Reading, Writing and Raising Kids

You may not have noticed, but schools aren't just schools anymore. These days, they're much more -- they feed our kids and babysit them before and after school, they teach them about sex and how to drive, they provide drug and alcohol counseling and ethics training, they tackle smoking and AIDS and gangs and suicide and teenage pregnancies -- and more. Our public schoolshave become hybrid institutions that are raising our children, in the manner of the Israeli kibbutz, as much as they are educating them, says former Post reporter Noel Epstein in his Sunday Outlook article, Of Reading, Writing -- and Raising Kids .But is this a good development, or bad? Do families want the schools acting in loco parent is in so many ways? What happens to academics when they do?

Epstein, a former education writer for The Post and editor of "Who's in Charge Here?: The Tangled Web of School Governance and Policy," was online Noon on Monday, Nov. 28 , to discuss the evolving role of the schools in the U.S.

____________________

Etlan, Va.: Great topic that I have not seen raised so comprehensively before. One of the ways this gets started is the refrain "Well, this is their (students) only chance" for sex ed, breakfast, current events via Channel One, or even Bible studies in the little trailer outside the school. In other words, if a few don't get say, sex ed at home, then everyone must get it, the prevailing view goes. So my question is, is there any attempt to quantify the number of kids that simply can't get these "services" at home. Seems like there is no attempt to ascertain that. If a few would "benefit" then it is essentially mandatory to all.

Noel Epstein: I'm not sure that I know how government might find out whether, or how much, parents are instructing their children about sex, drugs, AIDS, alcohol abuse, gun control or other concerns. I can't imagine that parents would volunteer such information.

Many factors that drive the enlarged family role of schools, however, are easily obtained. The number of households in which both parents work, for example, certainly helps drive the demand for before-school and after-school programs. The last report I've seen showed that among married couples with children who are 6 to 17 years old, both parents worked in nearly 70 percent of families. Similarly, nearly 80 percent of single mothers with school-age children hold jobs. So those programs clearly serve the overwhelmingly majority of parents with children in school.

_______________________

Redmond, Ore.: Epstein nails it. My question/comment would be that in that teachers are now asked to do so much "other than academic" education how can they square those responsibilities with the arbitrary and time-consuming responsibilities of the NCLB mandates?

Noel Epstein: They cannot be squared. Historically, there is always a struggle among multiple demands made of the public schools, both within curriculum areas and between academic and non-academic issues. No Child Left Behind obviously is a significant effort to focus school resources far more on student achievement. But it does not in any way reduce non-academic demands on the schools. That's why my article stressed that teachers need to be freed to teach while others minister to the health, social, emotional and other needs of students.

_______________________

Ann Arbor, Mich.: Epstein's statistics about the relatively low priority parents place on academic success reveals a lot about the psychology behind the persistent failure of so many students, especially along lines of class and race. At the same time, public education has the dubious honor of being one of our society's best hopes for combating the reproduction of social inequalities. Interpreting statistics in tricky business -- is it really wise or accurate to sidestep the importance of academic success?

Noel Epstein: Because the public has long worried more about student behavior -- gangs, drugs, teen pregnancies, student violence etc. -- doesn't mean that they are unconcerned about how well their children do academically. Would you worry more about your children being shot than about whether they get an "A" in math, science or history? Parents (sensibly, it seems to me) fret first and foremost about their children's well-being at school, and they need to be reassured on that point. I happen to think that the way to do that is to have non-educators take care of non-academic needs.

_______________________

Belvidere, N.J.: What do you think about the, "No child left Behind" policy? Do you think this will work? I have adult children who work in the school system..they are so against the program... they say the program lacks the funding to help the kids? Besides being time consuming... no one benefits, the teachers are spending too much time on unnecessary testing?

Noel Epstein: The value of No Child Left Behind, which was not the subject of my article, is far too complex a question for this kind of chat. Will some children benefit from NCLB? Probably. Is it unnecessary for others? Certainly. Does it place too many testing demands on state local school systems? Possibly.

My own view, to oversimplify the issue further, is that student achievement problems are concentrated chiefly in schools with disadvantaged children, while NCLB take more of a shotgun approach at all student.

What I can say for certain, moreover, is that it does nothing to help with all the family-like demands on the schools.

_______________________

Bowie, Md.: Allegedly, home-schooling has grown tremendously due to reduced academic achievement in public schools. Despite what the parents may claim, is there any evidence that most home-schooling parents are academically-motivated, as opposed to not wanting to their children to learn that humans descended from other primates, condoms help prevent the spread of STDs and the Founding Fathers were patriarichical racists?

Noel Epstein: You are certainly correct that home school is increased significantly in the United States. It is, so far as I am aware, the chief alternative now to public schools. I cannot say, however, how much parents are motivated by academic concerns or by ethnic, religious or other value questions.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: Theory: The decline in union membership in the United States (the only thing that used to protect us from robber-baron style rapacious capitalism) has effected working conditions enough to force huge numbers of parents to spend more hours working (more families need to incomes to make it as well) and less hours caring about everything else. First and worst victim -- public schools.

Noel Epstein: This obviously is not a question but an answer, this time from the left. I'm afraid that it is not my task to provide the questions. I would just say that many problems of the society at large end of affecting the public schools, and surely not just the decline of union membership.

