Dmitri Williams
Assistant Professor, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Friday, August 18, 2006
12:00 PM
Is there such a thing as too much virtual entertainment? With the rising popularity of World of Warcraft, Everquest, and other Massively Multiplayer Online Games, the potential for online gaming addictions has psychologists and experts talking.
Dmitri Williams , an assistant professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign who has researched the social impacts of Internet gaming will be online Friday, Aug. 18 at Noon ET to answer questions, dispel myths, and shed some light on excessive gaming.
A transcript follows .
Read more about this topic here:
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Dmitri Williams: Good morning, and/or good afternoon. My name is Dmitri Williams, and I'm an assistant professor in the Department of Speech Communication at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
I do research on online communities and also on video game play, with a focus on the social impacts. Given the title of this talk, I should also make clear that I am *not* an expert on addiction--drug, game, gambling or otherwise.
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Washington, D.C.: Professor Williams: I found today's Washington Post article very biased from an "anti-gaming" perspective. The author obviously wanted to endorse Liz Wooley's perspective that MMORPGs are a solely negative social and cultural influence. But that's not the whole story, is it? Most online gamers are not on the verge of suicide nor are they sociopaths sitting in front of the computer for 10 hours a day. Does your research find that most people who play MMORPGs are able to lead pretty functional lives? I get tired of all the negativity directed at gamers in the press.
Dmitri Williams: No offense to my hosts here at the Post, but bad news sells newspapers. Still, people are also rightly interested in learning about the various threats to themselves and their families.
One interesting question is Why worry about this, and not something else? For games, the answer has often been that the something else is more frightening--child abuse from relatives, malnutrition, underfunded schools, etc.
But you have to remember that this doesn't mean games *don't* cause any problems.
As to research on addiction and gaming, there really isn't a lot yet. We have some pretty interesting anecdotal research, but no one know if X % of the population has a problem, really. Is X .05% or 50%? We don't know right now. I suspect we'll have bette data in a year or two.
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San Rafael, Calif.: How do we separate an unhealthy addiction from an avid past time?
My friend has made WoW his number one hobby, taking up most of his free nights. I rarely see him anymore, and my gut tells me this is an addiction. But he claims he is still getting plenty of social interaction online, and that it isn't interfering with his work or health. He argues that if it were another hobby consuming all his time, say, golf or building cars - nobody would call it an addiction.
So, what makes something an addiction? Are online social pastimes inherently unhealthy? I have my own ideas about this, but I wanted to hear your thoughts.
Dmitri Williams: Addiction experts will tell you that the difference comes in whether the person has control over how much of the thing they do. Anything can be excessive and can be unhealthy--even work, sex, exercise, etc. But we tend to focus on things like games because they aren't seen as terribly productive or important. Is the thing they take the place of "better" or "worse" than the game play?
Still, if your friend was building cars so much that he stopped answering the phone and talking to his friends, you'd have a problem with that, I bet (and so would I).
The other part of your question is really one of the keys to understanding all of this--does he get social interaction online, and does that "count?" The answer is yes, but it's not a perfect substitute for everyone.
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Texas: I've been an online gamer for more than four years already, and since then my grades have improved as we'll as my mood. How can this be explained?
Dmitri Williams: There are many, many variables that explain outcomes for each individual. Gaming is rarely going to be the reason for particularly good or bad things. In science we say that it doens't explain a lot of the variance we see. So did games lead to good grades? Maybe playing them helped you in some way, or maybe your grades would have been even better had you not played. It would depend on what you played, how much, and in what way. Games can be wonderful teachers, but a lot depends on the title and the player.
My suggestion is to keep things in moderation and be aware of your play time. Also, pick games that are mentally challenging. You know the difference.
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Washington, D.C.: Why is it that certain other cultures, South Korea for example, seems very prone to video game addiction (to the point of it being lethal!) whereas it seems less common in the United States?
(Not to say it doesn't exist, but I've yet to hear of an American or European dying from playing games too long...perhaps losing a spouse, but not dying!)
