Iraq: Documentary About Abu Ghraib

"Big Storm: The Lynndie England Story"

Col. Janis Karpinski , the former brigadier general who was demoted in the aftermath of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner scandal, was online Friday, March 17, at Noon ET to discuss the new documentary, "Big Storm: The Lynndie England Story," and other current news (AP, March 17)about what happened at Abu Ghraib.

Sundance Channel/"Big Storm: The Lynndie England Story"

Karpinski previously appeared on Live Online on April 14, 2004.

A transcript follows.

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Washington, D.C.: What does this documentary have to say about Abu Ghraib and Lynndie England and yourself?

Janis Karpinski: The documentary focuses on Lynndie England because her story and her personally ... she was an unfortunate pawn in all of this ... she was not an MP and she was used by a person, Sgt. Grainer, for him to be able to follow the orders he was being given and it's a tragedy. So it talks about how she worked at Abu Ghraib -- she was in administration there -- and was on several occasions, commended for her good work. She was not a decision maker; she was not a leader and people need to know the details of Lynndie England to understand more than what the pictures would say about her.

I speak about my role there as the commander and I give my view on the Lynndie England situation and I think the real role I bring into the documentary ... is expertise and the truth from my level.

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Annandale, Va.: Is this new documentary balanced or does it have a political agenda? Did England cooperate? Does it have any Bush administration people in it?

Janis Karpinski: Lynndie England did cooperate. It is balanced but it is important to recognize this documentary was done by a Dutch company and the reason it's important is they don't have a dog in the fight, a political fight, so the politics is removed from it. To my recollection there are no Bush administration officials in the documentary.

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Stockholm, Sweden: I wonder if you think that the United States government was aware about the abusing that took place in Abu Ghraib? And if so, do you think that you have been used as a scapegoat?

Janis Karpinski: Yes to both questions. My response to the first part would be the memorandum of 2002, they call it the Alberto Gonzales memorandum, was discussed at the highest levels of government and approved. So when you have this initial departure from the Geneva Conventions it ultimately leads to the activities depicted in those photographs and worse. If not for the photographs they wouldn't have had a purpose for making me a scapegoat.

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Brooklyn, N.Y.: Hi Janis --

Can you tell us about newly released military documents that seem to confirm your assertions that the prisoner abuse was sanctioned by higher-ups?

Thanks

Janis Karpinski: The Mora documents reveal more specifics and detail the aggressive techniques being used in interrogation at GITMO as early as January of 2003. These Mora documents make reference to the Gonzales memorandum and the plan of operation from Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller (commander of Guantanamo).

So absolutely, these new documents provide greater insight and more importantly, reveal the highest levels of our government being intimately involved.

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New York, N.Y.: Looking back on that scandal it seems to me that there was a major breakdown in discipline at all levels, Lts, Capts, Majs, etc. ... How come no one under your command inspected these soldiers or reported problems to you and why is it that you did not expect more from the officers and soldiers under your command?

Janis Karpinski: I had great expectations for all of my soldiers and commanders and they lived up to and exceeded those expectations. The chain of command for these soldiers reported to me on a regular basis and never reported any infractions or questionable instructions whatsoever. And why they didn't is more of an appropriate question for them because I've never had any conversations with them for them to explain.

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Bethesda, Md.: If I recall correctly, during your appearance on the Diane Rehm Show you spoke of American MPs raping Iraqi women in Abu Ghraib as other MPs stood watch. Has this particular aspect of the abuses at the prison been officially reported to those in the Pentagon -- who it appears were actually in charge of covering all this up? If so, is there any evidence that the incident(s) were ever investigated?

Janis Karpinski: They were not military police soldiers doing that -- they were military intelligence soldiers. When those activities were reported to their commander their commander chose to give each one of them an administrative letter of reprimand and sent them back to their unit at Ft. Bragg. The case was considered closed and to my knowledge no further action was ever taken.

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Oakton, Va.: Your inability, first and foremost, to accept responsibility for what happened at Abu Ghraib was disappointing. It was not your fault, but it was on your watch.

It reminded me of the lesser side of the Army -- that of politics and passing the buck. The Army is not some corporate ladder, it is (or should be): Duty, Honor, and Country.

Having had time to reflect, do you regret how you handled the situation?

Janis Karpinski: This is a difficult answer to give. No, I have no regrets as to how I responded to the initial and subsequent inquiries. These activities did not, did not, take place on my watch.

The soldiers were assigned to a military police company subordinate to one of my battalions but they were working under the command of the military intelligence at the time the photographs were taken. By the way, this arrangement was the same arrangement in place at GITMO when the military police were first used to set the conditions for effective interrogation operations.

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Woodbridge, Va.: Good Afternoon,

What do you think about Col. Pappas' claim at a recent hearing in which he testified that he alone was responsible for dogs being used on prisoners? Do you think he's falling on the sword for others?

Thanks and keep getting the truth out there!

Janis Karpinski: I believe Col. Pappas was given immunity from prosecution so he is finally able to tell the truth without implicating himself and because he is still in the regular Army on active duty, it is very likely he is still covering up for more senior people who gave him orders and instructions to do many of the things we saw in the photographs, however his testimony is certainly a giant leap of getting a clearer picture of responsibility for all of this.

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Ottawa, Canada: To what extent do you believe that the abuses at Abu Ghraib led to a strengthening of the insurgency in Iraq?