_______________________

Virginia Beach, Va.: Who seems to care -- certainly not the parents for if they were concerned I feel things would change. What say you?

Noel Epstein: A lot of people, including parents, obviously do care about and about what happens to children at school, just as I imagine you do. That's why schools provide so many programs to help take care of children and assure that they are safe. To me, the problem is that too many things are expected of the schools by parents and others, and it is difficult for educators by themselves to deal with all the problems placed at the schoolhouse door. Others need to help -- and funds need to be provided for that help, funds that do not come out of school budgets.

Noel Epstein:

_______________________

Boston, Mass.: Fantastic piece. I was briefly in education until I realized schools are now expected to serve "in loco parent is," with actual educating very low on the job ladder. Parents just don't seem to care that much about parenting anymore.

Noel Epstein: I am sorry to hear that you were only briefly in education and left. We badly need good teachers to remain in education. High teacher turnover is arguably the chief academic problem facing schools, especially schools filled with disadvantaged children. I hope that the point I make -- that we need to relieve teachers of the many nonacademic burdens that are now the responsibility of schools -- will be heeded and help retain the teachers we need.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: I was also "briefly in education" -- four years. I just got so tired of uncooperative yet ignorant parents who wouldn't support the education happening in the classroom. We would ask that the student do two hours of work per night (sometimes more) and the parents would say that we were overburdening the students! Please note that these were ninth graders in an impoverished and low-educated neighborhood.

The biggest issue is fighting the parents own ignorance.

Noel Epstein: I am sorry to hear that you view parents as ignorant and unwilling to have their children be "overburdened" by two hours of homework. This, too, though is not a question but an answer. There obviously is a lot of pent-up anger among those who were "briefly in education."

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: Your article sums up D.C. Public Schools. It seems impossible to just teach when there are so many social issues surrounding the students.

Have you done any studies with DCPS?

Noel Epstein: I have not closely scrutinized DC public schools specifically for a good number of years.

I was in touch with Paul Vance when he was DC superintendent, after his years in Montgomery County, and he was exceedingly concerned about dealing with non-academic responsibilities of schools. Before he left, he and Mayor Williams announced that other DC agencies would be helping schools with at least some of those issues.

I'm sure the current superintendent is similarly concerned about nonacademic as well as academic issues. I have not had the chance, however, to study this and related questions about DCPS or some other school systems that I would like to look at.

_______________________

Prince George's County, Md.: Prince George's community college, parks and recreation, etc., appear to offer exceptional support for families who choose to homeschool their students. Most of the parents I have met who are homeschooling there children do it for a variety of reasons not particularly one reason. Many parents feel that the needs of their children are best met in a smaller learning environment. Most of the homeschooling parents I have met are college graduates.

Noel Epstein: Thank you for that information. I hope that the earlier questioner and others find it useful.

_______________________

Laurel: Fifty-seven percent of incoming college freshpersons are now women. Yet every April, employers observe Take our Daughters to Work Day, to encourage girls to take career aspirations seriously.

It's become unquestioned in parts of the mens rights movement that education has been a male-unfriendly institution. Does any of your research touch on the failure of schools to address the needs of boys?

Noel Epstein: No, I'm afraid that I have not seen studies of whether schools are failing to address the needs of boys, though I must say that I am surprised that you should suspect that they are. I also confess that I have never run across the word "freshperson" before. In my day, that meant something other than a person in his or her first year of high school or college.

_______________________

Alexandria, Va.: Thanks for focusing on this. This has been a topic that has been under the radar screen for not only the general public but sadly to say most school boards and superintendents as well. One critical component I would like to know more about is how you bridge the divide between the schools and the community. We have been trying for six years to bring about a community concept in our school system and have run into roadblocks from both the schools and local community groups already providing assistance. The schools are reluctant to outsource programs and local providers have established strong turf in order to protect funding and access. Have you seen any commonality to successful programs?

Noel Epstein: That's a very good question. There are, indeed, often tensions between schools and outside providers of non-academic services. The best source for getting more information on how to deal with that is the Coalition for Community Schools, which is based here in Washington, D.C., at the Institute for Educational Leadership. Some studies have been done, as I recall, on how such tensions have been overcome.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: What can I do as a parent to improve the situation? I teach my child values and social norms at home, but I do rely on the teacher for some things that perhaps I shouldn't I often feel like educators have knowledge and training that I don't when it comes to explaining difficult things, like why disasters happen and why people suffer. I don't mean to put and undue burden on the teacher, but I trust, perhaps wrongly, that they're better at this than I am.

Noel Epstein: You clearly are a very sensitive parent, and I suspect that you are doing the right things, both at home and in your relationship with teachers. If teachers think you are putting too much on their shoulders, I suspect they will let you know. It wouldn't hurt, though, to ask them if you are.

_______________________

Re: Washington, D.C.: Maybe it's good that he/she left education -- I don't think there are good reasons for saddling any kid, even in high school, with two hours of homework a night on a regular basis.

Perhaps if schools had more time to teach academics, less homework would be requested?

Noel Epstein: I don't know -- I remember have two hours of homework, though not on "the regular basis" you mention. I'm no expert on how much homework should be done, or at least how much that is assigned by schools.

_______________________

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.