Education

Discussion About K-12 System

Washington Post staff writers Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews were online Tuesday, June 13, at noon ET to field questions and comments about the K-12 education system in the United States based on their series of articles on the topic.

From The Post:

Last in an occasional series looking at kindergarten through sixth grade, "The Building Blocks" of education, and seventh through 12th grade, "The Next Step" :

Daring to Think Outside the K-12 Structure (Post, June 13)

Read More:

Fast Learners Benefit From Skipping Grades, Report Concludes (Post, June 13)

Pairing a Diploma With Associate's Degree (Post, June 13)

Learning When, Where And How They Choose (Post, June 13)

A transcript follows.

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Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: Hi. Valerie and I are sharing a computer, a really weird experience. She is letting me start because I am a lot older than she is. .... A note from Valerie: I'm letting him start because he knows more than I do....

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Kansas City, Mo.: I attended a very good Oklahoma school system in the late 80s in which seventh grade algebra was available. We had 12 students in my grade that qualified for the program. We were all very well prepared, and had a fairly easy trip all the way through Calculus. I really appreciated the opportunity to move on to the math I was ready for, rather than being bored stiff in the grade level math classes. I studied Engineering in college, and having the opportunity to take AP Calculus and a statistics class in high school without having to take more than one math class in a year and give up electives was wonderful preparation. I wish that opportunity had been available in more subject areas.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here. i think you have exactly the right idea. sadly, most schools think,without much research to back it up, that seventh graders are too young for algebra. the KIPP charter schools, now serving inner cities successfully in 16 states and washington d.c., have instead decided to start all of their seventh graders in algebra and finish in the eighth grade. it is working wonderfully.

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Centreville, Va.: My twins turn 5, just a few days before the Sept 30 cutoff date to start kindergarten. I know there are stong arguments on both sides as to whether they should start school now and be the youngest in their class, or if we should wait a year before starting, and they will be the oldest in the class. Can you tell me your thoughts on this?

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here: i had the same issue with one of my daughters as to when she should start kindergarten, and now that she is in middle school, i still wonder. there are no magic answers. much of it depends on the child, though it is hard to project into the future when someone is 5. having been the youngest student in all of my classes, i must say that i think i could have used an extra year. the one thing i hear parents say over and over is that they never regret waiting. thanks for writing.

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Washington, D.C.: I (now 36) skipped the first grade because my mother, a primary school teacher, taught me how to read at 3 and I was an advanced a reader when I got to kindergarten. Initially my teachers thought I had a learning disability because I was talking to the other kids instead of reading, then they figured out I was talking because I had finished the "See Dick run" book in 5 mins and was bored. I was reading Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves by the time I was in kindergarten. In any case, I skipped on to the second grade and I turned 17 a month before I graduated from high school. However intelligent I may have been, maturity-wise, I was not prepared for the freedom of college at just barely 17 years of age. Also, it was distressing to be a year younger than all my classmates -- who could date, drive and do some social things that because of my age either my parents didn't allow, or I just was too young to do. That is something parents -- and educators -- have to take into account.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here. this is a very interesting and instructive story. each child is different and parents have to be careful to make sure that their child has the social confidence to handle whatever grade they are soaring up to. the research shows that many underage students are quite happy in upper grades. keep in mind that lots of 18- and 19-year-olds have trouble adjusting to college freshman year also, so your age may not have been the only problem. valerie wants to add: it may be annoying to hear that "it depends" but in just about everything, it really does depend. people are different in social and emotional and academic development. this is one reason why it is vital for schools to experiment with ways to allow those children who can move ahead academically to do so without forcing on them social issues for what they are not prepared.

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Washington, D.C.: How is No Child affecting the grade system? Have there been any changes to the system as a result of the policy?

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: none whatsoever. the no child left behind law actually reinforces the old grading system because schools are judged on the basis of tests given, at least in theory, on the different grade levels. a school that decides to accelerate many students takes the risk of their not doing as well on those tests and thus causing the school to fail to meet the federal targets.

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Arlington, Va.: What do you think was the most important or most surprising information you gathered while reporting this series?

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here: i don't know whether it was the most important or the most surprising, but one thing that has resonated with me throughout is how stressed so many children say they feel at earlier ages. there is no single cause of the stress, but societal, familial and school pressures have contributed to make a lot of young people very uncomfortable. jay here: the most surprising i discovered was in one of valerie's stories today. i had no idea that public school districts like the one she wrote about in california were doing so much to welcome homeschooling students and giving them courses and activity opportunities that they desire. valerie here: i confess that was one of the most surprising things i learned too. there are numerous homeschooling schools around the country--which may seem like an oxymoron but isn't. these schools give varying levels of support to homeschoolers in terms of academic and social opportunities. the santa cruz school i wrote about today goes further, and allows students to actually be enrolled in the school system and share resources.

