Hybrid Perks May Become Problems

The purchase of a hybrid car is more and more likely to put its driver into a privileged class of motorist with access to carpool lanes, special parking spots and other perks -- the kinds of things most drivers can only dream about when they're stuck in traffic or circling a block.

But many commuters and some transportation experts say the generous incentives intended to reduce oil consumption and help clean the air are working too well and are in danger of becoming unfair, unnecessary and, ultimately, counterproductive. ( Read More .)

Washington Post staff writer Steven Ginsberg was online Tuesday, Feb. 14, at 3 p.m. ET to discuss how the perks of owning hybrids may become problems. Ginsberg also fielded other questions or comments about local transportation you may have had.

The transcript follows.

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Steven Ginsberg: Good afternoon hybrid lovers and haters! There's lots of comments, so let's get going...

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Vienna, Va.: I am the proud owner of a 2005 Prius, and when people give me the chance I never stop talking about how great the car is. (Can't beat 45 mpg in mostly town driving... whoops, don't get me started.)

However, I do not favor extending the HOV exemption. It was a good idea to help encourage a new technology, but those one-person hybrid vehicles still crowd the roads and take up parking space. Hybrids are great in SO MANY WAYS (there I go again) but they do not substitute for carpooling.

I have not bothered to get the special tags for my Prius -- which, in case I have not mentioned it before, I love love love.

Steven Ginsberg: We're going to start with a middle of the road consensus builder on this one.

But I have a question: What did you get your Prius for Valentine's Day?

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Kingstowne, Va.: I have been commuting for three years during rush hour from the Springfield area to D.C. My hybrid has cut half an hour each way off of my previous commute time. In the rare instances that the HOV lanes slow down(maybe twice a month), it is because of CHEATERS, not hybrids. Crack down on cheaters, not the people who are helping to clean the air by getting 45 MPG and producing 90 percent less smog than everyone else.

Steven Ginsberg: This is the basic hybrid owner position. The time savings are pretty dramatic. And, despite your experience, the congestion can be too. I've been out there and I've sat through it. It depends a lot on what time you're there; the congestion is not all morning or evening long, and not even all mornings and evenings.

But you're also right about cheaters. If they got rid of them that would probably be enough to get rid of almost all congestion. The state has changed its laws and practices to cut the number of cheaters in half, but they still account for 15 percent or more of HOV users.

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Arizona Bay, Ariz.: So, people who make a conscious effort to reduce our "addiction to oil" and help save the environment SHOULDN'T get a reward?? It's called bribery people and participate in it throughout our entire lives, whether it being as the one doing the bribing or the one being bribed.

Steven Ginsberg: Well apparently they should get a reward, as they do all over the country with HOV exemptions and coveted parking spots. And I wouldn't even call it bribery. It's just the government providing an incentive to something it thinks benefits us all.

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Arlington, Va.: I am so sick of people carping about hybrids in the HOV lanes, taking up space. If the highway patrol would pull people over who are driving illegally in the HOV lanes, slap them with $1000 (yes, ONE THOUSAND DOLLAR) fines, then congestion would probably go down. And the fines could be applied to mass transit in the suburbs.

Steven Ginsberg: They have raised the fines in the last year, but $1000 would definitely have a greater effect than what it is now. (I think $50 for the first ticket and then $100 or $200 after that.) A severe fine seems like the only real solution since it's so hard and costly to police the lanes. If you charged people enough money they'd stay away.

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Silver Spring Md.: I think that HOV should be expanded into Maryland. Besides the environmental and the cost savings benefits, the potential to mix FFV technology with hybrids is a security measure. When we buy petroleum from the Middle East, we are helping fuel our enemies.

HOV lanes should also favor FFV and biodiesel and let the gas hogs sit in gridlock.

Steven Ginsberg: There is a bill in the Maryland General Assembly to allow hybrids in its HOV lanes, but I'm not sure what chances it has to succeed.

