Williams Faces Scheduled Execution

The Case Against Granting Clemency

Robert Martin , L.A. County deputy district attorney in the 1981 murder trial of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, was online Monday, Dec. 12, at 3 p.m. ET to discuss the case and the reasons why he is not in favor of granting clemency.

Read the story: Inmate's Fate in Schwarzenegger's Hands (AP, Dec. 9)

The transcript follows.

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Robert Martin: I respect the opinion of those who oppose the death penalty on moral grounds and clemency is a sort of safety valve in the scheme of government, but it's reserved for exceptional and rare cases and is difficult to earn. I don't believe that the Williams case qualifies for clemency. And in order to back up that statement I think I should say why. And that is that he used his own sawed-off shotgun to commit multiple murders. These murders were senseless and entirely unnecessary to rob the victims. Friends and accomplices testified that he bragged about the killings, and the mass murder escape plan was contained in documents in his own handwriting. The jury was racially mixed, and he had outstanding defense attorneys in Joe Ingber and Steve Erlick. In addition, for a quarter of a century, teams of prestigious lawyers from prominent firms have challenged every aspect of the case in repeated appeals to state and federal courts, and all the courts have upheld the jury's verdict of guilt and penalty of death. Ironically, even his present lawyers, headed by a person by the name of Peter Fleming, in their latest appeal to Governor Schwarzenegger, have avoided claiming innocence in favor of arguing that Williams is a changed man. That's in the latest petition. So in spite of all this, Williams has never expressed remorse, never taken responsibility, never apologized or shown any sympathy to the victims' family for devastating the lives of wives, fathers, children...two families have been completely destroyed. So it comes down to why are we talking about rehabilitation and redemption. The only regret that he has expressed is for robberies and assaults and gang-banging against, in his own words, his own people. I call this a "go-home free" card, because he's never been convicted of these crimes, so he can discuss these crimes with impunity. Therefore his claims of atonement and redemption are highly selective and don't apply to the actual known crimes he committed, but to only some vague crimes involving only black people. So we have the situation where he's begging for mercy, while refusing to admit his guilt, and I don't think there's any moral equivalency between co-authoring some children's books and blowing away four innocent, helpless people with a shotgun in two cheap robberies. So what's the message if clemency is granted? I don't think it's a good message, I think it would be that the glitz and glamour of Hollywood hype is more important than the integrity of our judicial system, and I believe that we must have confidence in our courts and in our system of justice, otherwise we begin to have a lawless society. I want to say that I have no personal relationship with the defendant and I have no personal relationship with the victims' family although grieve for their loss and for their sufferings. And so I try to take an objective view, and I am mostly concerned about the justice system and our courts.

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Robert Martin: I am perplexed why the NAACP, Amnesty International and the ACLU have focused their attention on this particular person and there's been millions spent by the media and all sorts of people with full pages ads. I think that if they're advocates against the death penalty, it should be done in a different forum because reasonable minds can differ about the death penalty. And when I speak about the death penalty it's only for California, I don't' speak about it nationally or internationally. I know that in California the safeguards are so extensive that there is no possibility that an innocent person could be executed. It's surprising to me that the advocates against the death penalty chose this case to make their arguments.

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Sterling, Va.: Mr. Martin, I have not followed the story of Tookie Williams very closely until recently. Is there DNA evidence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tookie Williams was the killer of those four people? Why do you think Tookie Williams and his defense team still maintain his innocence? If there were anything that might prove his innocence, do you think it ought to be examined?

Robert Martin: First of all there's no DNA evidence to examine. It's not applicable in any sense to this case. Second of all, the scientific forensic evidence was the firearms examiner had a test shell from the shotgun which was owned by Williams because we had his bill of sale and his driver's license when he bought it. The firearms examiner testified that one of the shells that he didn't pick up (this one was found under a coach at Brookhaven murder scene) was looked at under a comparative microscope to a test shell from the same shotgun. The test shell and the shell found at the scene examined under a comparative microscope proved that the unique pattern on each shell proved that it came from Williams' shotgun and no other shotgun. Then the mass murder escape attempt was all contained in documents written by Williams. The handwriting expert testified that it was indeed his handwriting and no one else's. The accomplice in the case, Alfred Coward, testified to the 7-11 murder of Albert Owens and have a detailed description of the entire evening as to what happened. His testimony was corroborated by other witnesses that passed the scene in the early morning hours of the 7-11 murders and by a highway patrol officer whom Coward said they say giving a ticket on the highway the same evening. That officer came into court with the ticket.

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San Rafael, Calif.: Putting aside old legal decisions of guilt, I have two questions relevant to Tookie Williams today. First, is it true he refuses to withdraw membership and support for the Crips gang? Second, did someone else provide the idea's and writing-talent for his book(s)?Thanks.