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College Park, Md.: I am delighted to see examples in your articles of successful alternatives to our traditional school system. I think the thing that frustrates me the most about the public schools is the "one size fits all" attitude, especially in the lower grades. I feel like students don't get nearly enough say in what their own interests are or in helping to maintain the school community. I wish educators were more able to focus on empowering their students rather than forcing them to be obedient and passive in their own education.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here: thanks for writing. it is imperative for schools to experiment more with alternative models.

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Vermont: I was so happy to read today about the Univ of Iowa study supporting children skipping grades. I skipped first grade back in 1971. That along with my December birthday meant that I started second grade at age 5 years and 9 months. I went on to graduate from high school at 16 and Harvard College at 20.

Fast forward about 15 years. My twin daughters were born on Sept 15 and the cutoff date to begin school had been pushed back to Sept 1 from Dec 31 in my day. My girls were therefore slated to begin kindergarten at age 5 years and 50 weeks. I informed our new school that they had completed kindergarten at a private school in the city we had moved from. The school said children who are five years old on Sept 1 belong in kindergarten, but every child is challenged at her own level. I thought, fine, if that's the way they want to go about it.

Two weeks later the school called us in for a meeting and proposed moving the girls to first grade. We agreed.

Despite the fact that (1) they were only a couple of weeks younger than other children in their new grade and (2) it was the school's proposal, some teachers still gave me a hard time about the situation, accusing me of "pushing" my kids.

Hopefully this report will encourage educators to be a bit more flexible and make decisons case by case. Children should be challenged at their own level, and sometimes another classroom is the best place to do that.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: this is jay here. what a terrific story. it is refreshing that the school was willing to revisit their initial stubborn decision to put your girls in kindergarten and frustrating that you still ran into the widespread bias against such moves. i wish somebody would show me the research that gives these educators the confidence to say one kid cannot be allowed to go faster and another one can. it is an attitude that i think is at least partly responsible for the sorry condition of education in our low-income neighborhoods.

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Clinton, Md.: I attended a magnet school program for Pre-K and kindergaten and was transferred to a public school the rest of the way. There were things that I learned in the Pre-K class that I can still use the phonics and english skills learned now as an adult. The public school system (not everywhere but PG County for sure) doesn't do this anymore. Most young children don't know how to break down a word using the phonics/a-beka program and they are lacking in the basic areas of the root of words and how to read a sentence. Bring back the old way of teaching children how to read and write and spell. I am not a perfect speller but I do want my son to know the root of a word and how to conjugate a verb. Is that too much to ask.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here: i have visited many schools that have returned to the phonics-based method for teaching kids how to read. this is, in fact, the favored method under president bush's "reading first" initiative, and therefore i suspect more children today are learning this way than were, say, a decade or two ago. i think many of us have a tendency to think that the way we learned things was the best way. i'm not sure that's true.

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Baltimore, Md.: Dear Mr. Mathews:

I especially enjoyed today's article on whether skipping grades benefits students. My daughter is one of those quick learners; she is entering kindergarten in the fall and already reading fluidly, writing, and doing addition and subtraction. Our local elementary school, while very good, is clearly not designed to handle kids like her. Rather, the focus is on bringing everyone up to a basic level of knowledge. I absolutely agree that this should be the the public schools' number 1 goal -- we cannot, as a society, write off kids before they've even had a chance. Yet this focus seems to be at the expense of the quicker kids, whom everyone assumes won't be hurt by moving at a slower pace.

But that's not true. My daughter, for one, needs the intellectual stimulation -- when she's bored, she starts acting out, talking, and generally misbehaving (example: she finishes her work in half the allotted time -- then tends to run around and tell all her friends how to do THEIR work). We have a running bet in our household about when some teacher will first suggest ADHD. And yet, when she's sufficiently challenged at school, she is a dream student.

