PBS American Masters: Woody Guthrie 'Ain't Got No Home'

Featuring the life and career of musician, writer and artist, Woody Guthrie, the American Masters documentary"Ain't Got No Home" examines how he used his talents to document American history.

Producer Peter Frumkin and Author Ed Cray were online Thursday, July 13, at noon ET to discuss their film and the life and work of Woody Guthrie.

Guthrie was best known for his ballads about a floundering America during the time between the Great Depression and World War II. These songs not only gave voice to what much of America was feeling, but they also roused a sense of patriotism.

"Ain't Got No Home" aired on Wednesday, July 12 at 9 p.m. ET on PBS. (Check local listings. )

The transcript follows.

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Richmond, Va.: Gentlemen, I was curious as to how far the film goes in portraying and outlining Mr. Guthrie's political leanings. I was wondering about the irony in his work, seeing as how "This Land Is Your Land" is considered a national classic, but the original is in fact a critique of class disparity and private land ownership, as well as an appreciation of the country's beauty. Whose idea was it to censor the "lost verses" of "This Land Is Your Land" and how did that come about?

Also, to any Woody fans out there, the Smithsonian Folkways recordings are a great compendium of his work. Excellent stuff.

Ed Cray: Woody wrote "This Land" in the bitter cold of a February day in NYC as a response to the saccharine "God Bless America," then the popular hit of the day as sung by Kate Smith. Yes, Woody wrote two verses that he later struck from the manuscript, and changed the chorus. (You can see a reproduction of Woody's ms. in the great collection of Woody Gee's writing, "Pastures of Plenty." The point is the two verses he killed were bitter, and so unlike Woody's usual stance of optimistic liberalism (if I may use that much abused word). The irony may be gone, but the patriotism remains.

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Peter Frumkin: Good afternoon. Thanks very much for all the questions. Before we begin to answer them there are a few acknowledgements I'd like to make. First, the PBS American Masters series. Executive Producer Susan Lacy and the entire staff was truly great to work with and I'm proud to have the film as part of their stellar series. Then to the National Endowment of Humanities and the National Endowment of the Arts, without whom the film would not have been possible. And finally to Ed Cray who has been tremendously helpful over the past several years.

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Lakeland, Fla.: Did you get a sense when developing the stuff about the comedic element to Woody's radio work that he was influenced by fellow NE Oklahoman Will Rogers, whose cowboy-in-NYC persona was a major force on radio, stage and screen before his death in 1935?

Ed Cray: Woody admired Will Rogers, so much so that he wanted to name his first-born son after him. Mary put her foot down and insisted the boy be named BILL Rogers Guthrie.

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Rockville, Md.: It's obvious that Woody Guthrie was a one-of-a-kind talent as a populist songwriter and performer. Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen, among others, carried on Guthrie's tradition after he left the scene. In contemporary music, though, are there any young singer-songwriters (under age 35, say) that especially remind you of Guthrie?

Ed Cray: Unfortunately, I do not follow what is erroneously labeled "folk music" so I would beg off. Peter?

Peter Frumkin: I tend to follow folk music locally in New England and I don't know many of the national acts. But I see Woody's influence in many of the artists I see around here. I think Woody is all over the place on one form or another.

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Harrisburg, Pa.: What were the inspirations that Woody provided to Arlo? I note that Arlo's children perform with him, so there does seem to be a strong family connection to continuing the musical tradition. In fact, I remember Arlo telling the story of how, once in concert, he forgot the words to a song and he turned to his children to continue the song, and they indicated they didn't know what the words were, either. His punch line was "well, I knew the words to all of my father's songs."

Ed Cray: In an interview with me as I was writing "Ramblin' Man," Arlo told me he never had an adult conversation with his father -- a statement I find terribly revealing and poignant. My guess is that Arlo followed the mythic Woody rather than the real man into performing. About the only thing I think Arlo learned from his father was the adoption of a stage persona. Arlo, born in Brooklyn, given speech lessons by an Englishwoman to eradicate the accent, bar mitzvahed on the Lower East Side, somehow acquired an Oklahoma drawl! At home, I am told by a daughter, he speaks unaccented English with good grammar.

