Discussion About the National Geographic Project
Marvin Meyer
Griset Professor of Bible and Christian Studies and Director of the Albert Schweitzer Institute at Chapman University, Orange, Calif.
Thursday, April 6, 2006
2:30 PM
Marvin Meyer, who is on the nine-person Codex Advisory Panel assembled by the National Geographic Society, was online Friday, April 7, at 2:30 p.m. ET to field questions and comments about the first modern translation of the ancient "Gospel of Judas" released Thursday by the organization. (Read More From The Post.)
Meyer is Griset Professor of Bible and Christian Studies and director of the Albert Schweitzer Institute at Chapman University, Orange, California. He is one of the foremost scholars on Gnosticism, the Nag 'Hammadi library, and texts about Jesus outside the New Testament. He is one of the translators of the codex.
The transcript follows.
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Marvin Meyer: The discovery of an ancient gospel is always an astonishing moment. It doesn't happen very often. This is one of those times where it has happened. This gospel happens to be an especially provocative gospel in so many ways. It is my hope that the discussion will begin and that many different kinds of people will engage this gospel, will discuss it, debate it and see what kind of value they might find in it.
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Pan, Okla.: This is certainly an interesting find, but the news coverage seems to present it as a challenge to the history of Christianity. That seems akin to saying "Gone with the Wind" reveals new truths about the history of the Civil War. When you remove the hype of the news reporting, what do the researchers consider to be the significance of the document's content?
Marvin Meyer: Very good question. I would hope that we scholars are not the ones who are hyping the document. The document is good enough itself; it doesn't need to be hyped. What we have here is a document that was composed in the middle of the second century. And it represents one perspective out of a diversity of points of view regarding who Jesus was in the early church. It is that acknowledgment of diversity that becomes one of the key issues in the Gospel of Judas and that is what I would hope people would observe and study and appreciate for its historical value.
I might also add that if this sort of diversity is appreciated in the early church, it may also be the case that we will learn to appreciate and celebrate diversity in our modern world. And if that is the case, we will all be the better for it.
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Taunton, Mass.: Does the entire content of the Gospel of Judas deal with the relationship of Jesus and Judas? How many pages in the complete volume?
Marvin Meyer: The entire text of the Gospel of Judas occupies 26 pages of the book or Codex, that is pages 33-58. The relationship between Jesus and Judas is the key element in the Gospel of Judas. It is suggested in the Gospel, in no uncertain terms, that Judas is the only one of the disciples who truly understands Jesus. The heart of the Gospel of Judas communicates a revelation or a teaching that Jesus offered to Judas about the nature of the world and the nature of God in the world. It is this teaching about cosmology that is the content of the knowledge that Judas must understand in order to become enlightened. He does understand it; He becomes transfigured or enlightened and he does exactly what Jesus asks him to do. He turns him into the authorities.
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Washington, D.C.: Is the Gospel of Judas viewed as more valuable than other similar coptic gospels (e.g., the Gospel of Thomas)?
Along the same lines, how does the age of the Gospel of Judas compare with the other coptics--i.e., which are closest in time to Jesus' life?
Marvin Meyer: I wouldn't say that the Gospel of Judas is more valuable than some of these incredibly interesting gospels that you mention: Thomas, Mary, Philip, and Truth. These gospels are all very significant, as is the Gospel of Judas.
The Gospel of Judas can be securely dated in the middle of the second century. We know this because of a reference in Irenaeus of Lyon to a Gospel of Judas in a work that he published around 180. What then becomes interesting about the Gospel of Judas, in terms of its date, is that it is apparently earlier than many, but not all, but many of the Gnostic gospels that have come down to us. As a result, we will need to rewrite the history of Gnostic thought because of the discovery of the Gospel of Judas. In addition there are earlier materials within the Gospel of Judas that bring us closer to the first century. All in all this means that the Gospel of Judas provides the occasion to place all the early Christian gospels on the table and discuss them altogether as examples of the various ways that people in the early Church chose to follow Jesus.
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Washington, D.C.: When and where will the English translation of the text be available?Thank you.
