Religion and Politics

How much of an impact will factors such as the Foley scandal, David Kuo's "Tempting Faith," and the Virginia same-sex marriage amendment have on next week's vote?

John Green , author of, "The Values Campaign: The Christian Right in American Politics," and "The Diminishing Divide: Religion's Changing Role in American Politics," was online Thursday, Nov. 2 at 1 p.m. ET to discuss the role of religion on the upcoming election.

A transcript follows.

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Alpharetta, Ga.: Is it true that White Catholics tend to be critical swing voters, and although a little more pro-life than the electorate are still basically up for grabs?

John Green: Yes, white Catholics are chief among the swing voters in the country. In part this reflects the political diversity of white Catholics, with the strongly pro-life Catholics tending to vote Republican and the strongly pro-choice tending to vote Democratic. But there are middle-of-road Catholics who are torn between the Republicans and the Democrats and can go either way.

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Gaithersburg, Md.: The religion section of my local second-hand bookstore contains numerous titles along the lines of "The Current State of the Middle East in Biblical Prophesy," claiming how prophesy accurately predicted the latest (as of their writing) conflict.

Polling data from the 2004 election showed that people who still favored invading Iraq were also non-informed about certain important facts -- majorities believing it had been shown that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11 or that WMDs had been found. It was as if they had faith and didn't want to be confused with facts.

Is there any data to show that belief in the possibility of supernatural involvement is driving any part of support for current Middle East policy?

John Green: There is some poll evidence that suggests that belief in biblical prophecy is related to people's views of the Middle East. The strongest relationship is with support for Israel. However, the relationship is complex and the exact role of supernatural beliefs is difficult to measure with precision. Some people with these views appear to be quite well informed about current events, but other appear to be less informed.

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Portland, Maine: John,

I'm wondering how much years of bad news on Iraq has affected evangelical voters. Evangelicals were among the strongest supporters of the invasion -- Jerry Falwell even said that "God is pro-war." Have evangelicals become disillusioned on this subject, or do you find that they are still "true believers" in regards to Bush's Middle Eastern foreign policy?

John Green: The Iraq war is hurting Bush with religious people, especially Catholics and Mainline Protestants. Even Evangelical Protestants are much less supportive than they used to be, with just a little over one-half now saying they think the war was the right decision.

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Washington, D.C.: Dr. Green, how well has the Democratic party progressed in developing messages that offer some appeal to voters for whom "values" issues are important. Is this an area that they should simply write off in their electoral strategies, or is there room for both parties in this arena?

John Green: Thank you all for your good questions.

Polling evidence suggests that the Democrats can compete with the Republicans for religious voters. One basic step would be for Democrats to talk about their faith and how it shapes their politics. Another is to talk about religious values in support for their policy positions, and yet another possibility is to offer more moderate positions on some issues. This year Harold Ford, Bob Casey and Ted Strickland are doing these sorts of things to good effect. If they are successful, we may see more Democrats following this path.

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Mountain View, Calif.: In Tennessee, Senatorial candidate Harold Ford got some attention for filming an ad in a church. Seems like a great idea for the particular contest, but is this nearing the edge of what a church cannot do based on tax laws regarding non-profits like churches and election activity?

John Green: The Ford church ad was an effective use of a generalized religious symbol. As such there isn't a legal problem. However, if his (or any other) church specifically sought to help Ford by making their facilities available, then that could represent a legal problem.

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Chicago: Thanks for hosting this chat.

Why doesn't the religious political community weigh in on horrendous negative campaigning bordering on deceit and scandalous misrepresentation and character assassination? Do they see this as a means to a justifiable end?

Good example is Rush Limbaugh last week mocking Michael J. Fox the person, not just disagreeing with his views. How is the Christian right's silence advancing their goals? Are they more interested in being a righteous, vengeful force over a peaceful, kind and compassionate one in the world?

John Green: Quite a few religious leaders decry negative ads. However, there is a tendency to accept such ads because they work in campaigns -- that is, the ads attract voters. And the tolerance is particularly high when the ads are helping candidates or causes the leaders agree with. But few religious leaders of any sort are very happy with the quality of campaign discourse.

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Harrisburg, Pa.: Has David Kuo's book resonated? I have read it and am shocked at how the Bush White House takes the religious right for their money and their votes and thinks so little of them. How widely is this book known?

John Green: The response in the evangelical community has been mixed. Some people were angered by the reported disregard of Republicans for evangelicals. But other see the book as betrayal and an election year gimmick. Still others wondered why it took Kuo so long to understand the hardball nature of politics. The book has apparently been widely read among evangelical activists and leaders.

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Laurel, Md.: Is there data to suggest that the Democrat's attempt to appeal to religious voters is turning off secularist voters? Or are they so turned off by the current Republican party that anything that helps the Democrats win is at least tolerable?

John Green: One of the big fears of some Democratic strategists is that moves to attract religious voters may turn off secular votes, who have become strong Democrats in recent times. This is a version of a common problem in American politics: how does one build a winning coalition when one needs the support of voters that disagree on policy? The Republicans face a similar problem with evangelicals and libertarians.