Dmitri Williams: The South Korean case is very different than the US one. Their sense of gaming is more public and more common. Some of this likely comes from the fact that they have a far superior broadband than we do. The US lags behind many nations in our Internet speed. But better explanations can probably be found in the ways that East and West differ culturally, and in how gaming is a more accepted (and even celebrated) pastime in South Korea.
Honestly, I don't have a good handle on the cultural difference between S. Korea and the West, but there is clearly something there.
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Pennsylvania: I was reading the Post this morning and saw this story- I'm glad that a major newspaper is taking a look at this topic.
I have my own personal story of WoW woe to tell. I got married last summer to a computer guy. He has always gamed, but reasonably. Over the winter, he became addicted to World of Warcraft (WoW). He would play on average 8 hours per day on weekdays and 15 hours per day on weekends. Add that up in your head, understand we both had full-time jobs, and see how much of his time his brand new wife was getting, not to mention the friends he used to have, his parents, everyone.
After trying everything I could think of to get his attention and get him to at least cut down his play (everything from badgering to offering a "diversion" to finally ignoring him and doing my own thing with friends to getting his lifelong friends to talk to him), I finally had to leave. Our dog and I moved out 11 months after the wedding into an apartment with a friend of mine.
He lost his job three weeks later.
A desperate woman's question: These games have such addictive qualities, is there any way to get the game companies to stop producing them?
Dmitri Williams: Not likely. They make a lot of money.
I'm also very sorry to hear your story. We don't know how common they are, but there are certainly a lot of similar anecdotes out there.
Many game companies are grappling with this basic tension: They want to make games that people want to play, and they want them to keep playing. But if people hurt themselves in doing this, that's bad for everyone. Game developers are becoming aware of this, and some of the more socially responsible ones will consider designs that prompt players to take breaks or play less. After all, with a flat fee, the game makers actually have higher costs when a player is always on.
Still, I suspect that game makers and game players are going to have this tension for a long time. Games will get more compelling, not less.
And a big, big part of that compelling nature is the social element of the play, not just the system of reinforcement within the title.
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Washington, D.C.: While I understand that some players get too involved in these games, I still feel like I'm better off playing. I spend 4-5 hours at night now playing instead of watching TV. I'm actually participating, being social and problem solving instead of being passively entertained. Do you see much of this in your research?
Dmitri Williams: I do, and I'm gald you mentioned it. Yes, games can clearly have negative social effects on people. But most people who've never seen an MMO don't realize that the experience in the game is in fact a highly social one. So it's socially really a question of balance: If you start forming friendships and relationships online are they displacing the ones you have offline?
And if so, are the ones online "better" or "worse." I've written a few reearch articles on this, and I'll spare you the long version, but my guess is that it's about what *kind* of relationships you form. MMO spaces are pretty good at introducing players to new people, and for an isolated person, or someone who doesn't meet many different kinds of people, that can be a good thing. But for someone who really needs solid social support, they aren't a good solution in the short term. Truly solid connections take a while to form online, and it's debatable whether they area good substitute for a solid offline relationship.
So consider the person--are they well supported socially but need to branch out a little? They're probably going to thrive. But the person who already has lots of loose connections and really needs solid support might be served less well.
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Indianapolis, Ind.: Dr. Williams, I'm intereseted in the age range of online gamers. In today's Post article it said that the average age was 26. Does the average age of gamers seem to be trending upward, particularly as a game-playing generation of kids grows up and continues to play? A lot of the critics of these games say they're bad for kids, but it seems that more frequently its adults who are playing them. What do you think?
Dmitri Williams: Online gamers and MMO players aren't the same thing. Consider how many online games there are right now: casual stuff on Yahoo and Pogo, cell phone games over networks, short-term games like Counterstrike and other team-based FPS titles. Those players are very different than MMO players.
Casual gamers, especially on web sites, tend to be overwhelmingly female and usually older, while FPS titles skew to younger men.
For MMOs, the best data we have are still a bit shaky since they are self-reported. But we think the player base is about 80/20 male female. The men average about 26 and the women about 31 or 32. So MMOs are much more of an adult phenomenon. I did a study of 800 players of one game and found a low age of 14, a high of 67 and an average of 27.