So what options do we really have? The public school, which we love, is fixated on age, not ability (they wouldn't even consider her for kindergarten last year, even though, at 4 1/2, she already met all of the supposed "entrance" requirements). As much as I love the school in general, I will NOT put her in a situation that sets her up for failure. So we currently have her in a Montessori school, and she will stay there through kindergarten, for just this reason. But the longer she stays there, the more "ahead" she will be, making any adjustment even more difficult. How can we go about helping her public school understand that giving her slightly harder assignments and an hour a week with the reading specialist isn't going to cut it? Or should I just listen to my husband and resign myself to 13 years of private school?

washingtonpost.com: Fast Learners Benefit From Skipping Grades, Report Concludes (Post, June 13)

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here. thanks for the question. this absolutely dramatizes the problem that so many parents face. you do have at least two choices, working hard to persuade your public school (perhaps by taking your request, very politely, all the way to the superintendent if necessary), or going to the private schools (which may not be as receptive to accelerating your daughter as you think). i would use the time you have now to speak to the principal of the public elementary school you have in mind and if you don't find support there, taking it up the chain of command, including your local school board member. at the same time you can research the private school alternatives and see which one works for you. remember, there are some montessori schools, including a public one in arlington, that go up to at least fifth grade. valerie here: let me just add this to jay's response. i have heard many private school parents complain about the very same thing that concerns you: the school will not accelerate their gifted child. many private schools simply do not have the resources to handle the truly gifted student, so do your research.

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Alexandria, Va.: My child started Montessori pre-school/daycare at 3 and it has been a wonderful learning experience for the whole family. She turns 4 later this month and is on the verge spelling and reading. I feel that the Montessori approach is best for children 3-5/6 as it really does allow them to learn through playing and allows them to learn according to their abilities and interest- no testing to live up to. She is in a class with 3-6 year olds and the class is about 30 kids and yet despite all the concerns about class sizes they are all learning and thriving. Have you all research this type of education and how we can incorporate more of the Montessori approach into our traditional educational system.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: all three of my children attended montessori schools and i (that is, my wife, acting as the family entrepreneur) helped start the first montessori school in hong kong. i think you are right on all counts and there are some public systems that have adopted the montessori approach in some schools. but most public educators are uncomfortable with it, for all the reasons we discussed in today's stories.

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Washington, D.C.: What made you decide to work on this series?

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here. jay and i have been writing for the post's schools & learning page for six years now, and every year do a series on basic education issues. one year we looked at the elements that make a successful school, another year we looked at president bush's no child left behind law through the educators and administrators who are implementing it. two years ago, we decided to look at the basic architecture of the primary and secondary education systems. we originally thought we would stop at grade 6, figuring that middle school and high school could be lumped together. as we researched the series, we realized that each grade really does have unique attributes, and so finished it up this year, going through 12th grade. jay realized we should finish the series with a story looking at alternatives to the k-12 structure, which is what we published today.

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Washington, D.C.: I went to an excellent public school system in New Jersey for most of my K-12 education. I started algebra in 7th grade, took a full assortment of AP courses in high school, and even attended community college in the evenings. I graduated from college at age 20, and went out into the professional workplace while I started on graduate school. What I found was that, as a 20-year-old professional, I was placed at a significant disadvantage because of my age. Much networking took place in bars, which I could not enter because of my age. People rudely asked how old I was and labeled me a "child prodigy" if I told them. Even today, years later, I heard my boss introduce me as a "great employee that we hired when she was very young." Although I appreciated the intellectual stimulation of the fast-track while I was in school and enjoyed hanging out with an older crowd throughout my education, I found that it was tremendously difficult to enter the workplace. Even now, with two graduate degrees and several years of experience, I get funny looks in interviews and networking situations in which people assume that someone with my qualifications should be many years older. If I had to do it over again, I still would, but I now leave my year of birth off all employment applications and politely decline to answer any question about my age. I've found that the effects of grade-skipping and acceleration go well beyond the classroom.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: thank you for this very interesting perspective. i suspect the people researching gifted education are going to be looking at the difficulties you have just described as the number of students being accelerated increases. i am happy to hear that you were able to get through that awkward period. my children have friends who have been accelerated a couple of years and do not seem to have encountered this problem, at least not to the extent you did. if i were 20 and had just graduated from college, i would fiercely resist going into the job market and would look for something off-beat to do, like travel the world in a tramp steamer or teach in an inner-city school willing to hire anybody.