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Hybrid envy: I have a diesel VW that gets better gas mileage than a hybrid on the highway and can even run on vegetable oil, but we don't get the same love. Sad.

Steven Ginsberg: This is one of the arguments that the state's transportation director often makes. There are a number of cars that get gas mileage as good as many hybrids, but no love for them. It is kind of a double standard.

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Slow lanes: As evidenced last week, the HOV lanes could be renamed the Prius lane. Didn't see more than the driver in any of them either. Traffic slowed to a crawl at points as well.

Steven Ginsberg: One of the things that state officials are worried about is what the lanes will look like in a year or two. Two years ago hybrids accounted for 4 percent of traffic on the I-95/395 HOV. In the fall, that number was nearly 25 percent. That's a huge, huge difference in a very short amount of time. If everyone keeps buying hybrids--and why wouldn't they?--before long you're talking about half of HOV users being hybrid drivers. That's fine if that's what you want, but that's not an HOV lane anymore.

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Wrong: I saw NO cheaters on the HOV. LOTS of hybrids though.

Steven Ginsberg: You weren't looking hard enough. No one questions that loads of people cheat. The challenge with them is enforcement. It's much easier to just say "No more hybrids" than it is to get rid of all those cheaters.

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Dunn loring: any chance I-66 will be excluded from the hybrid HOV exemption extension? this road should be HOV-4. Three more years of this commute I might be forced into retirement (I am currently 25).

Steven Ginsberg: That's something people have talked about, but I'm not sure lawmakers would agree to make it that road specific. It is important to remember that most of the problems are on 95/395. I-66 and the Dulles Toll Road don't seem to have anywhere near the same hybrid issues.

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Silver Spring, Md.: Shame on the Post ed board for yesterday's short-sighted piece. Your editorial writers should get out of the ivory tower atop 15th Street once in awhile so you can absorb the big picture. Isn't it in everyone's best interest to get more super-clean, high-MPG cars on the road in the largest numbers possible? Hybrids cost more, so you need incentives if you want to get beyond the tree-hugger segment. If the goals are cleaner air and less oil use, hybrids are a big part of the solution. Society should be doing everything possible to get more people to invest in hybrids, from tax breaks to free car washes.

Steven Ginsberg: Why is it we're always accused of being in an ivory tower? What is an ivory tower anyway?

I'll speak for myself and not the editorial staff, which wrote its own hybrid opinion piece over the weekend. Just to be clear, their story and my story had nothing to do with each other; I didn't even know they were doing one.

That said, I think most people would agree that a hybrid-filled world is better than a non-hybrid one. The concern for many is that carpools are also a very good way to achieve the same goals that hybrids provide. They save oil, cut down on smog, etc. So why kill one good policy with another one?

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Fairfax County, Va.: The HOV exemption, as your article stated, has helped make a red state the second largest hybrid market behind visionary California. I know Republicans who bought hybrids to cut their commute time, and who are so embarrassed that they drive the same car as their political rivals that they try to turn it into a free market argument about "buying their way out of congestion." Hilarious. Shouldn't we all get behind programs that make everyone want to be green, no matter what their reason?

Steven Ginsberg: The irony is that Virginia's pioneering efforts to cut down on oil and improve the environment have been so successful that they've become a problem.

I could be wrong about this, but I think we're reaching the point where hybrids aren't just for the environmentally-conscious anymore. I think they're going mainstream, due partly to incentives and partly to high gas prices. I think your Republican friends will be in the clear soon enough.

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Bethesda, Md.: The problem with the HOV exemption (or other benefits) for hybrids is that it's rewarding a particular technology, with no concern to the actual benefits it provides. The hybrid Lexus RX400, which costs $40,000 and gets only 32 mpg on the highway, gets to ride solo in an HOV lane, but a plain old Honda Accord that gets 34 mpg highway does not. A regular Honda Civic gets 40 mpg highway, and no HOV exemption. Why? Why does spending extra cash on some special gizmos make one car more "worthy" than another, even if it might not actually get better mileage?

