Airport Security Check Point Changes

Washington Post staff writer Sara Kehaulani Goo will be online at 1 p.m. Wednesday, Nov. 30 to discuss new easements in security regulations that will be announced by the Transportation Security Administration on Friday.

In an article today , she reports that a new plan by the Transportation Security Administration would allow airline passengers to bring scissors and other sharp objects in their carry-on bags because the items no longer pose the greatest threat to airline security, according to sources familiar with the plans.

A transcript follows .

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Sara Kehaulani Goo: Thanks for tuning in to discuss airline security this afternoon. I'm glad there are so many questions so let's get started!

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Springfield, Va.: Since we're now going to allow the bad guys to carry on short knives and other items that could be used as weapons, shouldn't we all be carrying something to protect ourselves with? I guess a few murdered passengers and flight attendants don't bother TSA!

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Good question. I bet many people are thinking the same thing. One thing to consider is that many security analysts say that there are many ordinary items already allowed on planes that someone could turn into a weapon (a pen, for example) or other blunt objects. But they also say that one of the biggest security enhancements since 9/11 is a more vigilant public. So I guess, that is one way that passengers and crew have so far been able to maintain a safe cabin environment. Remember "air rage?"

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Washington, D.C.: Is this an article that mistakenly was printed in the Post instead of the Onion? Throwing stars? Seriously?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Seriously, one of the TSA documents I obtained from last summer had listed throwing stars. Since 9/11 the list of prohibited items has changed several times--at one point reflecting every possible item--knitting needles--that could be considered a weapon. Now it is being whittled down as security officials begin to think more logically about the risk of each item and the danger it poses to the aircraft as a whole.

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Arlington, Va.: I sympathize with flight attendants who fear that loosening controls on sharp objects could threaten their (& passengers') security, but it DOES seem to me that needlepoint scissors (less than 5" long) pose a threat to no one, and that allowing them in airports would reduce stress levels for countless stitchers who would otherwise be engaged in higher stress behaviors, such as reading the newspaper!

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Yes, this is something that I'm sure many people are thinking: What about us--the passengers?! But TSA officials seem to be focused on thinking about the biggest security risks in terms of bringing down an aircraft or imploding an aircraft rather than harm to those inside. They seem to think that passengers and crew will be able to handle possible violence in the cabin until the plane can be landed safetly.

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Windsor Mill, Md.: Sara

Thanks for you continued excellent reporting on TSA. As someone who served for 3 years as a screener (and hopes to return) this flies in the face of everything we were taught regarding what could be a threat. It appears that TSA may return almost completely to the pre-9/11 standards. In your opinion is this a security decision of another response to customer service issues and poor staffing? It seems to me another steps toward for-profit screening.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Good question and good to hear from a screener. These rule changes do seem to contradict what screeners have been trained to look for and what the public has been told about how to protect the nation's flying public. But on the other hand, they say they are responding to the biggest terror threats and those change over time. After all, we do not still operate under the assumption that hijackers just want the plane flown to Cuba anymore, right?

As for the resource issue--They are definitely constrained and I think there seems to be a lot of analysis and debate within TSA about how you manage risk with limited resources.

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Alexandria, Va.: Hi, thank you for taking my question.

I am taking my mom's creamated remains back home (PR China) for burial. I need to keep it as a carry-on and not have it opened for inspection at the check point for obvious reasons. Are there any thing I should know and prepare in advance to make the trip trouble-less?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: I don't think you should have any problem with this. TSA and the FAA are mostly concerned with hazardous materials and prohibited items. But I would check with both agencies' web site to be sure. www.faa.gov and www.tsa.gov

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Linden, N.J.: Just because it doesn't pose the GREATEST threat doesn't mean these sharp object items are not a threat in the hands of the wrong people!!! Remember the 9/11 planes were not blown up by bombs but hijacked by individuals with box cutters!!!

Will box cutters be allowed on planes now? What are these government officials thinking? If this is allowed, I will not feel secure in flying.

Thanks for your response!!!