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Cincinnati, Ohio: Mr. Frumkin,

Congratulations and thanks for this beautiful, powerful program. I have read that some photos and archival footage in the film are extremely rare, and some were only recently discovered. How did you get these materials?

Peter Frumkin: We looked for material over a period of four or five years and had people researching in archives all over the country. There's a lot of great material to be found if you go looking for it and if you look hard enough.

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Maplewood, N.J.: Hi Mr. Cray,

I enjoyed reading your biography a couple of years ago. Can you comment on one irony about Woody. Here was a man who didn't have money, a steady recording contract or national fame, yet has become an American legend. Meanwhile, many of his richer contemporary musicians (Glenn Miller, the Dorseys, the Andrew Sisters) have faded from American memory. Can you comment on this?

Thanks.

Ed Cray: Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, Artie Shaw and company did not have Pete Seeger touring the country, never failing to include one, two or three of Woody's songs in his many, many appearances during the years of the blacklist.

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Fairfax, Va.: Do you think that his son, Arlo has followed in his fathers tracks or attempted to become more of a mainstream musician and entertainer rather than a politically oriented songwriter? Were any of the comments or rumors about Woody's political connections to communist party organizations correct or just an artifact of the '50s MaCarthy-era hysteria?

Peter Frumkin: I think Arlo has been just as dedicated to his own path and his own beliefs as his father was. A few times he's achieved some commercial success but that takes nothing away from either his talent or his beliefs. You should also consider that the music industry is very different now than it was when Woody performing. As to Woody's connections to the Communist Party, he was certainly connected to it. He wrote for their newspapers, performed at their meetings and rallys and held many beliefs in commons with them. A the same time, I don't believe he was ever formally a member. Ed can you add to this?

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Borger, Tex.: As written, THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND contains a caustic

verse about private property. What was the journey this song took

to becoming a folk standard and when and how was this

verse left out? (The Mose Asch version that contains it is

technically flawed - was this a contributing factor?)

Ed Cray: Pete Seeger must get all credit for teaching "This Land" to the nation.

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Columbus, Ohio: One of the things that I find interesting about Guthrie but do not know much about are his roots. I understand (perhaps mistakenly) that his parents were racist and active in the KKK and yet he went on to be a champion of the common man and also work closely with a number of African-Americans including Leadbelly. Could you address this aspect of his background a bit and the development of his views on race.

Ed Cray: I suspect that Woody's father and mother were no more or less racist than their neighbors. Oklahoma was a segregated state. There was at least one notorious lynching not far from Okemah. But early on, Woody seems to have become friendly with a black shoeshine young man who taught Woody to play harmonica. (Incidentally, I suggest he was rather better on that instrument than on the guitar.) And once the family was cast onto hard times, he came to understand whites too could be outcasts. No doubt it had an effect on the youth.

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Asheville, N.C.: I got the sense from the film that you wanted to present Woody as a sort of renaissance man with so many talents. His prose, essays, letters, paintings, radio work, public involvement (politics, labor, civil rights)all were presented more equally with his music and lyrics. Was this portrayal deliberate? While his music and lyrics will be sung for centuries, his other work gives a more complete picture of a complex man.

Peter Frumkin: It was my intention to present Guthrie as a complex multi-talented person. It's quite a powerful experience to sift through his papers and see what a deep and interesting mind he had. Music is a popular form but some of his other work is equally as interesting.

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re Arlo: He did a PBS documentary 22 years ago on Woody titled "Hard Travelin.'" He said at the time that his intent was to remove the image of his father from the folk world more toward the pop or commercial country world. Did that documentary have much of an impact on y'all?

Ed Cray: Not on me. In this case, Arlo was a secondary source. I prefer to use only primary sources when I write.

Peter Frumkin: I saw the film and very much enjoyed it, but I set out to make a different film.

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Southern Md.: Would you put the 'glitter folk' music of the 1960's (Kingston Trio, Joanie Phoney Baez, Judy Collins) in the same category of the Depression-era folks like Woodie and Leadbelly and Pete Seeger? There was a reincarnation of liberal protest songs mixed up with college Ivy Leaguers and that stuff Judy Collins sang in the early '60s. Everybody who could strum a guitar thought they could sing. I don't know if you can put such music into categories. 'If folks sing it, it's folk music.'