Robert Martin: I really can't answer that question, I have to refer to other people. In San Quentin it is reported that he has not cut off his ties to various gangs. It is beyond my knowledge to answer that. Barbara Becknel is the journalist who has stimulated most of the interest outside for Williams. She traveled to Switzerland to get Mario Far to nominate him for the Nobel Peace prize. She has been very active and from what I know she has been very prominent in helping Williams write the books. She is an expert in gangs and has played a prominent role in helping to write the books.

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North Carolina: It's about 3PM, any update on the clemency status?

My personal opinion is that the death penalty is enforced too broadly in this country, although statistics show that the past 3-4 have lead to a more narrow focus on implementation. I support it for the most harsh cases, and this case meets that criteria.

Mr. Williams, regardless of his books, seems to show little remorse and is unwilling to provide any information against the "Crips" to the authorities.

What are your views?

Robert Martin: I would agree. He has refused to debrief law enforcement about the techniques of the gangs in San Quentin. They tried to debrief him but he said if he did that he would be a snitch, so he appears to still adhere to the code of the gangs.

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Albany, N.Y.: What was the most compelling piece or pieces of evidence showing Mr. Williams's guilt?

Robert Martin: In a trial that involves both circumstantial and direct evidence it is the accumulation of evidence that brings about a conviction of guilt, and therefore it's difficult to point to one thing. It was undoubtedly established that he owned the shotgun and it was that shotgun that committed the killings, and second of all his own statements both written and oral did much to prove his guilt.

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Alexandria, Va.: Mr. Martin, thank you for taking the time to chat today. I am strongly against the death penalty, but I respectfully acknowledge that the controversy surrounding this particular execution is baffling. Regarding your support of the death penalty, what end do you see executions achieving? Do you feel they deter crime, or is it merely a sense of punishment or retribution? What do you see as the ultimate goal of the penal system?

Robert Martin: I have never argued that the death penalty deters crime in general. The fact is that it only deters that criminal from killing again. I believe that in California we have what is called "determinant sentencing." I explain it this way: years ago we had people sentenced to the term prescribed by law, and that was done by a commission running the penal system. And the penal code said that the object of incarceration was rehabilitation. In the late 1970s the penal code was changed, and it now reads that the object of incarceration is punishment. And since every crime carries a determination, for instance robbery would be the two, three or five years and if the person used a gun it would be two more years, the judge determines the sentence after he reads the probation report. Now with the death penalty it's the only time that the jury determines not only guilt, but also the sentence. It must be unanimous with all 12 jurors. Furthermore they have to find any special circumstance true beyond a reasonable doubt. And the jury also hears aggravating and mitigating circumstances during the penalty trial. So we have a guilt trial and we have a penalty trial. Even after all of that the judge has the power to reduce the sentence to life without the possibility of parole if he feels it's appropriate. So what we're left with is that every crime has it's own determinant sentencing, except special consideration is always given to death penalty cases by having the jury determine the sentence. And therefore if we are a society of laws, and the courts uphold the sentence, unless there is some extremely unusual aspect to it such as the defendant was for example brain damaged or mentally ill, it seems appropriate for that sentence to be carried out. But again I am only speaking about California. I know the California law and I know the safeguards that we have in California. It may be that if the death penalty is finally eliminated, those people who are opposed to the death penalty may well start a campaign to eliminate the life without the possibility of parole on the basis that it is cruel and unusual. The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the California and United States Constitution state that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law. Stanley Williams has had 25 years of due process of law.

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Washington, D.C.: Mr. Martin

Do you think that having a man on death row for 24 years gives anyone justice? And can anyone change in that time?

Robert Martin: Of course people can change, and undoubtedly many do. I say any good that they do I applaud. But I ask, do you think that there is a moral equivalency between changing and writing some books and the heinousness of four murders?

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Guilty by Association: Not only should Williams pay the price for the murders that he committed himself but since he co-founded the Crips, and those members have killed many, many people, Williams should be found guilty-by-association for all the killings simply because he created the gang!

Robert Martin: In the trial, no mention was ever made of his gang activities. And it is my opinion that life is so sacred that no decision on the death penalty should be made except on the basis of what the evidence shows he actually did.

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McLean, Va.: Mr. Martin, I am amazed how Hollywood, with all of its resources, chooses to advocate for a killer vs. helping the poor, fighting AIDS, promoting literacy etc. on a full-time basis and not only when their careers require some show of charity. Also, I am so tired of everyone saying that Williams has saved lives. He may be an anti-gang advocate now when it suits him but to say he's saving lives seems more than a bit presumptuous. Has anyone quantified that? And how would you quantify something like that?

Robert Martin: I think the only evidence is anecdotal, because in the Los Angeles Times today, gang murders and robberies are up 30%. in Los Angeles. There's been no study or any objective measurement of what if any effect his books have had.

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Anonymous: What's to be gained by sending Williams to his death -perhaps prematurely- when there are still lingering doubts as to whether he actually did commit the crimes in question. Whatever happened to '...beyond any reasonable doubt....'?

