Sally Quinn on Author Karen Armstrong

Once Rejecting Religion, Armstrong Now Sees It as a Guidepost

The Post's Sally Quinn was online Wednesday, March 29, at noon ET to discuss her Wednesday Style section article about author Karen Armstrong and Armstrong's new book, "The Great Transformation: The Beginning of Our Religious Traditions."

From The Post:

"After she left the convent, Karen Armstrong called herself an atheist. 'I used to hate religion," she says. "I loathed it in my angry days.'

"Seventeen books later, she is recognized as one of the great religious historians, and she has reconsidered her label. She regards herself to be deeply religious but with no denomination. 'Sometimes I call myself a freelance,' she says in her melodious English accent. 'I can't see any one of the great religions as superior to others. . . . I'm seeking to make sense of life, looking for its meaning and how we can have a better humanity.'"

Read More: A Historian's Faithful Account (Post, March 29)

The transcript follows.

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Sally Quinn: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining me. I hope you enjoyed the piece about Karen Armstrong. She is one of the most inspiring writers I know and so thoughtful on the issue of religion. I look forward to your questions.

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Chantilly, Va.: Ms. Quinn:

It is refreshing that The Post is doing stories on some of the major religious writers -- Bart Ehrman a few weeks ago, now Karen Armstrong. Too often the media focuses on the non-thinkers and marketers like Pat Robertson. I am hoping that Post readers will become curious and start reading the books of more thoughtful and tolerant scholars. It was enlightening to hear where she is on her personal journey.

Dare we hope that you or someone else will interview Elaine Pagels at Princeton? (I've read all her books and they are wonderful. She has a great take on the religious politics of the first century.)

And before the DaVinci Code movie comes out, how about someone explaining what's correct and incorrect about the book/movie? Bart Ehrman, coincidentally, has a short book on the subject.

Finally, it would be great if someone interviewed a religious scholar on the topic of homosexuality, especially before the Virginia constitutional amendment election. As you may know, though many people believe homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, in the words of Ira Gershwin, "It ain't necessarily so." (Humorous word alert -- one of the scholarly debates is about the meaning of the Greek word arsenokoitai.)

washingtonpost.com: A Historian's Faithful Account (Post, March 29)

The Book of Bart (Post, March 5)

Sally Quinn: Actually Elaine Pagels is next on my list though she doesn't know it yet. What I think is particularly refreshing about Karen Armstrong's view is the idea that The important this is not what you believe but how you behave. This seems to me to be seminal in terms of religious thought. So many of the problems we have today are because people don't respect the beliefs of others. My feeling is, whatever helps you make it through the night.

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Georgetown, Washington, D.C.: I heard Terry Gross interview Karen Armstrong when Battle for God came out, but never read anything she wrote until 9/11. Since then, I have read everything and learned a lot about religion - and history. I really appreciate her non-polemical style. Please tell me that she will have a book signing in Washington.

Sally Quinn: She is having two book signings, one I believe on Sunday at 2pm at Borders in Tysons Corner and the other at Politics and Prose Monday night at 7pm. I agree with you that she is one of the most enlightened thinkers on the subject today. She is so rational and open minded about religion and has so much historical knowledge to back up her views. She is also very respectful of others. This is her point in this book, "The Great Transformation" which is about the cour cultures during the Axial Age which developed their own religions because of all the violence and turmoil in their worlds. It's so amazing, as she says, that with almost no contact with each other, that these cultures all came up with basically the same idea. The Golden Rule.

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Washington, D.C.: While reporting & writing, was there anything that particularly surprised you about the author? Her work? Her Life? Was she what you expected? Thanks for the insights.

Sally Quinn: I had met Karen once before a year ago so I wasn't surprised by her. I think the thing that struck me the most is how open minded she is and how compassionate she is toward all cultures and all religions. She talks a lot about compassion and I think that may ultimately be her religion. Concern for others or jian ai. She really is the embodiment of her beliefs. She also has grown and changed a lot as she continues her research and writing and I admire that a lot. She doesn't get stuck in a point of view or a belief but is constantly seeking new ways to look at things.

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Arlington, Va.: Hi Ms. Quinn, what made you decide to choose Karen Armstrong as a subject to write about? Thanks very much.