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Bethesda, Md.: I am a working professional and going to school as well. During summmer I have free time and would like to offer some free tutoring in math and computer. I contacted many schools and they all said either they don't have one or it is not available during summer. My question is that why don't the school systems have tutoring programs? I believe it is beneficial to students as they not only learn more, but also they can interact with working professionals.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here: many schools do, in fact, have tutoring programs. the federal no child left behind law actually requires many schools to provide tutoring programs for students, and around the country school districts have been scrambling for the past few years to put these programs in place. undoubtedly more schools could use tutoring programs for kids, but it wouldn't be accurate to say that none have them. jay would like to add: for someone like you who wants to do this in your spare time for free, you do have to look for schools that are hustling up their own tutors rather than using the companies that are providing most of the services under no child left behind. i know for a fact that maury elementary school in alexandria, run by one of the best principals in the country, would be delighted to use your services. valerie again: many of the companies that supply tutors to schools under no child left behind actually hire teachers at that school. as jay said, talk to the principals at various schools about how you fit in.

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Cent : I think you only need to look at the number of parents who think their child is brighter and a quicker learner than all other children their age to see where a lot of the stress children are experiencing is coming from!

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: you make an excellent point. there are parents who push too hard and valerie wrote a terrific story this year about that phenomenon. but i have watched this phenomenon closely in high schools for two decades and i think most of the pressure is being placed by students on themselves. they watch their pressured parents enjoy the thrill of doing six things at once and they want some of that adrenaline for themselves. i don't think there is any cure for that particular disease. i have had it all my life, some of my children have it too, and we like it. valerie here: i am still laughing from your comment! i happen to think there is something to what you say: it can be difficult for some parents to clearly see their children and their abilities, or lack thereof. the phenomenon of pushing kids is, i think, something you can see around the country, most especially in areas with highly educated populations, such as the washington d.c. area. i agree with jay that kids see their parents and try to emulate them, but i also think our competitive society is a factor as well.

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Richmond, Va.: I have not read your stories today, but I will. My daughter will be in 2nd grade at a Montessori school this fall. She has attended there since she was 3 years old. She absolutely loves it and is so hungry to learn. My husband and I really believe in the Montessori philosophy. It works well for the teacher to assess her skills and progress and not give her grades. What is your opinion of grades? If schools were really better at taking the time to make independent assessments of children, would grades really be necessary? It seems to me that the public schools are too focused on grading everyone and getting students to memorize information for tests rather than really understanding concepts.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here: i would imagine most kids, and their parents, would love to do without grades. my guess is that if we did, we'd reinvent them. they are, simply, a necessary part of accountability. how they are given, what importance they hold and what criteria go into the actual grade are issues worth discussing.

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Midwest: One year I attended a presentation at our state's school board convention. A gifted learning expert held up tracings of two students' feet--a tiny shoe and a very large shoe. She said, "Both of these feet belong to second-graders. You don't go to the shoe store and ask for a "second grade shoe". Why do we then think there is a "second grade curriculum" that fits all students?"

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: exactly. that is a terrific example. i think i'll steal it for one of my speeches.

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Washington, D.C.: This isn't school related, but I wanted to thank Valerie for the piece a few weeks back in the Style section about her mom. It was a wonderful read. I wish you would do more essays, you clearly have a gift for it.

washingtonpost.com: A Mother To Everyone She Knows (Post, May 15)

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here: that is so very very kind of you. thank you. i appreciate it.

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Another skipping situation: When I was in public elementary school, I was allowed to leave my grade and attend a grade higher for reading and spelling (in grade two I attended reading and spelling in grade three, etc.). The teachers in each grade coordinated each year to have those subjects at the same time of the day so I could advance and learn with classmates in a subject area where I excelled, but still had my "roots" in a classroom with kids my own age. It was a specific solution that involved some between-grade coordination, but resulted in a firm grounding with "my" classmates -and- the chance to progress at a faster level in the subjects where it was necessary. Another solution for some kids where skipping a whole grade might not be ideal for their social development.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: what an interesting story. my e-mail address is mathewsj@washpost.com. please message me and tell me where exactly and when that happened.

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Vienna, Va.: What are your thoughts on non coeducational learning environments?

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie here: i think for some children, single-sex schools are terrific. depends on the kid, depends on the school.

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Virginia: How do you think this grade system compares on an international scale to other systems? Do you know how it's percieved around the globe? Thanks.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: our system is not that different from what you find in other parts of the world. in poorer countries, students don't start in school quite as early as they do here, and often leave school in most cases before our kids do. but in the developed world, the grade system is pretty universal with some cultural and national twists such as the european notion that the last two grades of what we call high school is really college prep.

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Reston, Va.: What are the chances of having classes in logic for young minds? They need to learn before they vote that there's a fallacy in saying "All poodles are dogs, therefore all dogs are poodles."