Robert Martin: Nothing ever happened to "beyond a reasonable doubt." That was the standard upon which he was convicted, and since federal, state (California Supreme Court, Federal District Court, Federal 9th Circuit of Appeals, United States Supreme Court) have all looked at this evidence that has been challenged by the best lawyers in the country, no court has found any lingering doubt. This has occurred over a period of 25 years.

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McLean, Va.: After the trial did any of the gangsters try to get you? Did you drive yourself around and walk out in the open? What about today, are you scared?

Robert Martin: I've had six verdicts of death from juries and 11 cases of life without the possibility of parole. During World War II I flew in a sperryball turret at the bottom of a B-24 bomber in Italy and therefore have faced death on more than one occasion. One must accept threats as part of the territory and also falsehoods directed at you, personal attacks, mean you must have a crocodile's hide if you want to be a criminal trial lawyer.

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washingtonpost.com: Crips Founder Williams Denied Clemency (Dec. 12)

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Washington, D.C.: CNN is reporting that the governor has denied clemency.

washingtonpost.com: Crips Founder Williams Denied Clemency (Dec. 12)

Robert Martin: I am not surprised because I think the governor took his time, did not take the issue lightly, thoroughly examined the evidence, and I believe he wanted to be assured that the evidence was iron-clad.

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Alexandria, Va.: Mr. Martin, I appreciate your opening comments.

While I recognize it is not possible to "know what another person is thinking" - I would like to inquire as to your opinion regarding why a few individuals in Hollywood have chosen to rally behind a known gang banger?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Robert Martin: Let me say I am as perplexed as you are as to why they would act as they have, and I can only say that it is probably due to lack of information and knowledge of the facts of the case. Isn't it surprising that the compassion and sympathy that we should be feeling for the victims' families has been usurped by the criminal as he is made a celebrity.

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Arlington, Va.: I am a federal prosecutor who has had to deal with gang violence -- much of it involving the Crips -- in numerous instances over many years. Against that background, I am highly skeptical of the claims of his defenders that his anti-gang efforts have had much effect, and given the magnitude of the violence he unleashed through his founding of the Crips I am equally skeptical that clemency is warranted.

With that said, however, I was surprised by your comment above that "I know that in California the safeguards are so extensive that there is no possibility that an innocent person could be executed." How can review procedures ever exclude claims of "actual innocence"? I note, as you point out, that Tookie's defenders are casually tossing "actual innocence" around while formally (and rather cynically) claiming rehabilitation in his court paperwork. But I nonetheless question your broad statement that state procedures can preclude erroneous convictions in all cases.

Robert Martin: Let me say that trucks on the highway kill people every day. Doctors do make mistakes in their practice, negligently maybe or unintentionally. We don't ask to get rid of doctors and we don't ask to get rid of trucks, so I am no Solomon, I cannot say that there is absolutely no possibility of anybody ever being executed in California that is innocent. I only am satisfied to the extent that I am willing and have been willing to try these cases with the belief that the system is as good as we can make it, and that that performance is of such quality that I can continue to be a prosecutor on special circumstance death penalty cases. When you has the question "possibility" perhaps I used the wrong word, because it is possible the sun won't come up tomorrow. But I think that the system is good enough to proceed with cases.

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Alexandria, Va.: Did Mr. Williams undergo any forensic psychological testing while awaiting trial? If so, what were the results. I have extensive experience working as a therapist, working with inmates or probationers in the department of corrections. Without benefit of testing, or other methods of evaluation, my impression of Mr. Williams is that he seems like a sociopath, who's only interest in writing anti-gang books was to save his life, and satisfy his narcissistic need for notoriety. He just doesn't sound convincing in his denial of the irrefutable evidence that led to his conviction, and his claims of redemption seem flat and emotionally detached.

Robert Martin: I only know that no psychological testing of the defendant came into evidence at the trial. However, at the appeal level, at one time, the defense was putting forth the issue of brain damage, but that was later discarded because you cannot claim brain damage on the one hand, and innocence on the other. A mental defense, if presented, says in effect "I did the crimes, but I was impaired."

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Richmond, Va.: "do you think that there is a moral equivalency between changing and writing some books and the heinousness of four murders?"

You can answer your own question, perhaps. These things are difficult to estimate, but how many murders do you think Williams has prevented through his post-conviction work?

Robert Martin: I have no measurable evidence that his books have had any effect whatsoever. There have been no studies, and the only evidence is anecdotal. But today's Los Angeles Times has produced a study showing that gang violence in Los Angeles has increased 30% in the last year.

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Robert Martin: I appreciate the questions and it tells me that the public has paid attention to the facts and has not been overwhelmed by the emotional outpouring in the media. It's also, when they talk about the Nobel Prize, the newspapers published that Hitler, Mussolini and Castro have all been nominated for the Nobel Prize for Peace. Thank for the discussion.

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