Education

Washington Post education reporter Jay Mathews was online Tuesday, March 14, at 11 a.m. ET to examine the teaching of "critical languages" in schools and other education-related topics.

The United States is in trouble, many foreign policy experts say, because it does not have enough speakers of what have come to be called critical languages: Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Farsi, Hindi and others spoken in countries vital to U.S. interests.

Read More From The Post:

Strides in 'Critical Languages' Remain Small (Post, March 14)

The discussion transcript follows.

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Jay Mathews: Welcome to the world of American frustration with difficult languages. I suspect I will learn much from your questions and observations. As luck would have it, I have taken courses in three of the four languages that were the focus of this morning's story, and in two of them I flamed out pretty early. The third, Chinese, has been a long struggle.

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Bowie, Md.: Is the U.S. in trouble? It's all about supply and demand, and once demand reaches a certain level where the salaries for linquists becomes obscene, then we'll say the US is in trouble. Same for teachers who only work 2/3 of the year but get a whole year's salary.

Jay Mathews: That is an unusual and interesting perspective, and I cannot say you are wrong. The educators I spoke to made it VERY clear that in this country they are at the mercy of student choice, and if you don't find enough students willing to tackle the frustrations of Arabic words whose meanings change with emphasis, or Chinese words whose meanings change with tone, you are not going to get all the linguists you need. I suspect we will handle this the way we usually do when we lack certain skills---hire abroad.

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Fairfax, Va.: In my experience over the years and particularly in my secondary school education, I found teaching techniques and philosophy in schools seriously flawed. The emphasis appeared to be on mastering the skills (verb conjugation, etc.) that we work on in a lifetime in our native language and spending little or no time on learning to speak and/or function in the desired second language. Other countries, particularly some Asian countries seem to do a wonderful job producing students who can function rather well in both their native language and English. What can we do in this country to encourage something similar?

Jay Mathews: Some Asian countries do a good job. Some don't. The Chinese have developed systems for training interpreters that have just the focus you describe---live exercises in real conversation. But note the poor Japanese, who have a required English section on their university admissions tests. They teach it like we teach Latin, and even the top English students have trouble speaking it well.

We could learn a lot from organizations like the Peace Corps who have to get people up to speed fast and heavily emphasize the oral over the reading and writing part of the course.

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Washington, D.C.: Jay,

Our family has decided to relocate from NW DC to Vienna, Va., because we believe our children will realize a greater benefit from the Fairfax County school system than the DC system. We have toured several elementary schools, but are holding off seeing all of them until we buy a house. I feel we can't go too wrong with any of the Vienna elementary schools. My question to you is whether you have any inside information about the difference between Thoreau and Kilmer middle schools? I have heard a lot of negative comments about Kilmer. Since we are basing our moving decision on the quality of all the schools, this is very important to us! Thanks!!

Jay Mathews: My rule is, when moving into certain districts, do exactly what you are doing, find the house you like and be assured that the nearby school will be fine. Fairfax County is one of those districts where this is true. So I would not worry about what you are hearing about those two middle schools. They both have a fine set of teachers, a focus on algebra and foreign languages, and you will be pleased with either.

(Keep in mind another of my rules: there are no good middle schools. I am referring to their reputations, not their real quality. That age group is so difficult that even when you are applying to goldplated schools like Sidwell Friends, or Scarsdale Middle School, you will hear people say the middle school has problems. The schools are actually fine. It is the kids who have problems.)

Good luck. I would love to live in Vienna, so i could get to Swensons every weekend.

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Jay Mathews: Whoops. I meant Nielsens, not Swensons. Getting my ice cream names mixed up. I get the big chocolate cone.

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Silver Spring, Md.: How can we make the teaching of critical languages more equitable, i.e., ensure that students in low-income areas also have the opportunity to learn these languages? Many of these schools struggle to meet NCLB basic standards and view language training as expendable. Arabic, for example, is spoken by people from a diverse range of nations and ethnicities, and the U.S. would benefit by training more students of color to speak the langauge.

Jay Mathews: The way the system works now, student and parent demand are key for foreign languages. There is such a heavy focus on English and math (which I am in favor of in neighborhoods where achievement is low) that extras like foreign languages may get shoved aside, particularly in elementary schools. The best thing to do, if you want a language at your child's school, is to put a notice in the PTA bulletin asking if other parents share your view, and then organize and go see the principal. That will get action much faster than letters to the superintendent, or the school board.

