Outlook: Africa's Destructive Leaders

Capture of Charles Taylor Removes Only One of the Continent's Despots

Douglas Farah , former West Africa bureau chief for The Washington Post and author of "Blood From Stones: The Secret Financial Network of Terror," was online Monday, April 24, at 2:30 p.m. ET to discuss his Sunday Outlook article, African Pillagers , ( Post, April 23, 2006 ), on the capture of former Liberian leader Charles Taylor and the destructive leaders still in power on the continent.

Despite Taylor's arrest, Farah notes that there are many like him who still maintain their grip on power to the detriment of their own nations: Omar Bongo of Gabon, who has been in power since the Johnson administration, Chad's dictator Idriss Deby and others who have been unchecked for decades. Despite their number, they have escaped the international attention and condemnation focused on equivalent leaders elsewhere. Farah argues that they are a danger both to the countries they control and to the stability of the region as a whole, and the assumption that are irrelevant outside of Africa is shortsighted.

The transcript follows.

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Douglas Farah: Hi. Thanks for joining me today. There are a lot of questions already, so I will try to get to as many as I can, and be brief. Thanks for your interest.

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Wheaton, Md.: Why is it that the deplorable human rights abuses in Africa are all but ignored by the international community? An entire village in Africa can be mutilated and massacred and the world says nothing. Is it because the U.N. is afraid to ever condemn anything Islamic?

Douglas Farah: I think a large part is historic racism in neglecting Africa almost completely, and the belief that we have no strategic interests there. Also, in the isolationism of this era, Africa is always at the bottom of everyone's list.

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Washington, D.C.: Transafrica under Randall Robinson and the NAACP were silent on anything bad about Africa. Why?

Douglas Farah: You would have to ask them, but the silence is deafening.

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Md.: Good article, but you say nothing about Paul Biya who is ruling Cameroon for up to 24 years now...Thanks.

Douglas Farah: Space was limited and I had to choose a few. I only wrote about countries I had visited and reported on, but the list, of course, as several of you point out, is far longer than those named.

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Washington, D.C.: I have four questions, mainly on Zimbabwe and Mugabe:

1. If Mugabe and his cronies have stashed millions outside the country, are there no mechanisms of freezing these looted funds or even making the foreign Banks accountable for, NOW rather wait until Mugabe is deposed.

2. If Taylor has been brought to book for picking the fight with the international community, why not Mugabe. The land grabbing affected not only Zimbabweans. He also openly challenged Blair and Bush. Why is the world not taking Mugabe to book. To me, I think the reason is because Mugabe still has friends (Mbeki etc) among African leaders whilst Taylor no longer has any friends to shield him.

3. There is another piece in Outlook on (the effects of)lobbyists and Equatorial Guinea. I think these are the people who should be taken to task because they are perpetrating the atrocities of the dictators.

4. I agree with you that the slashing of coverage on Africa by major news organisations has contributed to failure by the international community to police these dictators. Nobody also talks about the deposed Ethiopian leader being shielded by Mugabe.

Douglas Farah: There are some efforts to get at the money of dictators, but they are underfunded, not a priority and rely greatly on international cooperation. The U.S. is not the only country that ignores Africa. most of Europe does too, except to protect direct national investments. If France and Belgium and others are not willing to go after the money, it will not work and does not work.

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Saint Louis, Mo.: The African leaders bring their money and their ill gotten wealth into the foreign banks (western world) and the western leaders knows about this. I guess if these African thieves loses their so called safe havens for their money; they would steal less money. Why can't the western world disrupt these system?

Douglas Farah: Eliminating safe havens would be a huge advantage, not only for Africa, but for avoiding situations like Enron, where fictitious overseas companies are formed to avoid paying taxes. Bank secrecy, offshore banking and offshore corporate registries all contribute to this vicious cycle.

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Richmond, Va.: You claim Equatorial Guinea is Africa's only Spanish-speaking nation. This is wrong. What on earth happened to Western Sahara (SADR)? Why didn't you include them? They are recognized as a independent country by the African Union and by nearly 80 countries worldwide.

Douglas Farah: I was referring to sub-Saharan Africa in the story.

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Washington, D.C.: Where does Ghana stand in your estimation? Is it the exception to the disasters, or a disaster-in-progress? Is the instability of neighboring countries likely to spill over the borders? My father is working with a charity over there right now, so this topic worries me.