Sally Quinn: I am currently working on a book about religion in Washington. It is a subject that has intrigued me most of my life. I was brought up by an Episcopalian father and Presbyterian mother in nondenominational Army chapels all over the world and never really had much religious experience. Like Karen Armstrong, until recently I considered myself an atheist. It was only after I embarked on writing this book and done a lot of reading and studying that I have rejected that word. I now consider myself quite religious and spiritual although that sounds like a terrible cliche. Karen calls her self a freelancer. I was looking for something. I remember years ago seeing "How to Succeed in Business without Really Trying with Robert Morse. On the way to a job interview, he is trying to pump himself up and sings to himself in the mirror, "I Believe in You." The line I liked was "you have the cool, clear eyes of a seeker of wisdom and truth. So that's what I've decided I am. A seeker of wisdom and truth. I could do worse.

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Rockville, Md.: I read your column today on Karen Armstrong, which was nicely written. However, I was surprised to hear that this is a person of some renown. I read a lot, 2 or 3 books a week, on many subjects (ok, not sports) and I consider myself to be fairly religious, but I have never heard of her before. Also, as a lifelong Catholic, I thought she sounded a bit overwrought when describing her emotions at seeing Jesus on the cross. Come on now, that is hardly the only image of Jesus that is out there. If she got overly focused on that, she probably should never have been let into the convent! Really, she seemed like a well-intentioned writer, but a bit new agish. Also, her comments about Islam being a religion of peace for 1,500 would probably be strongly contradicted by most Greeks, who have had a very different experience with the followers of Islam over the past 1,500 years. Did Ms. Armstrong explain why North Africa, which was Christian for hundreds of years, is no longer and pretty much hasn't been since that "peaceful" religion moved in - and not be peaceful mean! For a religious historian, she needs to learn a bit more history!

Sally Quinn: We didn't talk a great deal about Islam but you should read her book on the subject. As I mentioned she has written 17 books. You should also read "A Spiral Staircase" about her life in the convent and her reasons fro leaving. She was only 17 when she entered and 24 when she left. When she was describing her feelings about Jesus, she was talking about her childhood reactions to him. But what is important is that she was telling the truth about her feelings. She wasn't adhering to any specific view. That is what I like about her. She is respectful of other's feelings and views. She is quite funny about Catholics in England. She says they feel persecuted and are very sensitive to criticism because they are viewed by many secular British as a bit extravagant and vulgar with all of the "smells and bells". She says she gets a lot of hate mail from Catholics because they are so sensitive and view anyone who has had a bad experience like she did and writes about it as a traitor.

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Washington, D.C.: In the article, you quote Armstrong talking about how the U.S. is so much more religious than Europe. That's a really interesting observation and one that I'd like to hear more about. Has anyone speculated why?

Sally Quinn: This morning in the Washington Post there was a statistic about how 85% of Americans are Christians. Karen Armstrong says she is constantly surprised at how vibrant our religious tradition are. I've talked to many British Ambassadors in Washington who are constantly astonished about how much religion plays a part in our political life. As Armstrong says, Europe is endearingly old fashioned in its secularism. The Europeans have fallen away from religion and the church while the rest of the world is seemingly more religious. I don't know how to explain it.

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Washington, D.C.: Have you read any other of Armstrong's books? If so, what are your recommendations for where to start? Also, any idea what she plans to tackle next?

Sally Quinn: I think think I would start with The Spiral Staircase which will give you an idea of who she is and how she came to her beliefs. Then I would read "The History of God." That's an amazing book. It's riveting and so comprehensive. I think then I would read this latest book "The Great Transformation" . She has a tiny book which is really good reading about Myths which came out this winter. And if you're interested "Islam" is also really interesting. Frankly I'd recommend them all. I know I can't put them down. Her next book is about Jesus .

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Washington, D.C.: Ms. Quinn, what's your next project coming up?

Sally Quinn: I just mentioned that I'm writing a book on religion in Washington. But that's gong to take at least a year. I never know what I'm going to do for the Post next. Two weeks ago I had a piece on Homeland Security. This is one of my pig ongoing projects. How unprepared we are for a terrorist attack. Last week I did a piece for Style on advice to Laura Bush about how to help her husband. This week it's religion. It just depends on what I find interesting at the moment.

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washingtonpost.com: Hell on Wheels (Post, March 12)

 From Her Lips to His Ear (Post, March 24)

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Silver Spring, Md.: Sally, it seems like you're writing (and chatting) a lot lately. Are you returning to a somewhat more regular schedule with The Post?

Sally Quinn: I was working on my book there for a while. My editor, Mary Hadar, says I'm having a little spurt. I write when I get turned on to something. Also I just started doing these on line chats and I really like doing that.

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Fairfax, Va.: I am glad that you are focusing on serious religious discussion. Too many newspapers lack writers who can write respectfully and knowledgeably about religion. As someone else noted above, too much attention is given to dogmatic people such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc. I also think much attention is paid to vaguely "spiritual" new agey people like, well, Karen Armstrong.