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Washington, D.C.: Public high schools have a hard enough time teaching the basics. There are high school graduates who cannot write properly in English so how can we expect the schools to teach Chinese or Arabic well? At the college level, its about student choice. If studying a critical language is appealing, than students will ask for those courses. I studied Japanese and Korean in college because living in those countries appealed to me. No way would I take Arabic and join the Foriegn Service because I would rather not be posted to the Middle East (as a single woman).

As for lacking foreign policy people with language skills, a good part of the cause of that is not the lack of speakers of a language (native or learned in school) but qualifiations. There are many native speakers of critical languages that cannot pass security clearance checks because of foreign ties and/or relatives. I'm not saying this should/should not change, just that it really limits the pool of candidates in some languages.

Jay Mathews: You make several excellent points. I would quarrel with only one. Most areas have to focus on the basics, but we are blessed here with some of the highest average incomes and parental educations in the world. Two thirds of our high schools make the Newsweek list of the most challenging high schools, which has only 4 percent of all schools nationally. So we have some extra time and resources we might use to increase our foreign language classes.

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Springfield, Va.: What's the status of high school student exchange programs? It might not be in every teen's best interest to spend a year away from home, but there's no better way to master a language (and better understand a culture) than to live somewhere else.

Jay Mathews: They are doing very nicely, and are of several kinds. Although again they cost money. My daughter was in the Amigos program, which led to six weeks in Honduras the summer after her junior year, building latrines in a rural village. I like that program because the kids were required to raise funds for their trips, and the extra they raised went to support kids who could not afford it. Few American kids want to miss a whole year of high school, but there are programs that provide that experience. I noticed one of the NBC reporters covering the Olympics did a story on the Italian family he spent a year with when he was in high school.

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Burke, Va.: Whatever language is being taught, we should start earlier, and make it possible to have the students learn more than one.

Jay Mathews: I agree entirely. That is why I applaud the blossoming of partial immersion programs in schools throughout the area. Kids are taught math and science in the foreign language and English and social studies in English. It works particularly well when there are a lot of kids in the class who speak the foreign language at home.

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Washington, D.C.: What type of jobs and/or do we think will have highest demand for these languages? ... For instance, many people talked about Mandarin as a language with high future demand even a decade ago. A friend has spent 3 years studying the language abroad, and studied it as an undergraduate and MA student (International Studies). Well, after looking for international jobs here in DC, she has ended up working in development, and China is decidedly not a USAID country ... for an area like international development, what languages among those you mention will be most useful in the nearish future? In your opinion, of course.

Jay Mathews: When I lived in China in the 1970s and 1980s, there seemed to be lots of opportunities for Americans who spoke Chinese and worked for multinational corporations. Those opportunities have only grown since China's economy went into overdrive. The demand for Arabic interpreters and translators is going to continue to be huge in the US government. Japanese speakers also have lots of business opportunities, and to a lesser extent, Russian speakers. All of these languages are going to continue to be important to the world for the foreseeable future. I would be far less interested in learning French, except for recreational purposes.

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Annandale, Va.: Not a language question but...What are your thoughts on having a 5 year-old start in a combined K and 1st grade class (which is offered by some Fairfax Co. schools) as opposed to just a pure Kindergarten class without the older kids?

Jay Mathews: I think it depends entirely on the quality of the teacher, and even if you don't know the teacher well, since it is Fairfax County I think you can assume you will get somebody good. My view is that the combined class would be even better for the kindergartners than the regular class, since they will have the excitement of seeing first grade work, and maybe doing some of it.

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Washington, D.C.: The waiting list for Oyster Bilingual school in NW DC is so long! We join the lottery for an out-of-boundary slot every year, but never get close to getting in. Why aren't there more quality bilingual public schools?

Jay Mathews: You are in DC. That district has a lot of other flaws and deficiencies that take priority. If that kind of program is very important to you, your options are to look for private schools, or move to the suburbs.

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Raleigh, N.C.: Hi Jay -

I don't have a question so much as a comment. I think Americans live in a land of isolated delusion regarding what they need to understand about the larger world. In landlocked European countries, people are fluent in 3,4 5 languages of necessity - and many of them come here and learn English!! Europeans - including the UK, here - also seem much betyter informed regarding world politics and socio-economic issues, not to mention world history.

Jay Mathews: I am not sure if Europeans are any smarter than we are about the world, despite their linguistic skills. I have seen a lot of dumb things said by leading European commentators. But your point is still a good one. The world gets smaller each year. We are blessed to be speaking what has become the most universal language of this century, but we would do much better for ourselves and our country if we learned at least one foreign language well.

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Washington, D.C.: Do you know if the linguists that were/are kicked out of the military for being gay being used in other capacities that can take advantage of their knowledge?