Douglas Farah: Ghana has made remarkable strides in stabilizing itself and its economy. The danger there is the spillover of conflicts in Ivory Coast and Nigeria. Either or both of those will make the region much less safe and set back what little progress there has been.

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Los Angeles, Calif.: Is it true that the fighting in Liberia was so confused that people would even be fighting on both sides at different battles?

Douglas Farah: People fought for whoever could pay them, generally. People fought on many different sides of the conflicts there, often turning on their previous allies. But I don't know about fighting on both sides in the same battle.

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Arlington, Va.: You have spend a mere 18 month in Abidjan, Cote Ivoire, of your career, so could you please explain why should we the reader your article seriously? Your own comparison of Charles Taylor with other so called "Big Man" is a bit disingenuous....I certainly feel that there are bad leaders everywhere including in Africa but "not much of the continent is ruled by megalomanical "Big Man". You should write and talk about something you have true knowledge and ...because your words at Washington Post have big repercussions. Journalist also need a code of responsibility even if writing about Africa does not faces serious scrutiny!!!

Douglas Farah: This forum is for scrutiny, and you did not point out anything I said wrong in the piece.

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Hamburg, Germany: My concern is the lists of dictators D. Farah put in his unwanted dictators. His refusal to acknowledge the fact that since 1980 there has been fair democratic elections in Zimbabwe puts him in the shoes of those who confound the grave African crisis with mere food issues. It is true that there is food shortages in Zimbabwe and other parts of colonial Africa where, i.e. Kenya, where leaders inability propel their colonial African farms for their citizens interest has led to reduction of their states of what it is today. We in the Azanian national union who see the ongoing colonial African problems differently thinks it is time for those reporting on the shortcomings of African leaders to be brave in explaining their audience about the collusion with western developed countries. In fact, without such collusion the African misery would not have continued that long.

The commentator is a senior member of the national Azanian union ( http://www.nationalazanianunion.net/ ).

Douglas Farah: There were several free and fair elections that Mugabe won, no question. But his decision to throttle the opposition when he ran the risk of losing power, coupled with his decision to destroy the nation's economy and establish a police state cannot be blamed on colonialism or anything other than the decisions of a leader determined to hang on to power at all costs. The West has committed innumerable mistakes in Africa, without a doubt. But leaders like Mugabe who seek to perpetuate themselves in power and use force to do so must take responsibility for their actions.

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Washington, D.C.: Douglas,

With the increasing involvement of China in African economies and their absolute indifference to human rights abuses or other egregious abuses of power it seems that there is little to stand in the way of African dictators. Why don't the leaders of other African countries take a stronger stand against these big-men?

Douglas Farah: China does pose a huge problem for that reason-they will buy, bribe and corrupt whomever they can to get to the resources they want. As scant as U.S. and European efforts have been to deal with corruption, the Chinese government has none. That is a problem that will strengthen the big men and set democracy back even further.

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Washington, D.C.: Some of the people you mentioned in your piece have made a considerable effort to show that they've changed -- promoting increases in social spending and etc. What would it take for their efforts to be taken seriously by the international community?

Douglas Farah: It would take genuine change and the leaders leading office, in my opinion. Obiang may have built some schools-he is getting billions of dollars and most of his country live in poverty. His son runs amok around Europe and the cosmetic changes have more to do with what shows they put on for lobbyists than with reality.

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Chapel Hill, N.C.: Is the funding of al Qaeda through the blood diamond trade acknowledged by the international diamond marketers such as deBeers? Is there evidence that this trade continues even without Taylor? Are diamonds from other areas involved as well?

Douglas Farah: DeBeers has conducted its own investigations and found diamonds have been used by al Qaeda and other terrorist groups, particularly Hezbollah. There is little known now about how diamonds are being used, that I can tell, because no one in the intelligence community is looking. The State Department has one person working half time on commodity issues. Not likely to find much like that.

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Equatorial Guinea and U.S. double standard: The Post has commendably brought a spotlight (last week's editorial and Sunday's Outlook) on the Dept. of State's despicable double-talk in hosting "our good friend" Obiang Nguema. Convenient that we're E.G.'s largest trading partner, isn't it?

Has there been any response from State on this?

Douglas Farah: Only embarrassed silence, as far as I have heard. Very convenient too that EG has oil and natural gas. Enough to pay high price lobbyists in a city where few know or read the history of these leaders.

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Washington, D.C.: I'm concerned that the 2007 elections in Nigeria will leave the electorate with two bad choices: amend the constitution to allow the current president to run a third time or reelect the worst of a string of dictators, Ibrahim Babangida. Is there another way?