Any benefits, be they tax breaks, HOV exemptions, free parking, etc, should be based on MPG, pollution per mile, or some other measureable benefits - not handed out just 'cause your car has an electric motor in addition to the gas engine.

Steven Ginsberg: That's a fair point. Virginia has struggled a little to differentiate between the good hybrids and the so-so ones and that has created the sort of dynamic you bring up. State officials are pretty up front about some of the unfairness in the models allowed, but that decision was made some time ago and they feel they can't undo it now. I think they are moving toward more rigorous standards in the future, especially as all kinds of hybrids come out.

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Crawling to Tysons, Va.: The real way to incentivize the more fuel efficient cars is to add to the gas tax. I know politically that is a no-no, but what happened to the days when our politicians were interested in doing something for the public good (those who they are really responsible to) instead of just to get reelected and obtain more campaign funds from corporations (generally Republicans) and unions (generally Democrats)?

I don't understand why the political center of America has the most spineless politicians in the U.S. Makes me sick.

Steven Ginsberg: I didn't realize the political center had any politicians. Aren't they all just crazy idealogues on both sides?

Raising the gas tax is not a-gonna happen these days, but I suspect you're right in saying it would make a lot of people rethink their automobile purchase.

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Alexandria Va: You missed the real story -- that the people who are behind all of the misinformation about alleged HOV lane congestion are the ones who want to put toll lanes on the Beltway and I-395.

Steven Ginsberg: They are not the ones behind the "alleged congestion issue," but I do think it's fair to say that every hybrid-HOV user is one less vote in favor of turning those lanes into express tolls where they'd have to pay. You get enough of them and the express tolls start to run into some real problems.

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Stop the Madness!!!: Anyone who does not think the Hybrids are clogging the HOV lanes on 95 is simply not looking. Why can't these people just pick up slugs or form a car pool? Nothing is more upsetting than driving my two others to D.C. and having some jerky hybrid driver tailgate me. When I move over, he or she flies bye and turns to look at me with that smug look of entitlement. "Don't look at me...I'm doing my part b/c I can afford to pay an extra $5000 for my car. So I have the right to be in these lanes!" We aren't saying they can't use the lanes--just pick up two others like the rest of us. Why is that so hard???

Steven Ginsberg: Oh, come on, hybrid drivers don't all have that smug look. Me thinks perhaps that's in your head as much as theirs.

To answer your question, the question is what they were doing before they owned their hybrid. If they carpooled, then switching to a hybrid is bad. If they drove a regular car in the regular lanes, then going hybrid is likely good.

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Reston, Va.: Isn't it ironic that hybrids get HOV exemptions to operate in their least efficient mode?

Steven Ginsberg: It is ironic!

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No extension!!!: With gas prices what they are now (and most likely set to stay there indefinitely or go higher), isn't the savings on gas enough of an incentive for hybrid purchase?

Steven Ginsberg: No, not really. The math doesn't really work for a few years, depending on what other car you would be buying. Also, a lot of it has to do with the upfront cost. A Prius costs something like $23k. It's harder to plunk that down than $18k for something similar even if you know over the next x number of years you'll end up ahead.

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Arlington, Va.: What a waste of space. Your story should have focused on the real problem, the lazy police who refuse to monitor traffic behavior. That's why we have such ridiculous driving throughout the area, and why we have such rampant cheating in the HOV lanes.

Steven Ginsberg: Aww, come on. It wasn't a waste of space. It got you all fired up.

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Washington, D.C.: Isn't the goal of the program to get as many alternative fuel vehicles on the road as possible? Considering there are more than 17 millions vehicles sold each year these numbers are still relatively small. The incentives are working and in order to see some benefit (green house gas, smog forming emissions or fuel consumption) we need to get as many of these vehicles as possible on the road. I say keep incentivizing until the only vehicles made are hybrids or other alternative fuel vehicles.

