "border control." I think both sides will invoke the French riots to support their views.

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Jefferson Morley: Well, we have gone way over time and answered virtually all the questions.

Thanks for your time. It was an excellent and interesting discussion.

If you like the conversation here, then feel free to join in the discussion that goes on every day at

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/worldopinionroundup/

A bientot

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