Douglas Farah: Nigeria has difficulty on every front. The elections and the amendment to the constitution are very troubling because, as you point out, there are no good options. I don't have an answer on what the solution would be.

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Washington, D.C.: Do you think it is better to try Taylor in Sierra Leone or in the Hague? Which trial would be a deterrence or a lesson to the other Big Men?

Douglas Farah: That is an interesting question. Removing Taylor to the Hague would ensure he could not continue to maintain contact with his network. It also signals Africa cannot try its own. If the UN is willing to put up the necessary security I would personally rather see him in Freetown. It is a powerful symbol that even the Taylors of the world can be brought out to stand public trial. however, I do not have that much faith in the security situation there at this time.

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Rockville, Md.: Do you think U.S. policy makers on Africa have well thought out policies? I can't fathom why the U.S. continues to support a hated dictator like Meles Zenawi, who through a widespread killing and torture of his people, is heading to destabilize the horn of Africa shortly. What do you think is in the minds of U.S. policy makers who encourage democracy on the one hand and side with the dictators when pro democracy forces are victimized. I find it hard to explain U.S. behavior in Ethiopia.

Douglas Farah: Perhaps the best explanation is the easiest-a lack of attention and the overriding view that we have no interests in the region. Without strategic interests, it is easy to believe the outside world has no responsibility for helping. And, as I said, because there are so few Western news organizations covering the region, the stories simply don't get out, so there is no political outcry for things to change.

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Washington, D.C.: Do you have any information if Meles Zenawi of Ethiopia has hired K Street lobbyist to improve his image in Washington. The Outlook article mentions that Equatorial Guinea has a lobbyist paid 120,000/per month.

Douglas Farah: I don't know, but that would be a matter of public record as lobbyists have to register with the government.

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Washington, D.C.: Hi Douglas,

I've spent a good amount of time in West Africa for both work and pleasure and have to admit it's one of my favorite areas of the world. It's heartening to see stories of good governance in countries like Senegal, Mali, Benin and Ghana. What do you think the U.S. can do to ensure that more countries follow the path of democracy? What steps can we take in countries like Liberia that are truly at a crossroads? And is there the political will in the U.S. to truly make a difference?

Douglas Farah: I think it is pretty clear that this administration has no will or political capital to spend on conflicts or "nation building" in Africa. Its predecessors did not really either. The U.S. can begin by actively helping, through debt forgiveness, trade and aid, those countries that successfully begin the transitions from dictatorships to democracy. You listed some: Senegal, Mali, Benin, Ghana. The results of this move must translate into something tangible for people, or else the potential for slipping back is very high.

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Arlington, Va.: I was fortunate enough to have taken a class from Ali Mazrui while he was at the University of Michigan almost 20 years ago. He argued that the lack of U.S. attention to Africa was grounded in racism. How much of a role do you think that still plays in today's world?

Douglas Farah: I think traditional racism has played a huge role in shaping African history. However, I think that is also combined with indifference to the outside world and, in the current world climate, an obsession with all things terrorist and virtually nothing else. That is a double whammy.

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Fairfax, Va.: My question is how does the U.S. reconcile its interest to garner support for its global anti-terrorism effort from dictators like Meles Zenawi of Ethiopia and its commitment for promotion of human right and democracy globally? Hasn't the U.S. learned the lesson from Saddam Hussein that supporting tyrants will always lead to a disastrous end?

Douglas Farah: It is certainly a delicate balance that any U.S. administration must seek. But it seems to me that supporting tyrants almost always leads to blow-back, including the fact that people in odious regimes the U.S. supports tend to hate the US. Not too complicated, but seemingly difficult for people to grasp. It comes down, partly, to one's terms of reference. Is terrorism a military-intelligence problem or is terrorism and the potential growth of terrorism tied to social, economic and religious factors? Depending on one's answer to that, one chooses policies. This administration has made its choice pretty clear.

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Munich, Germany: Where exactly does the term for megalomaniacal African despots, "Big Men" originate from?

While on vacation in Botswana, I picked up a copy of "Big Men, Little People" by the British journalist, Alec Russell, which had some fascinating insights on the history of African corruption. For instance, Russell describes Zaire's Mobutu as "The King of Kleptocracy".

If the national debts incurred by the corruption of previous Big Men regimes can be alleviated by debt relief, do you think that the curse of African corruption can be cured and Africa could learn to live without future Big Men?

