PBS Wide Angle: '18 with a Bullet'

Co-producer Erin Chapman and director Ricardo Pollack were online Wednesday, July 12, at 11 a.m. ET to discuss their PBS Wide Angle film, "18 with a Bullet," a look inside the Salvadoran gangs that have imported L.A. gang culture and inflicted violence throughout El Salvador. In the 1990s, thousands of Salvadorans living in the U.S. illegally were deported back to a country fresh from a long civil war. Recruiting teenagers, the gangs soon engaged in dangerous turf battles and reprisals that have contributed to El Salvador's unusually high per capita murder rate. Named after Los Angeles's 18th street, the notorious "18" gang controls entire portions of San Salvador, despite the efforts of the government. "18 with a Bullet" examines the life of its members and the violent cycle of gang life in El Salvador.

PBS Wide Angle's "18 With a Bullet" aired Tuesday, July 11, at 9 p.m. ET (check local listings).

Read The Post's preview: PBS Street Gang Documentary Pulls No Punches , ( Post, July 11, 2006 )

The transcript follows.

Co-producer Erin Chapman joined Thirteen/WNET New York in 2000 and is currently a coordinating producer for the award-winning foreign affairs series, Wide Angle. With the strand since its launch in 2002, she has covered topics as diverse as the Colombian cocaine trade, the election of Pope Benedict XVI, and an Emmy-winning look at women rebuilding post-genocide Rwanda.

Director Ricardo Pollack , who lived in San Salvador for eight months to make "18 with a Bullet," has produced and directed several feature-length drama documentaries for the BBC, including Accused, about a satanic abuse scare in the Orkney Islands of Scotland, and 55 Days: The Fall of Saigon, about the final days of America's presence in Vietnam.

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Erin Chapman: Hi Everyone,

I'd like to welcome you to The Washington Post's Web chat on the Wide Angle program, "18 with a Bullet" that aired last evening on PBS. Filmmaker Ricardo Pollack and I will be answering your questions on this riveting film and the Wide Angle series. While you're online, please feel free to check out our Web site  that includes the full transcript of our interview with Ambassador Anne Patterson, as well as expanded context for the film.

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Washington, D.C.: Thanks for the great film. You must have been faced with a tough decision when Slappy told you that he was about to kill someone the next day. While he probably didn't give you details about the attack, did you (or do you now) ever debate if you should have gone to the police? Given that going to the police would have jeopardized the entire film and would have been viewed as the ultimate betrayal (saving the life of a Mara member at the expense of 18th Street), I can understand why you didn't. What were your thoughts when you realized they were probably going to kill someone the next day?

Thanks.

Ricardo Pollack: That's a good question - there were lots of ethical issues that we had to deal with in the making of the film, and we were very stringent about them. A lot of the gang members would brag the whole time about going on a kill - usually it was just bragging and they wouldn't do anything. Of course sometimes they would, and I had no way of knowing when they would go through with it. Also, they were never specific about what they were going to do - it was always very vague. For that reason I was never in a situation where I felt I had to go to the police - I would have had to do it almost every day, and as you say, it would have been impossible to make the film. Of course I never went with them on a mission, or to rob people, despite regularly being invited along. That was a strict rule we had on the shoot.

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Arlington, Va.: How did you manage to have these gang members give you such unrestricted access?

Ricardo Pollack: It took a long time to get the access. I spent two months initially just getting to know them, without any filming. I then spent 6 months filming. That length of time allowed me to build up a trust, and get the intimate, personally portraits I hope the film achieves

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Washington, D.C.: What were your thoughts on comments after the film from the former ambassador of El Salvador concerning the root causes of gang formation in El Salvador? I believe she said that mass immigration, and thus family disintegration was the primary contributing factor. What do you think?

Ricardo Pollack: I think family disintegration is an important factor - many of the kids I got to know had parents who lived in the U.S.. But there are other factors too - the deportation of gang members in the early '90s to El Salvador was crucial in getting the gang started in the first place. Add to that a country awash with weapons from a decade old civil war and you had a lethal cocktail

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Alexandria, Va.: I can understand why the problem of gangs exists in places like El Salvador, and from a development perspective, it's heartbreaking because each of these boys has the potential to be great contributors to their society. I wish the U.S. would do more to assist its friends to the south. I will be traveling to Salvador this year, and I am wondering what type of impact the gangs have on tourism in San Salvador and the countryside. Specifically, are tourists or non-natives intensely targeted (for scams, shakedowns, or murders?) Or do these gangs largely just maim and kill each other, and leave non-affiliated people alone? Thank you.