Janis Karpinski: I think it's the abuses and the failure of the secretary of defense or the administration to stand up and be held accountable for the decisions that lead to the abuses, has given the insurgency an additional reason to be more determined but there would've been an insurgency anyway, long before the photographs. The insurgency was making its mark and they were becoming better each and every day.

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Washington, D.C.: Have you been back to Iraq? What are doing now? Are you still in the Army Reserves?

Janis Karpinski: I'm retired from the Army. I have not been back to Iraq but I've been to the Middle East and I am continuing to speak out about what the situation was like in Iraq, why, in my opinion it hasn't gotten better and continue to call for an independent committee to investigate Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Bagram in Afghanistan and I will continue to be the voice of the soldiers that are in prison serving sentences for following orders and being held fully accountable for the actions that were designed and implemented by others.

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Washington, D.C.: Hi - thanks for chatting online .Can you clarify the chain of command and your place in it?

You state that soldiers were following orders from higher up, and "The chain of command for these soldiers reported to me on a regular basis and never reported any infractions or questionable instructions whatsoever."

Who was in charge? Who did give the orders/instructions? Just wanting a clearer picture of who's involved?

Janis Karpinski: Good questions. At the time these photographs were taken the prison was under the control of the commander of the military intelligence brigade. He was getting his orders form Lt. Gen. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, and absurdly, his intelligence officer was also giving orders on how to continue to obtain information from interrogations and Maj. Gen. Miller, who was not even assigned to Iraq, continued to give instructions to the commander on how to be most effective in interrogation operations. So he, the MI brigade commander (Col. Pappas), had three bosses and most importantly, he didn't work for me, ever.

I can assure you orders for interrogations never came from me.

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New York, N.Y.: Did the contractors wear military uniforms in the prison, and did they create a "mystic" that implied they were with Military Intelligence for the soldiers?

Did the contractors take the photos or order that photos be taken?

Have you seen the videos that were reportedly made?

Was this torture?

Janis Karpinski: Some of the contractors wore components of the military uniform (for example, they might wear the pants and a different colored T-shirt) and there were some occasions when military interrogators wore civilian clothes to make the prisoner think that they were with the CIA or the FBI. The contractors are the individuals who gave the orders to the soldiers to take the photographs and they are the ones who had the experience at GITMO and brought these techniques with them when they were sent to Iraq and they are also the people who provided the cameras to take these pictures.

No, I have not seen the videos. I've been told that the videos were not videotapes of prisoner abuse but they were videotapes of soldiers misbehaving with other soldiers.

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Virginia: You wrote a book. Are you planning to write another one? Or looking for a job?

Janis Karpinski: I did write a book. I am working on a second idea talking about the corruption amongst the civilian contractors in Iraq and my schedule if full right now and my job is to continue to tell the truth and get it out there.

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Washington, D.C.: What the best way to prevent future abuses--to adhere to Geneva Conventions standards, the Army Field Interrogation manual, or something else entirely?

Thank you.

Janis Karpinski: The Army Field Investigation Manual is not worth the paper it is written on. We prevent this from ever happening again by getting leaders at every level the appropriate training and getting the situtation back in place where military leaders are not afraid to object or speak out against new policies for fear of losing their own jobs and positions. And until we get to the point where leaders are not afraid to openly disagree, we can't discuss who we prevent this from ever happening again.

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Alexandria, Va.: Col. Karpinski,When I served in the Army I was always told I was responsible for all my unit did or failed to do. I was also told I could delegate authority but not responsibility. It seems to me no one in England's chain of command has ever heard of these truths. Has the Army changed that much in the last 15 years. Hasn't her entire chain of command some responsibility for what happened in that jail .Thanks much

Janis Karpinski: Absolutely. The Army has changed more dramatically in the last three years than in the last 20 years.

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Cardiff, U.K.: Janis, did you feel that because most soldiers in Iraq in 2003 believed that there was a direct link between Iraq and the 9-11 tragedy, thanks to the pre-war propaganda, that it became easier for them to brutalize the Iraqi prisoners when asked to do so? If so, is not that a further indictment of those who orchestrated the push for war on a false premise?

Janis Karpinski: Yes. Soldiers believed -- because they were told -- there was direct connection between Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and the events on 9/11 and that was their motivation. And with that mindset they were more determined and when they were given very veiled instruction to do whatever it takes to do to get the information they just believed that there were no limits.

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Janis Karpinski: When you recall the pictures from 9/11, the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, and you tell soldiers that not only Osama bin Laden but Saddam Hussein are involved in this and can you imagine these people with a weapon of mass destruction, you have created a lethal cocktail of motivation for soldiers to so whatever they needed to do.

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New York, N.Y.: Because of your outspokenness, has anyone in the Armed Forces, the Dept of Defense or the Bush Administration tried to silence you or intimidate you? Have you been punished for speaking out in any way, e.g., a cancellation of your pension?

Janis Karpinski: I can tell you that before my request for retirement was approved, every time I spoke out publicly, there was some type of an attempt to silence me by the Pentagon or by the chief of the Army Reserves. Nobody in my chain of command has ever confronted me face to face in any of this; it was a form letter reminding me of my responsibilities to the Army or it was a threatening phone call from somebody claiming to be from the Pentagon warning me about speaking out, but once I was allowed to retire they had no authority to restrict me at all. It will not affect my pension because I don't draw any retirement pay until I'm 60 years old.

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washingtonpost.com: This concludes our discussion with Janis Karpinski. Thank you for joining us.

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