But you are also right to note the generational cycle going on. Baby Boomers stopped playing games arounf 1982 and didn't ever go back (with exceptions, of course). Yet nearly 100% of all new generations play games. So the average age is in fact rising, but it's not because of any change within generations. It's merely because the different generations are aging and, sorry to be blunt, people die.
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Oxon Hill, Md.: I constantly hear people say that communicating via the net is the same is IRL (in real life). Just saying that seems to be a contradiction to me, but do you think we lose something in one form of communicating vs the other. Is it better, emotionally, to sit face to face and chat vs IMing or would you say both forms are equal. Even in using our cellphones now, we can talk or text. My kids love to text. I think it takes more time and is sort of impersonal. I wonder why most teens seem to prefer it though.
Dmitri Williams: The medium we choose has a huge bearing on the quality of our communication, and people usually don't realize it.
One of the common qualities of MMOs is text-based communication, and we know that text-only communication is fraught with problems and miscommunication. I'm willing to bet that every person reading this has had at least 5 significant misunderstandings due to email miscommunications--you were trying to be sarcastic, but the person didn't realize it, etc.
The thing is, text doesn't convey as much information. As I type this, you can't tell if I'm happy, sad, exasperated, etc. But if you could hear my voice, you'd know more. And if you could see me, you'd know more still. And if we were in person, you'd know a lot.
One study I'm just finishing up tests for what happens when we add voice communication to these games, and I'm finding that it has a very positive impact. When people can hear each other, rather than just type, they make much better human connections. They share more, learn more, risk more of the personal information with the other person, etc. Trust levels go up, liking goes up, etc. It leads to stronger human connections and more social support.
So the medium always matters. Marshall McLuhan was right.
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Virginia: The majority of the media coverage of online gaming focuses on the negative aspects of gaming - addiction, neglect of family and job, etc. - and almost entirely ignores the positive aspects. In my own research (from a sociological perspective), players reported increased social contacts, leadership skills, improvements in problem solving, increases in confidence. There are certainly problems with people who game excessively, but do you think online gaming suffers from a PR problem related to "too much TV watching" and "too much violence"? The WP article mentioned that some of the problem comes from the stigma of video games being waste of time and frivolous.
Dmitri Williams: Certainly. Game playing has been caught up in cultural warfare for the past 15 or so years, so it can be hard to decipher the truth given how much noise there is from both proponents and opponents. And we don't have a lot of research that stands up just yet (although some would disagree with me on that).
Here's what we do know: games are a more active medium and they are, along with Internet use, replacing less active media like TV and radio. Is that good or bad? We want the simple and quick answer ("counch potato vs. serial killer), but the truth is it depends a lot on the particular content and the particular person and it just isn't that black and white.
I think we'll find that games have the potential for both good and bad, and that the moderating factors will be the person's innate disposition, their socioeconomic background and the social context of the media use.
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Hyattsville, Md.: Why is it that South Korea or other nations are more advanced in their internet broadband services than U.S.?
What is keeping behind U.S.?
Thanks
Dmitri Williams: Write your representatives. They've been, let's say, highly influenced by the telecommunication companies. We lag behind Eurpoe and Asia in cell phones and broadband infrastructure and are becoming a bit of a joke. But that really is a topic for another session!
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Counterpoint: I am the opposite of the neglected wife who wrote of her WoW experience. My husband plays a different MMORPG and is very reasonable. Sure he plays a few hours each night, but sitting next to me as I watch TV (which isn't much better for you). I have observed and gotten into his game as a kibbitzer, and now have started trying to play myself.
It is not universally bad or good, and asking that the games not be made is ridiculous. The game is not to blame for someone who gets lost in it -- the person is.
Dmitri Williams: I think your comment illustrates nicely how different people can be with the same thing since both experiences are true.
There really are only two things that can affect this system: government intervention or education. My vote is nearly always for the latter.