Steven Ginsberg: That is one of the main goals. But if so many of them are on the lanes and the lanes congest than you've defeated the purpose of reducing smog, etc. The worst thing for air quality is congestion.

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Washington, D.C.: A solo hybrid civic or prius in the HOV lane still gets better miles per passenger than a 4 person Hummer. Do the laws allow for the flexibility to base HOV lane rights on highway miles per passenger? It'd seem some sort of "sticker" option could say "you can use the HOV lane if your vehicle gets 60 Miles per passenger." There are mileage tables and the sticker could be granted to allow a prius or jetta diesel with 2 persons to use the HOV lanes and require a hummer or other guzzler to have 5 people to get into the HOV lane. I'm sure that would cut back on traffic there, and the MPP threshold could be adjusted periodically if the lanes are over or under utilized.

Steven Ginsberg: I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of mileage standard in the near future. Not sure it would envelop non-hybrids though.

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Hybrid vs HOV/HOT: Isn't the Northern Virginia hybrid boom basically just a round-about way of doing HOT? People are ponying up extra cash to use the HOV lanes, is how I read the decision process. Of course, three hybrids in the HOV means MORE pollution, since they have the same emissions as 1 regular car, and add to the overall congestion.

Steven Ginsberg: I don't think so. I think the more people who enjoy the current setup, the less people who are eager to see it change over to HOT or anything else. Hybrid drivers lose their perk on HOT lanes.

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Woodbridge, Va.: I realize that people are upset at the Hybrids "clogging" up the HOV Lanes. But let's be honest, HOV Lanes are opperational during peak times only, therefore, these fuel efficient cars are being used everyday for other purposes. Whether it's traveling to visit relatives, buying groceries, or picking up the kids. I will definately support any law that provides incentives for people buying cars that are a little more environment friendly, even if they "clog" traffic.

Don't fool yourselves into thinking people buy these cars for a lousy tax credit. If it weren't for the HOV exemption, very few Hybrids would ever be bought. Kudos to the Virginia State Government! I hope our Governor signs the extension into law. Thank you.

Steven Ginsberg: It's telling that outside Northern Virginia, only about 1,000 hybrids have been sold in the state. But I think that's changing. President Bush is even on board, so you gotta think it's going mainstream.

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Harrisburg, Pa.: Pennsylvania, and I presume other states, are considering tax incentives to encourage people to buy the more expensive hybrid automobiles. Yet, what are the equity issues in this? What is the average income of those who buy hybrids? How much fuel is conserved by a hybrid, and might a similar amount of government funds be more effective in conservative if spent somewhere else?

Steven Ginsberg: It's interesting to me that there is some underlying animosity toward hybrid drivers. People accuse them of being super-wealthy or nauseatingly sanctimonious or whatever. Hybrids cost less than the SUVs and Minivans most people drive and I think many of them do it just to do their part in helping the environment. Why does that have to be a political issue? Why do people feel threatened and put off by that?

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Alexandria, Va.: Why is nobody paying attention to the problems caused by slug lines in downtown D.C.? During the evening commute down 14th Street there are lines of stopped cars every couple of blocks. Doesn't this cause a safety hazard for other commuters? And doesn't slower traffic result in more air pollution?

Steven Ginsberg: We've written about this a number of times. The slug lines do cause some potential troubles, but slugging is such an effective, beneficial way to commute that most people let it go.

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Washington, D.C.: People who invested in hybrids spent thousands more for those vehicles, which will never be recouped at the gas pump unless you keep the vehicle 15 years. Hybrids also have higher maintenance costs, such as more expensive oil changes due to the need for synthetic oil, as well as eventual battery replacement. Why penalize those people who are part of the solution? How about a serious crackdown on cheaters instead?

Steven Ginsberg: It's not really a question of penalizing the people who are part of the solution. It's a question of figuring out what is the right incentive for them. The HOV one is clearly up for debate. If that goes, I suspect we'll see others take its place.