Douglas Farah: It is, as I am sure you know, a term that is often used in Africa itself to refer to strong, autocratic leaders. No question that the Cold War fueled huge corruption and the giving of billions of dollars to 'allies," when it meant the money went to the leaders' pockets and the debt settled on the people for future generations. Debt forgiveness is necessary for advancement. But it is useless if it simply frees up more money to be stolen by the Big Men who control access to all state income.

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Anonymous: Robert Mugabe is a Mother Theresa by standards of Meles Zenawi. Mugabe did not kill as much as Meles nor did he put all leaders of the opposition party in prison on trumped up charges or steal an election in broad daylight. Meles is U.S.'s friend Mugabe is condemned more often than than Meles Zenawi. May be the problem with Mugabe is he has taken white owned farms.

Douglas Farah: Yes, Zenawi is a huge problem. As I said earlier, I had limited space and could only choose a few of the unfortunately large number of despots out there. It is no less a double standard with him than the U.S. But to say that Mugabe is solely a problem because he has taken white-owned farms is to dismiss the blood on his hands as racism, which I do not accept.

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Washington, D.C.: You covered the region, which includes a number of long-time oil producers. Were there any initiatives they supported that helped to alleviate poverty? What was it?

Douglas Farah: There are very few programs to alleviate poverty, as one can see from visiting the Niger Delta, EG, Chad or Cameroon. That is one of the great tragedies of this time. Several countries like Chad and EG have a unique window to actually pull their countries out of poverty and desperation without being reliant on the outside world. They could do it their way, and do it well. Instead, they are saddled with Obiang, Deby etc., who have focused instead on how much they can stash outside the country, rather than having any vision for the futures of their countries.

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Arlington, Va.: Thank you for covering a part of the world that gets little attention. Please continue to do so.

What effect do you think the Millennium Challenge Corporation will have on those countries that qualify? More money pocketed by corrupt officials, or are there any safeguards?

Douglas Farah: Safeguards do little if the leadership wants to corrupt them. Deby showed that in Chad. There were all the many safeguards so in theory he could not divert the money. Yet he did, his first purchase was weapons, a complete violation of everything he had signed. So I am not overly optimistic about the MCC.

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Richmond, Va.: Good article. I remember your article on Taylor from October, where you argued that he should be tried. You mention that EQ's president Obiang is surrounded by Moroccan bodyguards. Do you know if these are freelancers or are they given to him courtesy of Morocco's King Mohamed VI? His father the late Hassan II was a stalwart supporter of Zaire's Mobutu..

Douglas Farah: They were, at the time I was there, rented to him by the government of Morocco. Obiang paid, but they were part of the Moroccan security apparatus. I don't know if that is still the case.

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Munich, Germany: What are your thoughts on Mbeki's concept of, "African solutions for African problems"?

Douglas Farah: In an ideal world that would be an ideal concept. But as Liberia and Taylor have shown, and Darfur shows, Mbeki and others have difficulty moving to solve their own problems. To leave Darfur to suffer this long is unconscionable. To not speak out against Mugabe, Obiang etc., is also, to me, utterly irresponsible. Ultimately it is Africans who will have to solve African problems. There seems to be very little leadership or stomach for taking on fellow leaders, however.

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Dallas, Tex.: I was so disappointed with the media, specially CNN and other major news organizations here in America for not putting the killings of over 40 innocent civilians on June 7 and 2005 and another 40 people including children and women on Nov 1st and 2nd 2005 in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. CNN and others were showing every detail of the Nepal uprising and shootings. In your opinion why are these Media outlets are blocking the news from Ethiopia?

Douglas Farah: It is an interesting comparison with Nepal, because both are far away and not on the normal high U.S. interest list. Perhaps because Ethiopia is much harder to get into and does not often let the media members in. I don't think anyone is blocking the story within the media, but if resources are scarce, and they are, and sending people costs time and money-and in Ethiopia it does-then stories will go uncovered.

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Fairfax, Va.: With the level of corruption you report, why would USAID sign a development agreement with Obiang?

Douglas Farah: I wish I knew. It was Riggs bank itself and the Senate committee on investigations that came up with the numbers on Obiang, so it is not just my reporting, although if you go to EG, it is clear the money must be going somewhere because it sure is not going to improve the country!

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Douglas Farah: Thanks for taking the time to log on with good questions. I hope it was a useful dialogue.

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