There are great religious thinkers out there who are neither vague nor extremist. Many write for FIrst Things journal--Jewish, Catholic, Lutheran, etc. They also have interesting and intelligent viewpoints which do not show up in the media. It is a pity and a loss.

Sally Quinn: I agree with you that newspapers don't write enough about serious religious issues. I know the Washington Post is making a major effort to do a lot more comprehensive coverage of religion and people's beliefs. I'm interested that you would call Karen Armstrong's beliefs new agey. Her books are so straightforward and concrete in their facts. Actually her views are old agey. Her views are more those of the Axial Agers who formulated their beliefs between 900 BCE and 200. It was then that people began to think that their multiple Gods weren't working and that they needed to formulate another set of beliefs to respond to the violence and chaos of their lives. As she points out it was astonishing that four cultures would come to the same set of beliefs independently. Most of them felt that the only thing that would work was to have concern for others, be respectful of others, have compassion for others. As I said at the beginning of this chat, it was basically "The Golden Rule" which was first posited by Confucius. The Axial Agers believed that the world was full of suffering, or as the Indians called it dukkha and that everyone had to find a way to deal with it personally. They were not condemning of the beliefs of others. It wasn't about what you believed as much as how you behaved. Her view is that given the conditions in our world today, which mirror those of the Axial Age, we could take a lesson from them and begin to respect others and honor their beliefs as well as ours. I don't see what is new agey about that.

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Alexandria, Va.: My impression of Karen Armstrong is that she dislikes Christianity, although that might be based on books written in her atheistic stage. I didn't know she was in a new phase.

I agree with a previous poster about Islam being viewed as a peaceful religion. In some ways, it no doubt is. However, it certainly spread itself by the sword. Also, having lived for several years in Saudi Arabia, I must say that I found no tolerance there.

Sally Quinn: I don't think Karen dislikes Christianity at all. I think she is very respectful of it. I think what she doesn't like about some Christians is their intolerance toward others. Her views of Jesus were formed as a child when she said she found him "scary". She says that she used to call herself an atheist but she has definitely been out of that phase for a long time and now calls herself very religious. It's what her whole life is about.

As for Islam, I don't think she is talking about the practice in some parts of the world of modern day Islam but about what the prophet Mohammed believed and what is in the Koran.

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Virginia: What religion is Karen Armstrong? Catholic, Jewish, Protestants???

Sally Quinn: I don't think she would identify herself with any religion at all now. I asked her about rituals and she said that her favorite ritual when she was in the Convent was the singing of Gregorian chants. She said that when she was chanting she felt very spiritual. She feels that religious rituals are very important. Interestingly, she says the times she feels most religious are when she is in her study working on her books on religion. You should see her face when she describes what it is like. "I long for it. I long for it," she says with such passion. She says that when she is studying religion and researching it that she opens up to so many new ideas and feelings and beliefs. She is very much of the idea that religion is something that you need to do in silence. She believes silence is deeply important in all of our lives. That we live in such a noisy world that we need to stop and just let things happen. Let it grow. She says that when we stop and reflect things begin to happen and sometimes we get the essence of God when we are just quiet. As you know, she doesn't define God. God is very personal she says and each one of us must have our own idea of what God is to us.

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Charlotte, N.C.: Secularism in Europe: I'm not a historian, but it seems to me that having state churches, which is the norm in Europe, certainly stifles religious expression. The vibrancy of American religion is, I think, due to its separation from the state, so that it has to work for its bread. Just a thought.

Sally Quinn: I think you're right bout that. I just had a thought that perhaps religion is so vibrant here is because of the melting pot aspect to our society. WE have so many cultures here in the US and they all bring something new to their religious experiences. So those who are religious or who have any beliefs have so much to choose from. I think the Catholic and Protestant churches have become very stagnant. Armstrong thinks that one of the reasons the Europeans don't like the Muslims is because they are religious. Americans like the fact that they are religious. They just don't like the form it takes.

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14th and U Streets, N.W., Washington, D.C.: I guess I will have to read Armstrong's new book to see what she says about Axial Age religions and women. I read her book on Buddha and heard her speak about it several years ago. I believe I heard her say that one thing the Axial Age religions had in common was low standing for women in public and private life. If we are in for a new period of religiosity in response to the current sorry state of the world, must it follow that women are diminished? Thanks for a wonderful article, BTW. (PS: I still have fond memories of your book "We're Going to Make You a Star.")