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Arlington, Va.: MMORPG's like Blizzards World of Warcraft is not all that different from Disneyland, it is basically just a ride through a virtual fairyland. So, why fuss?
Addictions to cigarettes, alcohol and drugs are far worse then an addiction to getting to level 60 and collecting ubber loot.
Dmitri Williams: WoW is not like Disneyland, except that it's fun and has a lot of great art. Imagine if Disneyland rewarded you for going on Pirates of the Carribean 5 times. You get an eye patch or something. And then you get to see the secret back room of the ride that only eye-patch wearers get to see. And then once you see that room, you get a t-shirt that lets you cut to the front of other lines.
You'd ride 5 times, right?
That's the difference. MMOs build in reward systems that prompt the player to keep playing to achieve goals. And the goals can be very small, but they are very compelling. Game designers have learned what makes people enjoy the game and going on to the "next thing." I liken it to reading a really good book where one chapter ends and you really want to start the next one.
It's this dynamic that makes MMOs at least very compelling and "fun" for players, but can also be the very thing that makes players feel like they are on a treadmill. Awareness and moderation can help a lot.
Still, people who haven't played need to also understand how compelling the social part can be when layered on top of all of this: Hey, come join us! It'll be fun! Books don't do that, and even though Disneyland can, it isn't open all the time, isn't quite as cheap, and your friends aren't always there.
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Potomac, Md.: What is your opinion on cases when couples meet in-game and eventually marry? Will online games eventually become a 'hang-out' place for meeting people?
Dmitri Williams: I think they already are a hangout. I've just published a paper, along with my colleague Constance Steinkhueler of the University of Wisconsin, on this subject. It's available online at
http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/steinkuehler.html
Games are becoming hangouts because real-world hangouts have been on a drastic decline for several decades now. A fellow names Robert Putnam wrote a book about this called "Bowling Alone" that shows just how bad things have gotten. We don't interact with our fellow citizens, don't socialize as much in public, don't have friends over as often, etc., etc. Most people have no "Cheers" to go to.
And I honestly think that this very shortage of real-world social and civic outlets is one thing that makes the online world more attractive to people. Since humans could write on a cave wall, we've needed contact with other humans. And when it gets taken away by suburbs and home theater systems, we look around for alternatives.
So of course people will go online to meet and even make romance. We can't be surprised. What do I think of couples who meet online and get married? Well, I know they start with a common interest. Who knows if the time online is a better foundation for a sexual relationship than, say, meeting at a loud bar? You miss out on the physical, but probably connect more on the psychological. I wish them well. If you can predict these things, I suggest you start up a business and become very, very wealthy.
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Arlington, VA: Dr. Williams,
I've been a big fan of your work for some time now, and am really enjoying this chat.
I'm interested in your opinion on how the experiences of people in online gaming can teach us about "real-life." I've heard some discussions recently about how people interact in games, form groups, learn skills, become leaders, break trust, etc. It seems to me that we can use gaming as a great platform to study human interactions in a world with more limited consequences. (Of course, our insights are limited for now to the gaming population.)
I know there must be some work going on in this area. Any thoughts?
And, how far can we push this while still keeping games fun? For example, I'm very interested in what motivates people to protect the environment. Will I ever learn anything about that from how people interact with their virtual environments?
Christine
Dmitri Williams: Hi, Christine.
We can learn a lot about behaviors within online worlds, but there's a real risk at the same time.
One the upside, we get what social scientists call "unobtrusive" measures. That is, people don't know they are being watched/recorded, so they behave normally.
The downside is that the in-game conditions have to mirror real-world ones for the results to matter outside of the game world. For example, you can't study people's willingness to take risks in a world where death is not permanent. So whatever conditions you want to bootstrap out have to be built in to the incentive system of the game world. If you want to study, say, water quality and how people learn about it, you'd need a world where such things matter and people have the same incentives they have around the issue offline. Otherwise, I don't trust the data. And how to make such a thing fun at the same time? Wow, that's a challenge. We're really just on the cusp of this kind of research and learning new things daily.
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Rockville, Md.: In your previous answer you've suggested that education is the preferred method of stemming these problems with excessive online gaming.