Ricardo Pollack: I think the gangs largely target each other - but be careful in San Salvador. There's a lot of crime in many parts of the city. Other parts thought are okay - just watch where you go

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Newark, Del.: Hi guys, do you think these gangs would be as organized or pervasive without the influence of deportees from the states? The former ambassador seemed to scoff at the suggestion that deporting these youths without any attempt at rehabilitation wasn't a factor in gang creation.

Ricardo Pollack: It was the deportees that created the gangs in the first place. Slappy was one of the first 18th streeters in san Salvador. As he says in the film, they jumped in a lot of local teenagers and made them into homeboys. I think that says it all

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Arlington, Va.: Did you have any personally scary moments while filming this documentary?

Ricardo Pollack: Not really - I spent a long time getting the trust of the people I was filming with and I never felt threatened by them. The only danger was being caught in inter gang crossfire. Luckily that never happened

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Washington, D.C.: Great show - quick question - at any time during the filming did you feel that your safety was in danger?

Ricardo Pollack: Thanks - as I said to a previous question, trust was everything in the making of this film. The subjects I filmed with never made me feel in danger. The only time I felt nervous was in areas I didn't know - where I didn't know the local gang members. We would be viewed with great suspicion, so we always had to take someone from the gang for the introductions. Not getting hurt was largely due to being very careful

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 Knoxville, Tenn.: This was a great, very insightful documentary. I would like to show it in a college course I will be teaching. Will it be available on DVD or VHS?

Erin Chapman:

Thank you for the complement. Ricardo produced a powerful film that we felt was very important to share with our American audience.

Wide Angle programs, including last night's "18 with a Bullet" episode are available for educational use and can be purchased from a company called Films Media Group. If you go to our series Web site's FAQ section you'll find a link to their company.

You can also check with your local station to see if they'll be re-airing the program. If so, you could record the episode and use in your classroom for one year.

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Derwood, Md.: Hello,

I saw the film last night and thought it was terrific. Very interesting and well made documentary.

I think what struck me most about the film was normal, descent and friendly and well spoken the gang members were compared one's preconceived notions. It was quite obvious to me that these guys would be normal, industrious and productive members of society if they were given the right opportunities.

Any thoughts or comments on this?

Thanks.

Ricardo Pollack: Thanks for you comments on the film. What you said was exactly what I wanted to show. These kids do very bad things, but in many other ways they are just like kids we might know. Their circumstances have made them into who they are. I wanted to show how, if you have very little structure and moral guidance, murder can become an easy line to cross. That I think is the great tragedy of the situation

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Charlottesville, Va.: The show didn't air in my television market but I am extremely interested in the movie. Where can I purchase a copy?

Erin Chapman: The program is not currently available for individual purchase, but might be in the near future. The best way to check in is to leave feedback on our Web site.

Someone should get back to you with a potential release date.

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Adelphi, Md.: After spending so much time with this gang, at any point were you convinced in becoming a member? What tactics do they use to brainwash there members?

Ricardo Pollack: No, I was never tempted to join the gang! As I hope the film shows, its a tragic desperate life, miles away from the glamorous cliches sometimes portrayed as gang life. I don't think they have specific brainwashing tactics. Its more that in a particular neighborhood, vulnerable children with few positive role models come under the influence of a local gangsters. If they are young, as they often are, they are very impressionable. Its easy to convince a 14 year old that the gang is "cool" - which as the life of Slappy shows, it really isn't.

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Aspenhill, Md.: What other strategies does de Government in El Salvador uses in trying to solve the Gang problem? Other than the use of police force. Thanks.

Ricardo Pollack: Very little. I didn't see much evidence of programs to stop children joining the gang -and that's what needs to be done. They join so young that you have to get to them before the gang does

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Washington, D.C.: Hi Ricardo, an incredible film you've made here. I'd like to ask you about access and how you gained access to the gangs and to filming in the country. Did you have to gain approval through government/police organizations to film?

Ricardo Pollack: I didn't need any approval from official sources. The important thing was getting the gang to agree! At one point I had to convince the leadership of 18 in prison - ten of the toughest guys in the gang - to let me film with them. For three hours they grilled me on why they should take part. I argued simply that I wanted to show life as it was, rather than the two dimensional views you usually saw about gangs, and for that I'd need to be able to film whatever I saw. Eventually I convinced them, but it was a tough.