Jay Mathews: This being America, people with skills in short supply have no trouble finding jobs. I am sure they are all doing very well professionally. It was dumb of the military to kick them out. I was a soldier in Vietnam, and am rather sure that there were plenty of gay persons there in my big barracks, but it was never a problem.

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Newton, Mass.: Jay, Inconsistant funding has been a problem, as has parent resistance. My son's elementary school started a Chinese world language program, where the Chinese ESL teacher spent a few hours a week with the other classes to teach Chinese language and culture. it was funded by a Fed start-up grant. Some parents objected - other schools had a Spanish program, and they thought their children would be behind when they took High School Spanish. But even Newton has budget issues, and when the start-up funding ran out, they entire program was dropped. Fortunately for my son, we were able to persuade the school to start a middle school and then high-school Chinese language program.

Jay Mathews: Congratulations on your energy and persistence. You prove again the power of parental involvement in this issue. If that was a really good partial immersion Spanish program, you don't want to neglect it, but most elementary Spanish programs are not very good.

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Newark, Del.: Ni Hao, I am studying chinese at the University of Delaware, and I am interested in the immersion programs. Do you know of a website or two that can give me some quality information on those programs?

Jay Mathews: I just googled "foreign language partial immersion" and found a lot of stuff. You should try that.

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Reston, Va.: My daughter, a sophomore in high school, is taking spanish 3 and doesn't plan to take any more foreign language after this year. Her counselor says colleges like to see four years of a language, but my daughter argues that for all the time she's spent, she can barely converse in spanish--that mostly she spends her time memorizing vocabulary ... Do you recommend taking a 4th year, or let her find another elective she'll enjoy more?

Jay Mathews: It depends on what kind of college she is shooting for and what she wants to take in college. If she has her heart set on one of the very selective brand name schools, she should grit her teeth and take the fourth year, particularly if it is an AP or IB spanish course. The selective colleges will be put off by a student who dropped Spanish at that point, unless she substitutes a hot language like Arabic or Chinese and says she wants to study that language in college. That explanation will excite the admissions folk. It is all about how to market yourself and your choices. If she is not planning on going to a very selective school and does not plan to pursue a degree in something for which Spanish would be an asset, it is not a problem, as long as she keeps her grades up in whatever courses she is taking.

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Washington, D.C.: I took five years of high school French and larned very little. I told my daughter that the only way she would learn to speak French would be to live in France for a year. She spent all of 11th grade in France as an exchange student and now speaks French like a Parisian. For students who are truly interested in learning another language, the exchange student program is the only way to go. And for those who say they don't want to miss a year of high school ... it didn't hurt my daughter a bit. A few months after she got back from France she applied to William and Mary. They accepted her and let her drop out of high school to start at W&M in January. The year in France was worth more than the high school diploma.

Jay Mathews: You are absolutely right for kids who really want to make a commitment to the language, and don't have any other very strong priorities. My college daughter, now doing her junior year spring semester in Chile, was a good Spanish student and is now a Spanish major, and would have benefitted from a full year in Latin America in high school. But that would have meant missing a season on a softball team where she was one of the key players, and that was for her too much of a sacrifice.

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Washington, D.C.: It isn't supply and demand or going abroad when we run out of people to do the jobs. These days it's a matter of paying people as little as we can get away with or refusing to allow them to be the professionals they are--just ask a nurse or an IT professional whose job has gone to an Irish or South Asian who will work for less.

Jay Mathews: You are quite right. Although the presence of those immigrant nurses in the country is also a supply and demand issue. They raise the supply and thus reduce the demand.

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San Bernardino, Calif.: I find it apalling that we can not apply some of the recent advances in the acquisition of language and the technology that can facilitate and expedite the process more effectively. Students in Europe speak at least two or more languages proficiently and many of our undergraduate students find it difficult to express their ideas in clear reasoned form much less using correct grammar. This deficiency does not bode well in terms of their ability to compete for choice career tracks in the future. Our priorities need to be realigned, English may be the preferred form of communication in business settings but that may not be the case ten years from now. We need to internationalize our students learning experince so they can see that a different world exists a few miles past our borders and people speak in different languages that have ideas which our language does not even consider. I am bilingual and regret not being pushed to become a polyglot so I could converse as easily in Chinese as in French, Zapotec or Russian. It's clear that mulitlingual and multicultural competancies give a person a better chance in life it also allows one to use our brains more effectively and grasp ideas more effectively. Put students in the right environment and they will adapt and learn much quicker than we expect. Gracias por escuchar mi opinion.