Ed Cray: As much as I admire Judy Collins -- let's not talk about the Kingston Trio -- I prefer her singing Leonard Cohen. Give Ms. Baez and so many others who sang out to protest the war in Vietnam due credit. They were doing exactly what Woody, Pete, Bess and the rest of the Almanacs were doing in 1940 and '41.

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Bloomfield Hills, Mich.: As Woody Guthrie fathered eight or nine children and there is a 50/50 risk of inheriting Huntington Ds., how many of his children do have the disease?

Ed Cray: Woody's two oldest, Gwendolyn and Sue, both died of HD at the age of 41. Mary Boyle cared for them in their last years, which, she told me, were particularly difficult -- a descent into hell. Bill Rogers Guthrie died in an auto accident at the age of 21 on, ironically, Route 66 in the Los Angeles area. Of course, Cathy Ann died at age four. so like Bill, we cannot know if she carried the gene. Arlo, Joady and Nora are free of the disease. The last child, by Anneke, was killed, I am told in an auto accident at the age of 18 -- so again we cannot know if she had the death-dealing gene.

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Granbury, Tex.: Thank you for a very informative and beautiful program. Woody became a part of my life about 1970 through the Alan Lomax recordings. I wish he were here today to voice his view of what is being done to our country and working people.

Ed Cray: So do I.

Peter Frumkin: And I.

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Washington, D.C.: How difficult (or easy) was it to get people to consent to interviews for the documentary? I was pleasantly surprised to see Jim Longhi, Woody's sis and his first wife interviewed. But I hoped to hear from Dylan (as did The Post's reviewer, it seems), and I was surprised there was nothing from Arlo or Ramblin Jack Elliott. It is in interesting that Ramblin Jack's version of Car Song is being used in a TV commercial. I wonder what Woody would have thought about that.

Peter Frumkin: People we wanted to interview were generally very open and gracious about talking to us once they were sure that we approached them, and Woody, with respect.

Ed Cray: I had the same experience gathering interviews for my biography, "Ramblin' Man."

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Providence, R.I.: One post-script to "Ain't Got No Home" that people may find interesting and timely. Sadly, the prognosis for people suffering from Huntington's Disease is no better today than it was when Woody was diagnosed with it. However, Huntington's is one of the neurological diseases for which embryonic stem cell research offers the first real hope for a treatment.

Ed Cray: All the more reason we must find the funds to support stem cell research, wouldn't you say.

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Cortez, Colo.: Do you know where I could see those verses? My grandparents were from Oklahoma but didn't share my enthusiasm for Woody Gutherie--said he was a communist. Did he ever say he was a communist?

Peter Frumkin: I'm assuming you're talking about the lesser known verses to "This Land..." I believe they're fairly widely available on the web.

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Cleveland, Ohio: I only recently learned that Woody Guthrie's song "Jesus Christ" was an adaptation of the earlier folk song "Jesse James". Do you have an insight as to what inspired Mr. Guthrie to re-write the words?

Ed Cray: Woody was intensely religious -- in a non-denominational way -- and never one to suffer hypocrisy. Hence "Jesus Christ."

Peter Frumkin: Woody was casting Jesus as a populist hero. As Ed said, Woody thought a lot about religion and spirituality, and also fundamental issues of right and wrong. He also "borrowed" an a lot of songs and re-wrote them to his purpose.

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Brooklyn, N.Y.: I had no idea how prolific Woody Guthrie was. All those hand-made drawings...miles and miles of manuscript pages and journal entries...and of course, his song catalog...do you know if he was ever diagnosed as obsessive-compulsive? Or was he just a creative and high-energy talent?

Ed Cray: My wife, a practicing therapist, says, "The latter."

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Baton Rouge, La.: Hearing stories about Woody's life, I was surprised in the film to discover that he had something close to "fame." He came across as enigmatic.

Peter Frumkin: It wasn't all THAT close to fame! He brushed with minor fame a couple of times but was usually popular within a limited circle. The first time any of his songs became widely known was when the Weavers recorded them in the early '50s.

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Columbia, Mo.: Who were the narrators on the Woody Guthrie program?

It was a great program!!! But nothing on the Jewish aspect, especially life with the Jewish grandmother.

Peter Frumkin: The Actor Peter Coyote was the narrator.