Do you have thoughts about how to implement such a program? At what education level should you start? Should it be part of the school's educational program?
Dmitri Williams: I'd need to know all of the effects of gaming before suggesting the right way to educate people. Tell your representatives to fund some of this research beyond just whether games cause agression, ok?
What we know now is that self-awareness and moderation are good things. The ability to stop is a good thing. The ability to not lie to oneself is a good thing--all the things people would say about knowing if you have a gambling problem.
Where to put these lessons out? Like just about every media researcher, I am a fanatical proponent of "media literacy." Yes, it should absolutely be taught in schools, from kindergarter up. Knowing how to use, make sense of, know who's behind, and moderate media usage is a crucial life skill that school generally ignore.
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Alexandria, Va.: As a long time gamer (remember the MUDs?) I'm taken aback by the commenters who consider 4-5 hours a night to be a reasonable amount of time to play. This would take me from the time I returned from work until the time I was getting ready for bed. When do they exercise, eat, socialize (IRL)?
Dmitri Williams: Compare and contrast this with TV use, which runs a few more hours per week on average than MMO use. Is that too much? When do people find the time. They do, and have been finding it since the 1950s.
When does the average American exercise, eat and socialize? One thing you can say for MMOs is that there is at least some form of social interaction, while with TV there is usually none. But as I've said earlier, moderation is crucial. Balance in life is important, and no one needs a researcher to tell them that.
And honestly, as I look around at my fellow Americans, I'd say that just about everyone--MMO player, TV watcher, book reader or non-media user--could stand a trip to the gym . . .
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Ashburn, VA: My 15 year old son doesn't have many friends because he had undiagnosed bipolar disorder as a young child and never learned good social skills. Yet he's thriving in his online world. (He's also doing extremely well in school and participating in church activities, so I'm not worried about addiction.) Do you think that online relationships can help someone like my son learn to build real life relationships?
Dmitri Williams: I think it's possible, but I'd ask that very question of a licensed therapist. Your child isn't some generic person that you can use general advice on, and his particular game use will vary depending on what game he plays and with whom he plays it.
My advice to you is the same advice I give every parent: Sit down with your son and play (or watch) with him for a few hours. Take the time to see what he's doing, with whom he's doing it, and what he gets out of it. You'll be better informed and your son will likely be impressed that you took the time.
Then, for you, take that information to an expert and see where it leads you.
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Baltimore, Md.: I've started playing an online game with my 5-year-old, and was quite surprised at how quickly she picked it up. It's allowed us to be together and talk about things like attitudes towards winning and losing, rewards for effort, and whether werewolves or vampires are cooler.
But she develops a terrible temper whenever she spends more than an hour or so online. So it's a balancing act.
Have you run into many families who play together, intergenerationally, online?
Dmitri Williams: Lots and lots, actually. I did a recent study of WoW players and found that about 1/3 of all players in game "guilds" knew each other before playing. And the smaller guilds were often composed of one or two families who were using the game as a way to stay connected, sometimes over long distances. Others played locally and just had fun together.
Co-playing is a trend I'd like to see more of. Parental involvement is so important to children's developement. If you are there, you can make a judgement about whether the game is appropriate for a 5-year old or not. A lot of parents tell me that NeoPets (if you can take the commercialism) and Disney's web games work for them and their values. I advise parents to look around and try things out beforehand whenever possible.
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Boston, Mass.: Any thoughts on the democratizing effects of online role/game playing (for good or ill)? For example, my brother is 15 and active on WoW, and I know he's had other guild members who were very surprised to discover his true age. How accurately have you found people tend represent themselves (or not), and how well does it come through?
Dmitri Williams: I only have anecdotes on that, but most interviewees tell me that they are aware of age fairly quickly. Most younger players tip themselves either by their language (dood!), or their actions, which tend to focus less on groups goals and more on individual glory. Some are of course more mature than others, and some become mature by socializing with older players.