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Aurora, Minn.: While it is obvious that religion plays an increasing role in the body politic in this country, is it really the case that the religious right is making actual policy headway? It seems to me that the modern Republican treats evangelicals like Democrats treat big labor: give us your money and your votes, and in turn we will propose a bunch of useless legislation that will never see the light of day.

John Green: This is good point. Evangelicals and other conservative Christians have been quite successful in terms of electoral politics, but have had relatively little impact on the policies they care about -- at least to date. This is a strong source of frustration among evangelicals and other conservative Christians. In this regard, there are parallels with the Democrats and some of their constituencies.

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Harper's Ferry, W.V.: Is there any sign that the Iraq War is hurting Bush among religious voters? Perhaps among the more liberal of them (mainline Protestants, progressive Catholics)? Jesus was a peacemaker, after all.

John Green: Yes, Iraq is hurting Bush with religious voters and particularly with white Catholics and mainline Protestants. Even with evangelicals, support for the war has steadily declined, so that now days just a little over one-half of evangelicals believe the Iraq war was the right decision.

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Bowie, Md.: Some Christian leaders in the United States have criticized President Bush for describing Islam as a great faith that has been perverted by terrorists.

Do many grassroots evangelical voters feel disillusioned about the president's outreach to friendly Muslim nations; or do most accept that being President and fighting terrorism requires a show of ecumenism?

John Green: There was a negative reaction in some evangelical quarters to Bush's positive statement about Islam. However, most evangelicals agreed with Bush's foreign policy, so there has been a tendency to cut him some slack on this particular controversy. As one leader put it, "Bush is the commander and chief, not theologian in chief."

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Annapolis, Md.: We always hear about evangelicals and Catholics, but what's happening with mainline Protestants this year? Lots of Lutherans and Methodists in key states like Minnesota, Iowa and Ohio.

John Green: Very good question. Mainline Protestants are quite involved in politics this year. The more conservative elements are active on the right, and the progressive elements have gained new vigor this year supporting liberal candidates and causes. Because Mainline churches are diverse politically, they do not speak in one voice in politics. Thus their contributions are often missed.

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San Diego: Could an atheist ever be elected president? If so, under what conditions?

John Green: At the moment, it is quite unlikely that an atheist could get elected president. Americans tend to have very negative views of atheists. So, the perception of atheists would have to change fairly substantially. That said, a good way to change perceptions is to have effective atheist candidates and officeholders.

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Greenville, S.C.: Do you believe the use of religious rhetoric by the president and others is designed to further policy goals or strictly to enhance an electoral advantage with conservative Christians?

John Green: Bush's religious rhetoric is surely a bit of both things, representing his personal views on policy as well as an appeal for votes.

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Iraq war question: Hi Mr. Green, I'm delighted that you can answer questions today. Back when the Iraq war started, I remember several major Christian denominations pronounced that it was not a "just war" (I think the Catholic and Methodist Churches were among these). But I haven't seen any clear political fallout from this, and indeed, Catholic bishops seem to have been more concerned with gay marriage than the war. Am I correct, and if so, why hasn't this gotten more press or affected politics more?

John Green: Your memory is correct. In fact, many religious denominations opposed the war. These positions had a mixed impact on their own followers. In 2004, many church goers voted for Bush despite this criticism. My sense is that these views are resonating more now, given the experience with the war.

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Annapolis, Md.: Is it too much to expect the Democrats to try to make the case that values are not contingent upon religiosity?

John Green: Actually, Democrats often do talk about values from non-religious sources. However, many voters are religious people and an appeal to religious values can be quite effective at the polls. This can be a tricky thing, of course, since religious appeals can also turn off other voters.

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Marshall, Mo.: Peace be unto you, Bro. Green,

In the autobiographies of the founding fathers of The United States of America we find that they know that only our Creator can make laws. And they put what controls America into The Declaration of Independence as "the laws of Nature and of Nature's G-d".

So how is it that people get away with the claim that there is a "separation of church and state" in the Constitution of the United States of America? And what do kings, prophets or not, rule over?

John Green: Americans have long debated the exact meaning of the First Amendment and thus what the details of the separation of church and state should be. Only a few Americans would accept a definition that removed religion completely from the public square. But other worry about too close a connection between religion and politics in a diverse society. The founders had a similar range of opinion on this matter, albeit in a different historical context.

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Cos Cob, Conn.: Do you feel "Christian Right" to be a bigoted phrase? I rarely see the phrase "Jewish left" or "black extremists" being used.

Question 2: The biggest block of swing voters (again) this year is the white Catholic vote. I don't see anyone actively engaging them like other ethnic, religious or racial groups. Giuliani is the only Catholic being mentioned as a presidential candidate.

The Democrats are putting fewer and fewer Catholics up for statewide elections in the heavily Catholic Northeastern states. Why are they abandoning their largest base?