Woody did have a rich relationship with his mother-in-law and carried on a rich conversation with her about Judaism. Sadly we had to pass over a great deal of interesting information in the film.

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Lawton, Okla.: I saw that you'd interviewed Mary Jo, Woody's sister, in the program last night. When we toured the Pampa Texas sites with her 2 1/2 years ago she seemed somewhat less than objective about Woody and their father during the Pampa years. Her husband had some pretty good Woody stories when we visited with him at the Woody Guthrie festival in Okemah the next summer. Have you had a chance to glean his insights? He struck me as a little more objective about Woody than Mary Jo is about her big brother.

Ed Cray: Mary Jo is a marvelous woman, enthusiastic to a fault, to be sure, but she was very candid in interviews with me. Her husband tended to defer to her. Lovely people, both.

Peter Frumkin: My experience as well. Mary Jo is a wonderful woman with a great spirit. And while she does see the good in everything, see can also see the truth.

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Kansas City, Mo.: Just a comment: I really loved the film...I wanted to share an article I read about the Unemployed Exchange Association, a cooperative group that "served the needs of some 150,000 people" in California in the 1930s... the article is from Yes Magazine.

I just wanted to share this because I think that part of the myth of Capitalism vs. Communism is perpetuated in stories depicting the Great Depression that leave out the positive aspects... we usually don't hear about those- why? Although Guthrie's heroism is one of those positive outcomes...

Thanks!

Ed Cray: The best history of the Depression I have found is Irving Bernstein's three-volume study. Arthur Schlesinger Jr.'s "The Coiming of the New Deal" is also valuable.

With one-quarter of the work force out of work, wages depressed, popular revolt threatening, what was so positive?

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Alabama: The Post criticized the film for not adequately addressing Guthrie's impact on Bob Dylan, or featuring any interviews with Dylan. What's your response?

Peter Frumkin: It's best to not argue with critics! Doing justice to Woody's legacy and to Woody's effect on Dylan and a whole generation of artist would have been very difficult. It's a complex set of issues and deserves a film unto itself. Dylan declined to appear in this film.

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Baltimore, Md.: I taped the program last night and will watch it this evening, so forgive me if you did cover this ground in your film.

Did you give any consideration/footage to Cisco Houston, who was both Woody's singing partner and, frankly, his protector when they served in the Merchant Marine. Cisco was a beautiful singer and a ridiculously good looking man (George Clooney/Clark Gable good looking) who is not much remembered today. He died of cancer at age 42 in 1961, right before the "folk boom" that would have revered him as Guthrie's closest pal.

Harold Leventhal, who ran the Guthrie Children's Trust Fund and was Cisco's manager, said that when Houston got his diagnosis of cancer, he walked into Leventhal's office and said with a smile, "Well, you're going to lose a good client." Puzzled, Leventhal asked why and Cisto said, "Well, the doctor just told me I have three to six months to live." He was evidently marvelously stoic through it all.

Ed Cray: Cisco visited Woody before leaving NYC to die in California. He walked into Woody's hospital room, stuck out his hand, and said, "So long, pardner," then left.

I have tears in my eyes as I write this sad epitaph for Gilbert "Cisco" Houston of Eagle Rock, California.

Peter Frumkin: We do discuss Cisco. The wonderful Bess Hawes refers to him as Woody's best singing partner. Based on the recordings I've heard, I agree.

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Bethesda, Md.: Are there any titles you can suggest where one can find a good collection of Woody's articles from the socialist/communist publications, or journals?

Sorry to say that I missed the film last night. Will it be re-airing any time soon here in the DC area? Or will it be available on DVD?

Ed Cray: Grosset and Dunlap in 1975 published a paperback collection of Guthrie's columns from the "People's World" and "Daily Worker" under the title of "Woody Sez." It is out of print, but I suspect you can find a copy in a used book store or certainly online.

Peter Frumkin: The program will be rebroadcast. If you go to www.pbs.org and look for the American Masters pages, they'll help you with a local schedule.

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Falls Church, Va.: As to the question about Communism, I recall reading that, while Guthrie was clearly sympathetic to Communist ideals (at least in the '30s), he was not permitted to join the Party because he refused to renounce religion. I have no idea whether this is truth or legend, so take it with a grain of salt.