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Baltimore, Md.: What sort of social interaction do you commonly see in MMO's- both good and bad? From my personal experience, I can see both positive (working with friends in a guild to accomplish a goal) and negative (name-calling and harassment in general chat), but I would be interested to hear what else is out there. In addition, does the character of in-game social interaction change with gender? It would be interesting to see how women and men adapt to this particular environment, which seems to require a balance of leadership and cooperation to succeed at high levels.
Dmitri Williams: I see lots of good and bad. When the costs of getting in to a group or out of it are high, people behave well. When the costs of getting in and out are low, people often behave badly. It's the same as the real world. Also, the medium matters more. People using voice are making a stronger personal commitment by letting more be known about themselves. The connections become a bit deeper and the behavior a little better. Exceptions still abound, though!
As to men and women, the MMO space is male-dominated due to its design and player base. Women often talk less or don't disclose their gender to avoid harrassment. Yet some women become very active and come to lead large groups. Even though it sounds stereotypical, many women take an active social lead in guilds, recruiting and fostering members along.
In other situations, the very shortage of females can make them objects of contention as the male players act like idiots and fight over them. Online, as in offline life, there is always some of what players rightly label "drama."
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Arlington, Va.: I've been following the Post's coverage of video games, especially in Style. It's been good. And I read GamePro, Game Informer, etc. too. Who's doing a good job covering games, in your opinion?
Dmitri Williams: Games business daily (sp?), the online British email service, is particularly good. The Post also has good coverage, as do many of the big dailies. I think Chris Morris of CNN/Money and Alex Pham of the LA Times are great beat reporters. On the magazine side, Julian Dibbell contributes for WIRED and is great, and Tom Standage at the Economist is good as well. Sorry to those I'm forgetting with time pressure!
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MeMedievia, Hibernia, Azeroth - kidding!: Yet another article over hyping the dangers of video games? When are we going to get over this? I'm a 32 year old female. I've been playing MUDs and MMOs with my friends and family for ten years now, and we enjoy them immensely. We all have careers and lives, many of us work out, volunteer, read, have other projects and hobbies. We hang out outside of games, but we play together because it's fun. Is it addictive? In that it's enjoyable and we want to keep playing because we enjoy it, yes. It's just like any hobby.
Suicidal people are going to be suicidal regardless of whether they're watching TV, reading The Bell Jar, playing video games, or playing the dreaded, fearsome, dangerous Dungeons and Dragons. In fact, all this hype reminds me of all the silly kerfluffle over roleplaying games in the 80's.
What really cheeses me off, actually, are women who claim they are "video game widows", who haven't even tried playing with their husbands. They just get bitter because they're watching TV by themselves. Not everyone enjoys gaming, and that's ok, but to not even take an interest in your partner's activities and then whine about them is just petty. Would they be whining so loudly if their partners were out in the garage or workshop, making birdhouses or whatever? I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to be that some of them are just jealous that their partners are interacting with other people.
My husband and I play games together... it's fun, it helps keep us close, and it's easier to say, together, "We're at a good stopping place. Let's go do the grocery shopping."
Dmitri Williams: Please talk to my wife! (Actually, she's very good about my hobbies.)
You sound like you have a good relationship and you both understand balance and moderation. Some people understand it better than others.
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Aurora, N.Y.: What is known about the involvement of African American and Hispanic gamers?
Dmitri Williams: Very little. Initial and early data suggest that they play just as much as other ethnities do, and possibly even more among youth. However, they suffer from a real lack of ethnic figures, much like female players do. It's difficult to enjoy a game when you cannot identify with anyone in it.
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Maryland: Do you think the line between online games and real life could eventually be blurred? For example, do you think people could have a job in an online game and get paid real money for it?
Dmitri Williams: For gold farmers this already happens (and is overhyped), but I think a more interesting angle would be people moving their work functions into virtual worlds (not just game ones). Anyone who's poked around in Second Life will know that the possibilities for commerce, creativity and interaction there are really only limited by the imagination. Still, I think that these tools need to be a lot easier to use and more accessible before they become mainstream.
OK, my time is up. Thank you all for the great questions, and sorry to those I couldn't get to.
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