Jay Mathews: You are right. We have not worked very hard on improving language instruction, and should do so. But I cannot imagine anything short of a horrible catastrophe, like an asteroid hitting Kansas City, that would knock English off of its perch as the leading international language in ten years.

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Washington, D.C.: Ni hao, Jay - I'm an adult taking beginning chinese at the USDA grad school, for work and for fun. The class is packed, there were 3 times as many as the class limit on the waiting list. I'v gotta say I get annoyed when politicians and others talk about extra funding for engineering, math and science and no mention of critical languages or other truly relevant humanities areas. What is the Dept of Ed really doing to support language teaching beyond lip service?

Jay Mathews: Not much. As I said, their priorities are elsewhere. There is $114 million in this new Bush proposal for helping critical language instruction, and some of that may help, but it is a relatively modest effort in dollar terms, considering the need.

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Monterey, Calif.: How can it be that we have spent nearly a half-trillion dollars on Iraq and have yet to train one Arabic-English interpreter to the level of a Master's degree in the subject? We hire people who speak both languages, let them learn on the job, and hope they are doing well. This is like hiring someone who knows math and physics and expecting them to be engineers. It is haphazard at best. Long-term commitment to language skills is the bedrock. A twenty-year program needs to be in place to solve the problem.

Jay Mathews: So true. Is this message coming from the famous language school in one of my favorite California cities? I am not sure how we are going to get such a program going, however. We are a federalized, localized education system, and student choice rules in foreign language programs.

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Princeton, W.Va.: Mr. Matthews. I am a member of the Board of Education here in Mercer County W.Va. AS a board, we all agree that we need to begin teaching foreign language in kindergarten, and do it throughout the 12 years of school. It will work. The problem is, with NCLB and state requirements, limited funding and time, we have neither the resources, nor the time to implement the program. If the state and/or federal government were to fund such a program, we would find the time -- but it is a complicated issue. My question -- if many in educatino realize the need for America to be multilingual, and in critical languages, tehn why doesn't the government ante up and help local school districts pay for the programs? If we have the money, we will find a way.

Jay Mathews: The federal government is now spending about 30 percent more on public education than it did five years ago, but that money is going for math and reading and writing, which I think both you and I would agree takes precedent over foreign languages for the many low income kids who are not getting enough support. I congratulate districts like yours who want to make this a priority, but i think realistically you are going to have to find ways to do it on yr own.

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Fairfax, Va.: Hi,

This region has a large number of people who are originally from another country but have made the US their home and consider themselves American. Since they are fluent in both their native tongue (specifically the ones you mention and also Urdu and Farsi), why can't these people be leveraged to provide the services we need in these languages. These citizens should be encouraged to join the Foreign Service and serve the US with the abilities they possess. I feel that no matter how fluent you may be, a native speaker has a grasp on the subtleties and nuances that one can only get by being completely immersed in a language environment.

Could the reason why we do not consider these valuable citizens of ours for these positions because we feel they are not "American" enough?

Jay Mathews: I think that is an excellent idea, altho as another reader said, our security rules may get in the way of some of those people working for the government.

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Munich, Germany: Coming from a a German speaking family, in my early youth, I was sent to a German School every Saturday (which I intensely hated), where we were taught German with an emphasis on grammar. This is probably why I'm living in Munich now. As university came along, I toyed with the idea of studying Asian languages, before deciding on a technical/engineering direction.

My question is, do you think that spoken skills are enough when considering more complex written languages like Chinese are Arabic?

My personal opinion is that it would be tough to approach a level of competence in a language without some kind of knowledge or training in grammar, and that it would be difficult to learn the grammar without the written language.

Jay Mathews: You have to get the whole package, spoken and written. Programs like the Peace Corps can emphasize just the spoken because they are training short timers who will probably not use the language again. But the full program is much better.

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Washington, D.C.: Jay, on your question about gay linguists I think there is more to be discussed. Here's my experience: I studied linguistics in college and learned a slew of languages. On 9/11 I started studying Arabic, which led me to move to DC since jobs were plentiful (and the IT world was bottoming out.)

When I arrived here I was interviewed by one agency, the NSA. I took several langauge exams and scored rather well on them - especially the lang. proficiency test, which indicated I could not only fare well in Arabic, but in Farsi, Pashto, Urdu, Uighur... you name it, I could probably study it. It's my top marketable skill.

However, my clearance was interrupted when it was revealed I had a years-old history of marijuana usage in college (oh, horrors. We didn't even get around to discussing that I'm gay; I assume I'd just get fired for that later instead of earlier.)