Ed Cray: Woody was never a member of the CPUSA. In California, no one bothered to ask him to join, and in NYC he was considered too unreliable. As Bess Hawes asked me rhetorically, "Could you see Woody Guthrie selling the "Daily Worker" on the streets of Brooklyn?"

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Menlo Park, Calif.: Condensing a life as large as Woody's into a single documentary must have been difficult. What parts of Woody's life would you have included if the documentary ran longer?

Peter Frumkin: There were many many great stories that we had to leave out. There are many of his interests that we could not include in the show. With more time I would like to have explored the process by which the man became an icon. And indeed with more time I might have explored more about his legacy. Woody's life was indeed very very difficult to condense and film requires simplification. If you'd like more detail, I'd recommend Ed's great book, "Ramblin' Man."

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Stamford, Conn.: America's interest in and embrace of "folk" music seems to wax and wane every generation or so. How would you explain that?

Is it accurate to say Woody start it all? Are we in the midst of a "folk" resurgence now, thanks in part to Springsteen's very public homage to Pete Seeger?

Peter Frumkin: America's interest in everything seems to wax and wane! My sense is that folk music (whatever that is) is in a very good place right now, and has been for at least 10 or 15 years. There's a lot of great music out there.

Did Woody start it all? It depends on what "it" is. There was certainly a rich vein of rural music long before Woody Guthrie but he did take it in a particular direction, and did come to embody one strain of American music.

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Rohrersville, Md.: Great, moving piece! One complaint (though probably not with you): the credits rolled so fast at the end, it was impossible to make anything out . . . and the PBS.org Web site doesn't link to credits for the film. It would be really nice to be able to track some of the music . . . such as the group singing This Land at the conclusion.

Ed Cray: I agree. I wanted to see my name up in lights. My wife wanted to see the rest of the cast and crew.

Ed Cray: I hit a send button by mistake. I had intended to add that my wife wanted to see the cast and crew credits. (She had already heard enough about MY participation.)

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Missoula, Mont.: Given their nearly-identical Okey roots, did you guys find any connection between Woodie and Will Rogers? And what did Woody have to say about Steinbeck?

Ed Cray: In re: Rogers, see my earlier reply.

Woody knew Steinbeck in Hollywood in 1938-39 during the filming of "The Grapes of Wrath." He also spent that summer traveling with Steinbeck to first the Imperial Valley and then the San Joaquin, distributing food with the Steinbeck Committee to Aid Farm Workers. Woody's "Tom Joad," of course, was based on Nunnelly Johnson's much condensed script for the film, and not on the novel itself. Woody, however, had read the novel in Los Angeles, though he said he saw the film twice and then wrote the 17-verse "Tom Joad" on demand for the RCA recording session in June, 1940.

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Little Rock, Ariz.: Woody is being inducted into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame this year. Long overdue, but I sort of think he would dismiss it is irrelevant, not necessarily a place where the common folk are celebrated. Any idea how he would have responded to this, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and the more recent tributes?

Peter Frumkin: Woody went back and forth between wanting acknowledgement/"success" and not wanting to be controlled by it. He was utterly unpredictable so I wouldn't hazard a guess as to how he would react to anything!

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Atlantic City, N.J.: Are there Web sites that you'd recommend to learn more about Woody and your film? I'm intrigued thanks to the show!

Peter Frumkin: Go to www.pbs.org and look for the American Masters pages and then to the pages for this film. There you'll find a number of links including one to the Woody Guthrie Archive.

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Brooklyn, N.Y.: Why such a sad ending.....I'm left in despair and crying. Yet, I

know that truth is what it is and there's no remedy for

it...still I hope....

Peter Frumkin: Woody's end was beyond sad. But he was a remarkably optimistic person for much of his life. And I think he leaves us with a message of optimism and activism and doing those things in which you believe. He's tragic end doesn't negate that.

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Caledonia, N.Y.: I enjoyed Ain't Got No Home last night on PBS. Who was it singing "This Land is Your Land" at the close of the film?

Peter Frumkin: It was from an album called "Woody Guthrie's American Song" on Cleveland International Records.

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Peter Frumkin: I'm afraid I need to move on. But thanks very much for your questions and thanks to the Post for hosting this.

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