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Astoria, N.Y.: I thought you did a very good job with your film, and I was struck by how casually these guys seemed about throwing their lives away.

I thought the film did a good job of striking a balance; portraying complex individuals without judgment; yet I didn't leave the feeling thinking that these gang members were one counselor or social program away from a productive life. They struck me as pretty incorrigible and hardcore. Particularly when Slappy's girlfriend/wife tells him she thinks he enjoys that lifestyle.

Ricardo Pollack: I think you are right - by the time they reach Slappy's age and have done what he's done, its hard for them to change. More can be done though to stop children joining the gang in the first place

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Washington, D.C.: Hi!

I thought the documentary was excellent. I was really quite surprised at the access you had to the gang-did any of the gang members express reservations about being filmed? Considering the huge Salvadoran population here in the U.S., especially in this area, I would think it might have been a concern that people here might see these individuals on TV and word would get back to El Salvador and have serious ramifications for them. Thanks for taking my question.

Ricardo Pollack: They didn't really have reservations about being filmed. I think they generally feel that no one ever portrays their lives as they really are - or the problem as the complex one that it is. They felt it was important to do so. I was also there for so long that after a while they didn't even notice I was there - that is key for this sort of intimate portrait

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Falls Church, Va.: Was there ever any noticeable differences as far as respect or status for those members of the gang that had been part of the same gang in the U.S. and were deported back to El Salvador? Was there a certain bond between two homeboys that had been in the U.S. together and come back to their country?

Ricardo Pollack: There was a bond between the U.S. homeboys, and some of them did have a higher status as they tended to be older. But some of the leaders in the prison were born and bred in El Salvador, so there was a real mixture. In the prison there was a bit of conflict between the U.S. and non U.S. homies. The non U.S. ones hated it when the U.S. guys spoke English to each other - I'd say there was definitely some tension

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Washington, D.C.: Most of the questions so far have focused on the sociological aspects of MS-13, as did most of your documentary. Did you get a sense researching the film whether the gang is evolving into a genuine organized crime syndicate, with hierarchical controls, reinvestment of illicit profits from crime, or infiltrating legitimate industry?

Ricardo Pollack: I didn't get a sense of that. From what I saw, no one was making big money - it was more petty theft and small scale drug dealing. But that was just my experience - it's not something I've researched

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Pomona, Calif.: I am a Salvadoran-American from Southern California who is a sophomore at Stanford University majoring in Political Science. I am absolutely sick and tired of hearing about MS-13. Can you please present a story about successful Salvadoran Americans for a change? I know it doesn't get viewers like a story of minorities killing people like barbarians with machetes, but maybe it can better serve to progress the Salvadoran community in the United States and in El Salvador by displaying achievements? Just a though...

Erin Chapman: An interesting question, thanks. Obviously, there are many Salvadoran-Americans who make valuable and positive contributions on a daily basis both to the U.S. and to El Salvador. I'd agree with our interview guest, Asst. Secretary of State Anne Patterson, that the country has made some immense strides in the post-Civil War period, especially in the face of natural disasters, U.S. immigration policy, etc. One of the reasons we include interview segments following our documentaries is to broaden out from the film and get some sort of context for the slice of life we've just presented.

However, I think you'll agree that gang presence in El Salvador (and several other Latin American countries) is an important issue - with relevance and bearing on U.S. foreign policy. It is never our intention to glorify violence or gang membership. Therefore, I would beg to differ with your comment that the characters in "18 with a Bullet" are presented as "minorities killing people like barbarians." Ricardo crafted a very human portrait of the film's subjects. As he mentioned in a previous chat response, it seems obvious that the circumstances facing these kids in their daily reality have played a big part in determining the opportunities and choices presented to them. If you haven't actually seen the film, I hope you'll check your local station to see if it's re-airing. It might present a different image of gang life that you've seen in previous programs. Best of luck with your studies.

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Rockville, Md.: The story was very terrific. It takes a lot to go to a different country and ask gang members if you could film them. What made you want to film this story about 18? Did you ever feel like you wanted to help these guys out in anyway?