Marvin Meyer: It is available right now in the book entitled "The Gospel of Judas" edited by Rodolphe Kasser, Marvin Meyer, moi, and Gregor Wurst. And it should be at book stores everywhere.
You might also look at the Web site of the National Geographic society that has Coptic text and many other aids for reading and understanding the Gospel of Judas.
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Villa Rica, Ga.: Why were the early church leaders so opposed to the Judas text and the idea that Jesus may have appointed Judas to turn him over to the authorities? What are other ways that this text differs from the other gospels?
Marvin Meyer: The Gospel of Judas not only has an unconventional view of the disciple Judas, it also is a mystical or Gnostic gospel that suggests that within every person there is a spark or light of the divine. God is within each human being. This mystical approach was viewed with suspicion by many people, in particular church leaders and in addition to theological issues that they had with this sort of gospel, they were also concerned with the political implications. If readers of the Gospel of Judas and other similar mystical gospels take the message seriously, then they do not need to consult with any priest or bishop in order to find the way to God. They can find God by themselves because they are one with God. Many of the church leaders seem to have taken strong exception to this kind of independence of Gnostic or mystical Christians. This sort of independence, if widespread, could leave them unemployed. So there are both political and theological points of opposition that could be directed to a gospel, like the Gospel of Judas.
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Anonymous: Who wrote the gospel of Judas? What was the origin of the author(s) inspiration to write the gospel? What motive did the author(s) have for writing the gospel?
Marvin Meyer: We do not know who wrote the Gospel of Judas, but one thing is very clear, it was not Judas. Rather it was some mid-second century Christian who felt that he or she had a powerful understanding of the good news of Jesus, and wanted to proclaim that vision of Jesus to other people. There also are some politically incorrect and rather nasty accusations in the Gospel of Judas that are directed toward those individuals in the Church who must have been opposing the Gospel of Judas. Thus, part of the reason that the Gospel of Judas was composed was to present this mystical perspective of Jesus in contrast to what was being preached in the emerging Orthodox Church. This was simply a part of the debate that was going on in the Church regarding what are the appropriate ways to understand the figure of Jesus.
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Laurel, Md.: Is there any reason to think the author of this text had actual first-hand knowledge of the conversations between Jesus and Judas?
Marvin Meyer: This is a very good question and I wish that we could be sure about the answer. There always are traditions, often elusive traditions, sometimes oral traditions, that we can sense in the life of the early church. It may well be the case that there was a tradition that Judas Iscariot was in fact one of the disciples who was closest to Jesus and was a valued member of the circle of men and women around Jesus. There are hints of that already in the New Testament Gospels and that positive assessment of Judas is confirmed now by the Gospel of Judas. Thus the examination and interpretation of the Gospel of Judas may well give us reason to reevaluate the figure of Judas in the New Testament Gospels also.
Whether or not there were secrets that were shared between the historical figure of Jesus and the historical figure of Judas, while hinted at in the New Testament and made explicit in the Gospel of Judas, is harder to determine with any kind of certainty. But it certainly remains a possibility.
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Arlington, Va.: Is it just coincidence that you released this translation shortly before "The Da Vinci Code" hits the movie screens, or was this a deliberate attempt to surf that movie's momentum?
Marvin Meyer: As far as I know, the motivation of all of the people that were working on The Gospel of Judas project was to make available the text and translation of the Gospel of Judas as quickly as possible. Certainly the scholars have all been working very hard to finish work on the assembly of fragments, the translation of the text and the interpretation of the Gospel of Judas.
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Arlington, Va.: I have a comment rather than a question: what an amazing find! And while the Bishop of Lyon had a problem with it 1700 years ago, now it provides an interesting insight into early Christianity. And while it may be "heretical," it does not shake my faith in the least.
Marvin Meyer: Bravo.
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Alabama: The Gnostic gospels often have Jesus revealing "secret" knowledge which (to me anyway) seems like it was meant to be confined to a set of the elect. What role would this book have played in the worship of the Cainite sect? Would it be read in a service, used for private devotion or serve as a document only a privileged few would get to see?