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay: i haven't watched a geometry course in action since i took it myself in the summer of 1960, and even then i was spending much more time on the golf course than i was doing my homework. that was my only brush with formal logic, and i thought it was pretty interesting but i have been told that formal proofs of that sort are not so popular in today's geometry classes. there are some old-line curricula in very old private and catholic schools that still emphasize logic, and i wish there was more of it.
valerie here: seems to me that with all of the cross-breeding with poodles, that all dogs today have some poodle in them. no?

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Baltimore again: Thanks for answering my question -- just to clarify, the "private school" I am talking about is the Montessori school she is currently in, which goes through 5th grade and is designed to address children individually. I agree that I certainly wouldn't expect a standard private school to necessarily be any better than a standard public school! Come 6th grade, who knows?!?!

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: then you are right on top of it! let us know what happens. mathewsj@washpost.com

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Washington, D.C.: Why we can't have school end. And with one week off. Amd start summer school? It's hard to find child care for a nine year old who goes to school. We don't know any child care providers, all summer camps are over priced, and very few start when school closes.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: the scheduling problems of modern school systems are annoying but they are pretty far down on the list of the most important issues we face.

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Monroe, Mich.: I was a Head Start student and I feel this program aided me tremendously in my academic career. As a Black male, I am deeply disturbed by the apathetic attitude many young Black boys take towards education. Many of these academic poor performers will rotate in and out of the U.S. prison system. I have witnessed, firsthand, how education is discouraged as a "white" thing in the Black community. Black kids who do well in school are criticized by their peers and pushed toward rap and basketball careers by both their family and the negative stereotypes of Blacks pushed into our households by the Black Entertainment Network (BET). Do you see any solution for this troubling phenomenon?

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay here: this isn't a black problem or a white problem. it's a cultural problem for americans whose parents don't have much money and didn't go to college. it is hard for a child growing up in a family like that to see the advantages of middle class behavior and expectations because their families did not experience those advantages themselves. there are a growing number of schools, my favorite being the aforementioned KIPP schools, who have taken your point very seriously and spend enormous amounts of time when children arrive,and then on a regular basis throughout the year, encouraging attendance, persistence, good manners and self-expression. those schools are working very well, producing not only good students but very competent and self-confident young people. but this really is, as you say, the great challenge of public education today.

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Berwyn Heights, Md.: I sure hope that the public school systems figure out how to facilitate grade-skipping. My daughter is a fast learner and socially advanced, so skipping a grade would not be a problem. My wife and I tried to get her placed ahead in elementary school with no success. In both 2nd grade and 5th grade (in 2 different elementary schools with 2 different principals), I got the principals to admit what I knew was the real obstacle to her skipping a grade -- they wanted her test scores for that grade. I was grateful for their honesty, but I resent the PG County public school criteria that puts principals in the position of having to favor test scores over individual achievement.

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: jay: thanks for telling us. you are absolutely right.

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Harrisburg, Pa.: I have made this statement on several occasions and have found it interesting how some school administrators argue it is impossible to implement while others tell me there are schools doing exactly this and that they find it works well. To me, one of the solutions to a major education problem is simple and obvious: it is not leave no child behind, but pass no child before the child is ready.

The concept is simple. All home rooms and all official general grade levels are assigned according to age, so children do not feel stigmatized. All basic courses are taught schoolwide during the same time periods. The child attends the grade level for each course that is appropriate for that child. Many children will be ahead in some subjects and behind in others. No child is promoted to the next level in a subject until proficient at the current level. Thus, for example, a home room grade level 5 child may be taking level 4 Math, level 6 English, and level 5 Science.

Why do we fail students for entire years in all subjects, or pass them ahead in all subjects? Both failed and excellent students get bored with the subjects they've already mastered, so why do we force them to remain in these classes?

Isn't this a simple solution to a major problem?

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: valerie: we think this is a terrific idea that would require schools to allow teachers in different grades to cooperate more actively.

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Washington, D.C.: Do you think schools within the United States, particularly DC/MD/VA area schools - have done a better job teaching our children different languages? Let's face it - we all should learn a little Spanish in this country. What about language immersion programs?

Valerie Strauss and Jay Mathews: Valerie here: teaching a foreign language is a tough assignment for any school. i can't say whether the greater washington d.c. area has done a better job than others. clearly our country faces a challenge, considering the fbi still doesn't have enough translators in key languages. language immersion programs can be a wonderful option, but there are different kinds, some of which have been shown by research to be more effective than others. furthermore, it is important that a child stick with the program.
Jay and I thank you all for your interesting questions. See you next time!

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