Ricardo Pollack: I wanted to do this story because I felt that gangs are portrayed either as glamorous or painted as one dimensional monsters. Neither are anywhere near the truth. As I learnt making the film, being in a gang is a often a tragic life choice. There's nothing glamorous about it. I also wanted to explore what it is that makes it easy for someone to kill - what turns a normal teenager into a killer. I learnt the reasons were complex, but that if in your moral code killing was normal, then it was an easy line to cross. I wanted to look at all these complex moral issues in the making of the film, by looking at the day to day life of a group of gang members. As for wanting to help them - I did want to with some of the younger ones but realised it was impossible. The best I could do was document what I saw in the hope that it might help things to change

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Alexandria, Va.: Despite them not being real family members did it strike you how the gang had become a family and carried that type of mentality? Thank you

Ricardo Pollack: The gang was their family - they all told me that time and time again

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Va.: Was there ever any conflicts between Charlie disciplining older, more experienced homeboys such as Slappy? I would have a tough time swallowing a punishment from a 16-year old at age 35.

Ricardo Pollack: Slappy knew Charlie was in charge and respected that. But it was strange to see a 16 year old disciplining a 30 year old in that way

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Washington, D.C.: Being that El Salvador is small. Did you happen to run into any MS members while with 18th Street members? If you what was the result, is it always violent? Thank you, sir

Ricardo Pollack: Luckily I didn't. But, yes, they will often attack each other on site

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Landover, Md.: I wasn't able to watch the film last night will it air again? If so when?

Erin Chapman: Very often, local stations do re-air programs. Check in with WETA or MPT (for Maryland viewers) to see if they have plans to broadcast again. As I've mentioned in a previous post, we hope to have the program available for sale, but don't currently have details. I'd encourage you to keep checking in through our Web site's feedback section. Hope you get a chance to see the show!

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Fairfax, Va.: Thanks for the forum; did you find that any of the gang members you dealt with gave you any solutions as to what would make life easier there in El Salvador? Would jobs being placed there via industry involvement/investment take some of the edge off, or was it all about gangs for gangs sake and controlling turf....regardless of how financially well off these kids were?

Ricardo Pollack: They did always complain that there were no jobs for them. Even when they did get a job, it wouldn't last as they would often get fired if someone discovered they were in the gang. On the other hand, gang culture was so much a part of their lives that I'm not sure a steady job would have helped. Its a bit like a cult - once you are in the gang, its very difficult to leave

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Washington, D.C.: What was most fascinating to me about the film was that the gang members seemed to understand some of the wider, sociological (and even religious) issues dictating their behavior - yet found themselves caught in a cycle of revenge with kids in similar situations to themselves. I am wondering if any of the emotions (empathy, sympathy, anger, etc.) you felt while filming this documentary gave you a greater understanding of the psychological pull towards retributive violence. Are there any emotions or thoughts that came up that surprised you?

Ricardo Pollack: That's a tough question. I did feel empathy in making this, but my overall emotion at the end of a days filming was often one of hopelessness. Some of these kids had some promise - but I never felt they would fulfill it. Its sad to see a 16 year old whose future you know is likely to be tragic - as sochi says - its likely to be prison or death

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washingtonpost.com: Thank you all for joining us.

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Alexandria, Va.: I enjoyed the documentary, but I wish it had gone more in depth into explaining WHY these men join gangs. The superficial "presence of guns and civil war aftershocks" doesn't really seem to be the whole story. What is it that drives them to view human life as so disposable and how can we fix that? Also, how much is the U.S. practice of deporting criminals, complete with gang connections and no alternative life paths, contributing to Salvador's gang issues?

Erin Chapman: Good question. I think rather than explicitly spelling out in narration the reasons these young men and women have decided to join the gangs, we decided to let their lives play out on-screen. I think the scene where Travieso calls his mother in the U.S. is one very affecting example of this. We can actually see that economic migration has driven many families apart. You can also see how influential U.S. deportation policy has been in Slappy's story (as well as the lives of many gang members). I'm sure you noticed how many of the characters speak English as fluently as Spanish. The endless cycle of migration and deportation certainly contributes to the transnational flow of gang culture.

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Erin Chapman: On behalf of Ricardo and myself, I'd like to thank you for joining in this enlightening discussion. Thanks as well to The Washington Post for providing such an excellent forum! I hope you'll tune in to next week's Wide Angle - airing Tuesday, July 18th (check local listings for time). We'll be taking a look at Ireland's dramatic transformation from one of the poorest countries in Europe to an economic powerhouse and how the Irish are dealing with these radical changes. That's "Mixed Blessings" - next week on Wide Angle. Thanks again for all the great questions and hope to see you next week! -ERIN

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