Marvin Meyer: This is a very good and a very difficult question. Whether we would go along with Irenaeus and describe this sort of text as coming from the Cainites is highly uncertain. I am not at all convinced that there were any people in the second century who called themselves Cainites. Rather this seems to be more of a derogatory label that Irenaeus invents in order to poke fun of some mystical Christians. Rather, it seems more likely that the people that produced the Gospel of Judas belong to a broadly based movement of Gnostic Christians that we sometimes describe as Sethian Gnostics. These were Gnostics who believed that after the tragedy of Cain and Abel humankind had a new beginning with the righteous son Seth, son of Adam and Eve. These Gnostics hope to become part of the people of Seth or the generation of Seth. And they believed if they were Christians that Jesus as a true human being came in the spirit and power of Seth.
Precisely how the Gospel would be read is unclear. What seems to be clear, however, is that this was a gospel meant for the insiders in this mystical movement to confirm how they were different from members of the emerging Orthodox church and to proclaim their own convictions about the value of Jesus and what it means to follow Jesus. This would not have been a text that would have been read in the emerging Orthodox church, but it would be embraced by those people who believed that this form of mystical Christianity provided the right way to God.
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London, England: Does Gnosticism pre-date Christianity?
Marvin Meyer: Most likely you are right. In fact, in the Gospel of Judas the revelation that is provided to Judas by Jesus is almost entirely Jewish -- Hellenistic Jewish -- with a single reference to Christ dropped into the otherwise Jewish revelation. This Jewish disclosure then is put on the lips of Jesus in the Gospel of Judas and it thereby becomes the revelation of Jesus. This observation suggests that the Jewish Gnostic revelation of the core of the Gospel of Judas must antedate the Gospel itself. And it must have come from the earlier part of the second century, or from the first century or from even before. Thus in the Gospel of Judas it seems to be the case that the Christian message about Jesus is founded upon a Jewish Gnostic message that was developed some time before. That Jewish Gnostic message in the Gospel of Judas includes substantial platonic elements.
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St. Mary's City, Md.: I'm fascinated by the idea of alternate Gospels, such as the Gnostic Gospels, because they offer a perspective on Jesus and the early Church that differs from the orthodox one. Why do you think the Gospel of Judas was among the Gospels left out of the New Testament? Did early Church leaders want to portray Judas as a convenient villain who suffered because of his deed?
Marvin Meyer: I believe that we have already addressed some aspects of this very good question. I might simply add that the negative assessment of Judas found in the New Testament Gospels became a convenient occasion for vilifying Judas as well as other Jewish people, and blaming Jewish people for the death of Jesus. It is well known that speculation about Judas Iscariot has fanned the flames of anti-Semitism. To that extent, the Gospel of Judas runs counter to some of the prevailing anti-Jewish tendencies that can be seen in some other anti-Christian literature. Today the Gospel of Judas may provide us the opportunity to reassess the interpretation of Judas Iscariot and perhaps do away with one of the building blocks of anti-Semitism.
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Silver Spring, Md.: Will the gospel of Judas be incorporated in the Holy Bible just like the gospel of John, James, etc.?
Marvin Meyer: I would be profoundly surprised if the Gospel of Judas would be incorporated into the New Testament Canon. The New Testament Canon was developed over a period of centuries as early church leaders argued about which books should be included and which should be excluded from the New Testament Canon. In addition to a theological side to this debate, political considerations also entered into the decisions about the New Testament. The majority decides theological correctness. And the majority defines who is Orthodox and who is heretical. This same majority determined which books should be included in the New Testament. The books that did not fit the theology of this emerging Orthodox Church were excluded from consideration.
From the days of Irenaeus, the Gospel of Judas was given the label of a heretical gospel. That does not necessarily mean that it is either right or wrong, but it does mean that it is not destined to be included in the collection of acceptable books. I do not anticipate that the Church is going to change its mind in the present day; however, if it is the case that we may read the Gospel of Judas and the other gospels, canonical and noncanonical, we may gain a renewed appreciation for the vitality and the diversity of the early Christian movement.
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Marvin Meyer: I would like to thank each one of you for your wonderful and thoughtful questions. I hope and trust that this is just the beginning of a fruitful conversation that we can have together about all of the gospels from early Christianity, but now in particular, the Gospel of Judas.
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