Sara Kehaulani Goo: TSA has been debating whether to allow small knives back on planes but my sources tell me that that idea got nixed. But the fact that they were considering it indicates how much they are focused on addressing what they believe is both the next big threat and their greatest vulnerability: suicide bombings. Remember that last summer two Russian planes went down from such an attack. The TSA seems to be fairly confident that they now have enough measures in place to prevent another 9/11-style hijacking. Still, I'm sure many 9/11 victims' families are legitimately concerned about this move.

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Rockville, Md.: Weren't the implements that the 9/11 Hijackers used to gain control of the planes allowed on planes at that time? Is TSA now allowing those same type of sharp object back on board the planes?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Yes, at the time of the 9/11 attacks, the FEderal Aviation Administration did allow boxcutters and small knives under four inches long on board airplanes.

TSA is not ready to let boxcutters back on board. They have so far only planned to allow scissors under four inches and tools under 7 inches. Knives, I'm told, are a no-go still.

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Alexandria, Va.: TSA should also be looking at other realistic things to make air travel more convenient and less of a nuisance, such as not requiring people to remove their shoes or assume the position until proven innocent! Anything there?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Yes, there is more to come so stay tuned. TSA is also considering whether to make the shoe removal less routine but TSA's leader, Kip Hawley, said he doesn't want to do away with the procedure altogether. He has said that his strategy to good security is less predictable security. I take that to mean that you still may have to take off your shoes, but maybe not every time. Still--in a practical sense most people do it anyway to save time.

As for the pat-down, TSA is also reviewing that procedure. They are trying to put more "puffer" machines in airports --a technology that is an alternative to the pat downs.

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Washington, D.C.: This morning's article mentions only the postion of the Association of Flight Attendants. What do the airlines and the Pilots Association think of this new plan?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: I've asked the pilots about this in the past and they seem to generally be in favor of TSA's review. Many think that with the hardened cockpit door and more pilots trained in the cockpit to carry a gun, there doesn't seem to be as great a threat that terrorists will be able to take over the plane with boxcutters or other sharp objects. Many of them also are also tired of being hassled at security every working day.

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Chicago, Ill.: As a frequent flyer my biggest concern is consistency. I can live with whatever silly rules the TSA imposes, but whenever they change their requirements, I'm worried that some airports will get the memo and others won't, and it'll just mean more chaos and confusion for travelers. Is TSA making any effort to impose uniformity? Is that even their goal? (I read yesterday on another chat that TSA might be deliberately mixing things up among airports to keep terrorists off-balance.) Thanks.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Good question. This still seems to be unclear to me from the new leadership at TSA. Their biggest complaint (that I hear anyway) is inconsistency. Yet in a briefing with reporters, TSA director Kip Hawley said that they only way to throw terrorists off is to create MORE randomness into the process. So that when you go to the airport, for example, you won't know whether that day you will have to remove your shoes or not. To me, that sounds like more passengers will be irritated. Business travelers, especially, just want predictability

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Portland, Oreg.: Thanks for taking my question. My livelihood depends on traveling with tools and small cutting implements. So tools - screwdrivers, pliers - under 7 inches may be allowed on the new list, but not small pocket knives?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Glad to answer your question because many people have asked me: Who would bring a screwdriver onto an airplane. But you're right--many people bring odd things onto planes and they need to for their line of work. To answer your question: yes. My understanding is that pocket knives--if they contain a knife--will probably not be allowed back on. My sources talked about "tools" being allowed again and that was loosely defined. If it's an all-in-one tool kit w/o knife, you are OK.

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Windsor Mill, Md.: Just one comment about cremated remains. As long as the screener can see through it on the xray it's fine. If they can't recommend rerunning it with a quarter underneath. As long as they can see the quarter they know nothing else is inside. I have seen it go both ways at BWI and it's frustrating for all involved.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Here's a comment from someone who is apparently familiar with the cremated remains issue. Thanks, Windsor Mill.

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False sense of security anyway: As someone who does research on this countries prison system, I can tell you that anything and everything in this world can be made into a weapon if someone really wants to do it. I've seen deadly weapons made out of soap, hair clips, hairbrushes, tooth brushes, forks, spoons, tooth picks, fishing hooks, books, and even a cross. Next thing you'll know they'll ban all carry-on and want everyone to fly naked. And believe me they'll be nothing as frightening as having to see the citizens of this country in the buff. Ugh.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Ha ha. I agree!