Sally Quinn: Thanks so much. You bring up a good point about women. And you're right that the Axial Agers put women in a second class position. But certainly, in suggesting that we learn lessons from them, she is not suggesting that women return to their lesser roles. I think, certainly in the more civilized societies, women's roles are growing in power all of the time. It is only in the fundamentalist religions that women are relegated to second class. Radical Evangelicals, Muslims, and Jews all have the same view of women. But I think this Second Axial Age we could be entering will have women in most of the roles of power because it is clear that men are not doing the job. Women will have all the power one day anyway. It's just a matter of time.

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Charlottesville, Va.: Thanks so much for this article, and for the information about Karen Armstrong - I had never heard of her before, somehow, and I love her articulation of how we must avoid passing on the pain we ourselves suffer. Will hope to make it to her signing, but, in the meantime, thank you and Ms. Armstrong - this article spoke to a lot of my struggles in this area, and particularly to my concern about competing versions of God.

Sally Quinn: I'm so glad you feel that way because I felt the same way reading her books. I had never really been able to articulate my feelings and beliefs and views until I began reading her and it seems that she has allowed me to arrive at a certain clarity that has been exhilarating to me. Of course she has been thinking about this subject all of her life and I've just begun to explore these questions but I did feel somewhat liberated when I started to read her. She is very wise.

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Falls Church, Va.: Dear Ms. Quinn,

There is a need for separation of church and state in government, but not in public discourse. Previous writers have alluded to the subject, but would you care to comment more on the history of the Post in terms what might be called a fear of discussing the effects of faith and belief on the front page?

thanks

Sally Quinn: I think there is a difference between commentary and reporting and reporting goes on the front page. But I agree that reporting of these issues will bring about more discussions which is always a good thing.

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Virginia: It seems a big leap to go from being an atheist to a believer. Can you describe more how she made this transition in her life?

Sally Quinn: I think she went from being a devout Catholic while she was in the convent to being turned off by the dogmatism of organized religion which sent her in the opposite direction. Then over the years while writing and researching and reporting and thinking about religion she arrived at a different view. I don't think it's so hard to understand. The same thing happened to me.

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Arlington, Va.: Generally speaking, do you - as a reporter - think religious issues are covered in the news enough? I know this is a broad question, but curious as to your thoughts - thanks.

Sally Quinn: My feeling is that a newspaper should serve its readers and it just seems to me that given what is going in the world, people are hungry for something. Everyone seems to be searching and yearning for answers whatever they may be. And that ends up being some kind of spiritual or religious belief. So no, I don't think we cover religion enough. But as I said, the Post is moving in that direction more and more.

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Las Vegas, Nev.: I have read four of Karen Armstrong's books and really admire her work. She has had an influence on my thinking as well as the religious world in general. Given this acceptance, doesn't she consider herself a failure since she voluntarily left the order and then failed to complete requirements for the doctorate? Admittedly, She did not find success in romance either. Has any of these life-traumas impacted her writing?

Sally Quinn: I certainly wouldn't consider anyone who had had so many hugely important and successful books a failure! I should be such a failure. Not only does she write but she is a very popular and sought after speaker on the subject and is on all kinds of commissions to advise world leaders. She is one of the world's most prominent religious scholars. I think she is philosophical about her not being married. She is wedded to her career. She has also helped so many people in the world to find clarity in their own views and beliefs that I think she has achieved something most people could never dream of.

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Chantilly, Va.: I just don't get religion. I've never understood why people need to make up implausible stories just to make themselves feel better about mortality or evil or bad things happening to good people. Am I unusual?

Sally Quinn: Not at all. In fact, so many people I know, even those who call themselves religious, don't get it either. Karen Armstrong said that when she was in the convent and trying to pray and nothing was happening that she wondered if all the other nuns were having the same problem. Was it a case of the Emperor has no clothes. I do think that many religious people have enormous doubts. But I think that obviously humans find it very difficult to believe that there is no there there. So they created these stories and myths to give their lives some meaning. Everyone gets meaning in different ways. I have a labyrinth in the country in our weekend house and I get an enormous sense of peace and calm by walking it and meditating on things that are bothering me. I don't get that anywhere else. Some people get it by inviting friends over and sharing a meal, or playing a sport or arranging flowers or listening to music or dancing. (I dance) When you say you don't get religion, you're just saying that you don't get organized religion. You're not alone.

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Salt Lake City, Utah: Sally, Your book on dinner parties is so helpful, humorous, witty, and, yes, elicits pathos, I am still referencing it and referring it to friends to read. Will listen to your fashion commentary with a smile.....

Sally Quinn: Thank you. Funny you mention my dinner parties when I have just suggested that inviting close friends over to share a meal with candlelight and wine at your table could be a form of religious experience for some people To me it's a form of sacrament.

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Sally Quinn: Thank you all so much for your questions. I look forward to doing another chat soon. Sally Q

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