Well, so much for me serving my country. I have found a job related to other skills here in DC, but not related to the one that pushed me to move here. Sometimes the bureaucracy doesn't work - AT ALL.

Jay Mathews: Sigh. That is such a common story. One hopes the govt's desperate need for people like you will help waive dumb rules like that.

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Fairfax, Va.: In the US, most students take a foreign language in high school. Typically it has been French or Spanish. How does this compare with the European countries - do the high school students select a language (say, English)?

Jay Mathews: I think English instruction is nearly universal in most European countries, and those students will often choose other languages as well.

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Arlington, Va.: I had a ringside seat to this issue as a member of a parent advisory group for a couple of years. This is the dance we constantly went through. We recommended expanding the number of languages offered to include these strategic languages. The response from the school administration was consistent, they could not justify the expense to create these programs in the absence of a tangible public demand for them. One way they gauged potential demand was to look at the percentage of the county demographics who were Arabic, Farsi, you name it, speakers. So the fact that these languages are designated as strategic hardly figured into the equation. Viva espanol!

Jay Mathews: You got it. You have to have all the families who want it sign a petition before they will take the risk.

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Falls Church, Va.: To the person school shopping in Fairfax, NOT all schools are good; some have horrendous problems. I made that mistake when I moved from Alexandria to Fairfax. The local elementary principal gave me a charming speech about the merits of her school and they were flat out lies. Ultimately, I was fortunate enough to have my son transferred to a GT center elsewhere. Look online at the school's scores; visit some of their PTA meetings. Despite Jay's rose-colored view, everything and everyone are not equal.

Jay Mathews: Please tell me more about what you found. Your complaint is EXTREMELY rare, the first such I have heard from a Fairfax County parent in five or six years. my email address is mathewsj@washpost.com. Tell me more. I don't need to quote you or even know your name, but i would like to hear yr story.

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Washington, D.C.: During the campaign, when Bush was confronted with his lack of travel to foreign countries, Bush turned it into evidence of his all-Americanism -- it was better that he was not particularly interested in other cultures, and his opponent's fascination with them was suspect.

Isn't Bush's attitude part of the problem? Doesn't it encourgage young people to turn away from studying language?

Isn't this a valid matter for reporters to put to Bush?

Jay Mathews: Many Americans tend to be proud of their insularity. That national trait goes back a long way.

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Moscow, Russia: I'm not sure I've got a question, just a set of circumstances that I'd like to know more about. I'm a native born American who started studying Russian in college. I got to be pretty good at the language by living in Russia for several years. When I returned I was unemployable in government jobs (which are a big part of the Washington employment market). I was denied a security clearance specifically because of my experience abroad. I now advise people studying foreign languages to be careful about coordinating their experience abroad with their career goals, since they might not be compatible. That can't be helping matters much. The end of the story was that I got frustrated in Washington, and returned to Moscow, where I've been happy ever since.

Jay Mathews: What a very useful message. Thank you.

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Washington, D.C.: Critical language speakers are the end outcome. What about what comes before that? Americans who don't feel the need to know anything else about anyone or anywhere else until a plane flies into a building. The mindset in this country is English first and English only (e.g. Americans who travel to other non-English speaking countries and want to know if anyone will speak English once they get there.) That mindset needs to be addressed first. That's in addition to the xenophobia present in this society.

Jay Mathews: yup. you got it right.

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Clifton, Va.: I really enjoyed the article on more kids taking "vocational" education. There remains a huge demand in the trades such as pipefitting, plumbing, etc.

What resources are available for high school kids wondering what the "market" is for various jobs and careers? Do the developers of community college curricula look at what jobs are in demand? This could factor in the need to speak various languages, too.

Jay Mathews: Talking to our community college teachers is a great idea. many are adjuncts who work in that trade.

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Arlington, Va.: I fluently speak one of the languages that is consistently listed as strategic, as well as having an MA and PhD. By my count have applied for 256 government jobs the last 4 years relevant to my linguistic and area studies skills. Not so much as a nibble. So please don't let anyone give the impression that your ticket is written by studying foreign languages.

Jay Mathews: Please email me at mathewsj@washpost.com if you can. I want to hear more about this. It might be a story. It does not make sense.

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Start early, start often: You know what? I don't think 5-year-olds understand that Japanese or Arabic or Chinese are "difficult." They think they are fun. Start them early before they get expectations set. More importantly, early is better because that's when brain plasticity is highest and learning ANYTHING is easiest.

Jay Mathews: Very true. I wish I had started Chinese at five.

Thanks very much for all the great questions. You see my email address in my previous response. If you have something I should know, send me a message. And if you think i can help you, email me.

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