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New York City: The TSA and its policies seem to create a false sense of security. Ever thought that the (broken) glass you're using in the bar or lounge or a simple pen can be used to harm people? I think a step back to reality is great, too much money is being spent on this already. If somebody wants to harm us, they will. Why is it actually that the TSA doesn't have a clear strategy anyway? Some airports will require you to take off any shoes, some only those that are thick enough to put something in it, and others just don't at all??

Sara Kehaulani Goo: There is a lot of confusion about the shoes and I think one of the reasons is that the rules change and there is not instant across-the-board training among screeners at every airport. For example, it took a while for TSA to get the word out last year about the new pat-down procedure. some airports were better computer-equipped and could instantly download and share new training techniques; others were not and therefore didn't get it for some time afterward. But, if TSA's new policy is that inconsistency or randomness is a good weapon to deter terrorists, then they are doing it right!

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San Diego, Ca.: I've been able to travel with my blunt safety scissors (kid sized) and crochet hooks, but a few weeks ago, a screener confiscated the same type of scissors from my sister. The consistency of the screeners at different airports is severely lacking...

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Yes, I hear this kind of thing a LOT. Best bet: put it in your checked luggage.

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Washington, D.C.: Once and for all, what's TSA's deal with lighters? Are they still banned? Has the ban been lifted? Will the ban be lifted? How come I have travelled with several in my carry-on and never been stopped or had them confiscated?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Yes, cigarette lighters--in fact all lighters--are still banned from carry-on luggage. But the really wacky thing is that matches are allowed. Go figure!

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Foolishness & no common sense: It sometimes seems that the items banned for potential harm make no common sense - or maybe it's the TSA screeners that have no common sense. My 2 yr old daugthers safety scissers were in her carry on bag and I was told they are a threatening & potentially dangerous weapon. They were designed by Fisher Price and are for toddlers so I guess Fisher Price should be told they are now making dangerous and deadly weapons for children. I bet they'd be shocked.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Now, your daughter can bring those scissors back--once TSA's plan is officially approved, that is.

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Minneapolis, Minn.: Just a comment on the "puffer" machines. I went through one in Oct. 2004 in Rochester, NY and set it off. The screener told me I had tested positive for nitroglycerine and asked me whether I worked with explosives. I don't. After a long interrogation, he finally suggested that perhaps it was something I had put on my hair. He finally let me go through, after insisting that the machine couldn't possibly have made an error in reading. I'm skeptical about these machines.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Interesting to hear your report. The jury is still out on these machines because they are very new, although they do use a very tried-and-true technology. They are basically puffing air at you and then "sniffing" it to detect for explosive materials. BUt you raise a good point--I don't know how they resolve these "positive" reads. I guess they let you go after you answer a bunch of questions? I'll look into that.

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Falls Church, Va.: I support the proposed changes in allowable objects. Screeners ought to be able to spend their time looking for more creative threats, not conducting routine searches for nail clippers. Intelligent people bent on taking over a plane can "weaponize" almost anything from socks full of billiard balls to sharp shards of plastic. TSA screening is an important part of lowering the risk of highjacking, but the risk can never be eliminated. The taking away of sewing scissors from Grandma contributes nothing to airline security, and I'm glad they now are admitting that.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Thanks for your comments. I have heard many similar remarks today---actually a divided response with people expressing relief and concern about this move.

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Fairfax, Va.: Aloha, Sara! With a name like that, you must originally be from Hawaii.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: A little personal note here since you asked and many people do: I am part native Hawaiian but I did not grow up in Hawaii.

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Washington, D.C.: I worked with TSA during the Loy administration - when will cargo become THE priority? We focused so much on the FAMS getting stood up that they still ignored the cargo.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Good question. Unscreened cargo is loaded into the bellies of commercial airlines next to the lugage that is screened. For many years, Congress and others have raised this obvious inconsistency. TSA has decided to move ahead with a "trusted shipper" program to better learn the identities of people sending the cargo onto planes. But it seems there is no larger effort taking shape to physically screen the cargo. We all cross our fingers, I guess.