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Anonymous: In allowing Hybrids on HOV, Virginia is in violation of federal law, correct?

Steven Ginsberg: not any more. the feds changed their law in the fall to allow for the exemption. they added a line that says the exemption ends if hybrids degrade service, but it's unclear yet what standards they apply to that.

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Arlington, Va.: DO THREE Hybrids produce as much bad stuff for the environment as three people in ONE car (say, my 2001 Saturn) do? That's the discussion we should be having, not comparing ONE Hybrid to ONE other car.

Steven Ginsberg: The cleanest hyrbids, the Prius and Civic, produce half as much smog causing emissions as a regular car. So two people in your Saturn equals one in a Prius. Three people in your Saturn beats it. BUT, those hybrids save a lot of gas and emit fewer greenhouse gases and they are on the road at all times, not just on the way to work. So it depends how you look at it.

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Alexandria, Va.: Doesn't anybody remember what the HOV lanes were like before hybrids could use them? They were empty. EMPTY. You could roll a bowling ball down them and not hit anybody or anything. How can a return to wasted driving lanes, and further clogged regular lanes, be helpful to anybody? Yes, I'm a Prius driver, and those HOV lanes regularly travel at 80 mph going and coming to D.C. How can that be inefficient? Kudos to the VA legislature for increasing the use of these "extra" lanes by encouraging clean air, clean fuel hybrids.

Steven Ginsberg: Generally you're right. HOV lanes are mostly underused and that's why you see a big movement to HOT lanes, where single drivers can pay to use that excess space. The big exception is on 95/395, where there is real congestion.

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golden triangle: I work at 15th and L too... I wouldn't call The Post an ivory tower by any stretch. Maybe dirtied concrete edifice.

Steven Ginsberg: Dirtied concrete edifice is about right. I'm slunked over at a cubicle in the middle of a fifth floor office where I can't even see a window.

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Wheaton, Md.: It's safe to assume that every hybrid driver replaced a vehicle that got worse mileage and produced more emissions. (In my case, I went from 17 MPG to 41 MPG.) How can this possibly be bad in any way?

Steven Ginsberg: It's not bad unless you used to carpool and now you don't. Having a hybrid is probably still better, depending on how much driving you do, but it's important to remember that carpooling is also a very good thing to do.

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RE: Hybrids the solution??: Sorry, but hybrids are no solution to any problem. This has been recognised by all the auto manufacturers on numerous occasions. It has been widely accepted that hybrids are just a temporary fix while fuel cells or cars that run on cleaner fuels are developped and made accessible. Hybrids barely get better mileage at fast speeds, if at all, and their emissions are just as bad as the next car. What next, a Hybrid H2 will go on the HOV lane with one driver, getting 13mpg instead of 12, while a regular civic user, getting almost 40mpg has to sit in traffic? PLEASE

Steven Ginsberg: That's some pretty selective info you're using there. I think it's hard to argue that a car that gets 50 mpg is not better than one that gets half that. And while some hybrids are sketchy, many others are superb when it comes to emissions. Toyota in particular has committed itself to higher-mileage, cleaner hybrids.

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Annandale, Va.: The day the HOV exemption goes away, I am selling my hybrid. I used to have a sports car that got 16 mpg. My hybrid gets nearly three times that, but I find it emasculating to drive it. I only bought it to shorten my commute. No incentive means no more hybrid for me, and I start looking again at sports cars. How is that good for the environment? Seems the governemnt would want to do anything it can to keep me driving a hybrid. Am I missing something?

Steven Ginsberg: I'm not sure there's a government program out there that is going to help you with your emasculation issues.

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Alexandria, Va.: Remember folks, ALL cars get 0 MPG when stopped. Let's figure out how to improve traffic flow.

Steven Ginsberg: Now there's something we can all agree on.

Thanks for tuning into and participating in this special chat. We'll address hybrids and everything else transportation again soon...

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