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Lanham, Md.: oh, the terrorists won't do the airplane as a bomb number again if they get the chance??? I know I could sharpen a pair of now acceptable scissors to be as sharp as a razor, what makes the TSA and the dingbats in gov't security think that the terrorists can not??

Sara Kehaulani Goo: They think that the hardened cockpit door will prevent a takeover of the cockpit and passengers and crew will subdue the hijackers--a la shoe bomber flight.

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Alexandria, Va.: A semi-related question - with TSA trying several versions of trusted traveler programs, why doesn't TSA tap into the large local population of individuals with Security Clearances?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: That seems to be something the TSA has considered and may still be considering. I know there's a lot of you out there, especially in the Washington D.C. area, who have security clearances and think this should get you to be able to skip security. But my hunch--and this is not really based on fact--is that this simply would be a paperwork nightmare for the TSA and something that would require too much in the way of resources for them to do efficiently. I mean, their record in working with databases of people, such as with the "NO Fly" list and Secure Flight, does not leave a very good track record.

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Arlington, Va.: Just a friendly reminder for all those traveling in a few weeks for Christmas: there's this amazing service called THE U.S. POSTAL SERVICE that lets you mail stuff to your destination, so you don't have to lug it on the plane! Isn't that the greatest thing since sliced bread? Seriously, the only thing I carry on a plane is my purse, my camera, and my book. If it's Christmas, it's mailed in advance. Also, presents received are mailed back. Everything else goes in the suitcase.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Yes, thanks for the reminder.

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MD: you all are missing the point. The hijackers on 9-11 were able to take control of the plane primarily because NO ONE anticipated suicide missions in which the PLANES THEMSELVES were to be used as weapons. Prior to then, pilots and air crew were instructed to comply with the demands of the hijackers to limit harm to passengers and crew (who were thought to be the only ones in danger).

Now we know differently. As evidenced by the efforts of the passengers of flight 93 which crashed in PA (and who KNEW that other slights had been hijacked and purposely crashed), passengers will react and defend themselves.

ANYTHING can be a weapon is used correctly. Taking away my nail file hasn't saved anyone, nor has making every person in the US take off their shoes just because a minimum wage screener on a power trip thinks they should. Let's return to common sense.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Comment from Maryland.

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Alexandria, Va.: The TSA screeners and administrators should focus their efforts on stopping weapons. Real weapons. Guns. Knives. Bombs. And do that right 100% of the time.

If they want to remain in the business of stopping everything that could be a weapon - where do you draw the line? Would you not allow someone with martial arts training to fly? What about someone with military experience and training in close-quarter-hand-to-hand combat? Scissors, pen knives and knitting needles?

Just keep guns and bombs and knives off the planes and we'll all be fine.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Another perspective. Great comments--keep 'em coming. We have a good debate going here. The thing I love about airline security is that EVERYONE has an opinion about it. And everyone's an expert ;)

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Gaithersburg, Md.: Aloha Auinala (Good Afternoon) Sara:

I travel a lot for work and carry-on is my modus operandi. I truly miss the days where I could pack my Swiss Army Knife - a real lifesaver at times.

What is the difference in risk betwen my 4" bladed Swiss Army Knife (no OK) and a 7" "tool"?

I don't get it.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Well, I don't know what TSA's exact analysis is on that one. But there certainly is a political element to the federal government saying: it's okay to bring boxcutters and knives back on planes, right?

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Alexandria, Va.: Does this mean that I can begin to carry-on my LeatherMan tool?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: If it has a knife on it, which I assume it does, I assume the answer is no. We may learn more details on Friday, when the TSA makes its official announcement but from what I understand, knives of any kind will not be allowed.

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Washington, D.C.: Re: "They think that the hardened cockpit door will prevent a takeover of the cockpit and passengers and crew will subdue the hijackers--a la shoe bomber flight."

Remember right after September 11, 2001 how all the media were saying it was a "lack of imagination" that led us to think no way could or would someone fly a plane into a building?

Isn't what you said (subduing terrorists a la shoe bomber) a HUGE assumption?! I mean, let's ahem, use our imaginations here and assume it's a flight for Elderhostel travelers. Are we still going to assume we subdue any and all terrorists?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Good point. I'm not saying that this is my assumption. It's the assumption of many security officials at TSA and some security consultants outside of TSA.

But you raise a good point. The flying public was super-aware of their surroundings after 9/11 but now it's been a few years, you wonder how much that will wear off with time. Thanks

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Arlington, Va.: I'm glad to hear the restriction on short, sharp things will be diminished. I simply do not believe they are dangerous. Personally, I've had three pen knives (less than 1") seized. On the other hand, my knives have got through security (attached to my key chain) at least 15 times since 9/11. Once, when I once again forgotten to remove the knife from my key chain, I simply put it in the small -key] basket, and intentionally looked the TSA guy in the eye while I pocketed my keys. Devious, but I didn't want to lose another knife! All the confiscations have been at smaller airports, where TSA staff have more time to examine you. Dulles (my primary airport) is too busy to take notice.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Hmm. Interesting report from the field. Thanks

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Portland, Oreg.: When would the new list of prohibited items go into effect?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Good question. It's not in effect today. TSA is expected to make its announcement Friday. I don't know whether it will take effect before the holidays or after. My bet is that it will be in January, just because there are already so many travelers over the holidays who aren't familiar with the rules to begin with.

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Bethesda, Md.: Now that they're encouraging screeners to apply to be air marshals, does that mean they're increasing the number of air marshals on our flights? or is it a sign that they're having trouble finding people to fill the current positions?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: No, I do not believe they are increasing the number of air marshals. The idea here is to provide a career path in the federal government for airport screeners. The morale is really low among the ones I talk to --maybe some of you screeners can chime in--and really, the management wants to provide some incentive to stay on the job. THe agency has a really high turnover--the job, as you can imagine, is fairly routine, odd hours, etc.

I am really curious how screeners are going to be trained to be the skilled marksmen that air marshals have been trained to be. Supposedly, seasoned cops have washed out of the training they go through.

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Cold Feet: Forget the cigarette lighters, the box cutters and scissors -- why am I still required to remove my shoes every single time I go through airport security? It's pretty gross to have to walk on a cold, dirty carpet in bare or stocking feet when I'm traveling in dress shoes for work. Has shoe removal ever even helped TSA stop an incident from occurring?

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Not that I'm aware of. I think I addresssed the shoe removal question earlier. But the good news is that, at National Airport, now they have these little disposable booties you can slip on over your bare feet at the security checkpoint. I haven't tried them but found it kind of amusing that the airport now provides these.

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Boston, Mass.: Why is the TSA still in a reactive mode concerning the removal of shoes before security screening. I travel abroad some and have not had to remove my shoes for security screening. Only in the US is this mandated, and although the TSA sometimes says it is optional, it appears to be mandated. It is beyond silly, I have seen TSA require folks to remove flip-flops, sandals, as well as running shoes, dress shoes, boots. What is the point? If someone tries to take a bomb on board hidden in a bra, will all women be forced to remove their bras? How about hidding a bomb in jockey shorts etc. TSA gives the impression of always looking for yesterday's ideas and not looking ahead.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Interesting observation--and I hope not!

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Laurel, Md.: We took our 4 month old baby on a trip over the summer and they actually patted her down and scanned her!!! It looked so ridiculous.

Personally, and I'll sound very politically incorrect here, they should spend more time looking at individuals that fit the profile. I know folks are told that there is no profile - but come on my white, 76 yr old mother is a threat to no one in the terrorist sense. We are too afraid of offending people.

Sara Kehaulani Goo: Some people feel this way. Regardless of PC-ness, if you even begin to think of how to do this, is it realistic?

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Sara Kehaulani Goo: I wish I could answer all of your many questions and comments but we're out of time. Sorry if I didn't get to you. But if you have an airline security tip to share, please feel free to email me later at goos@washpost.com. Thanks!

Sara

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