John Green: Most terms start out as descriptive and then can become pejorative. The term "Christian right" replaced the term "religious right" for just this reason--but may be becoming something of a slur as well. I'm not sure it is an inherently negative term, like the word "extremist." There is quite a fight going on for Catholic votes, but Catholics have to be approached on the basis of religious belief and practice rather than affiliation.

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Tampa, Fla.: I find three things striking about the massive interference of organized religion in US politics:

(1) It mirrors the machine politics of the 1930s and later. Instead of urban voters rallying around their party, suburban and exurban voters rally around their church.

(2) The Protestant right has seemed to make peace with the Catholic church, which seems entirely new. Not too long ago Bob Jones represented the majority view of Protestants that the Pope is the anti-Christ and Catholics worshipped the Pope, not God. How long can this marriage of convenience continue? I think the only reason it has lasted as long as it has is that conservatives such as Opus Dei control the Catholic church. If the Catholic hierarchy shifts to the left (say, when the current elderly Pope dies and his successor is from Latin America and sympathetic to Liberation theology), do you think we'll see this alliance rupture? I already see tension over the death penalty and social issues such as aid to the needy.

(3) Most importantly, the new religious extremists reject American history. They falsely claim we're an officially Christian nation in the same sense Saudi Arabia is Wahabbi Sunni. They forget conservative Christians supported slavery and segregation, yet now have the gall to claim they actually were the driving force behind abolition and civil rights. To me, the real reason they detest public schools is that public schools do not engage in the religious indoctrination necessary to rewrite American history.

John Green: Your comments are insightful. The political organization of conservative Christians has been quite effective, much like the old party operations or like labor unions in the 1930s and 1950s. And we do see an alliance between religious traditionalists among Protestants and Catholics, with ancient opponents increasing on the same side. In fact, this is an important change in U.S. politics. Certainly, there is also a great debate over the meaning of the past, with various groups trying to mobilize history on their behalf--sometimes in violation of the facts and sometimes with respect for them.

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Herndon, Va.: John Dean's review of Kuo's book on Findlaw points out that the top 20 most corrupt House members according to Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics also get very high marks from Focus on the Family. What's your take on certain Christian groups' willingness to overlook immoral or amoral behavior among political leaders, in exchange for the legislation they want?

John Green: I once interviewed a religious leader who said, "The politics of moralism makes hypocrites of us all." It is quite embarrassing for many conservative Christians to see that people rated as moral engage in corrupt behavior. Of course, this problem is not limited to conservatives.

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St. Mary's City, Md.: I would like to see the media explore the larger implications of David Kuo's claims about the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives.

I sympathize with Kuo's concerns about the manipulation of evangelical Christians for political gain. But I am more concerned about the Administration using the initiative to promote one faith at the expense of others. Like the Air Force Academy scandal, this was perpetuated by people who reject the principle of government neutrality among competing religions.

Katherine Harris openly advocates theocracy, and it would be easy to dismiss her as a kook. But until recently, the Majority Leader in the House of Representatives was a man (Tom DeLay) who equated people who disagreed with his politics with the people who killed Christ. I believe that it's dangerous for democracy when people not only push to blur the line between church and state, but claim that it's necessary to defend religion. What are your thoughts?

John Green: There have always been certain theocratic tendencies in American religion and we see some examples today. However, those tendencies have rarely been very important in politics because in the end it is self-defeating, even among religious people. So my sense is that the dangers of such theocratic tendencies are small, with many of those who talk this way not really meaning quite what it sounds like. And in any event, they tend to pay a heavy price for these positions. Harris and DeLay are good examples.

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Mitchellville, Md: Will the weakening of the unholy alliance between the leaders of the Republican party and leaders of the "Christian right" cause the major news media to finally begin to consider the political opinions held by the Christian left? My sense is that the because the Christian left is not as shrill in its political messages, the news media tend to dismiss it as "dull news." Being against the death penalty, for example, is not as newsworthy as seeing people who profess forgiveness of sins advocating punitive death; advocacy of world peace through example is not as newsworthy as covering Christians who promote war.

John Green: There is no question that the perceived success of the Christian Right has motivated the "Christian left" to be more vocal and engaged in politics.

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Fairfax, Va.: Have the Democrats made any headway among religious voters? If so, who? How?

John Green: The Democrats appear to be doing well with some religious voters, especially white Catholics and Mainline Protestants. And they continue to do well with black Protestants, Jews, and Muslims. It some places they may be making some in roads among more moderate evangelicals.

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Washington, D.C.: Why the disconnect between Democrats and church-goers? I mean, Hillary Clinton was a Sunday school teacher for many years yet when she says "God," the media act like she is pandering.

John Green: This is an interesting question. I suspect there are several answers. One factor is the rise of the social issues, on which regular attenders tend to be more conservative. Another is the perception that has arisen that Democrats are unfriendly toward religion--this may reflect a certain neglect of religion by Democrats. And also, the GOP has vigorously pursued regular worship attenders.

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Rockville, Md.: Shouldn't people try to separate their religious beliefs from what's best for society when they enter the voting booth? Church and state have become way to much one-in-the-same for me during the Bush administration. It's one of the things I really detest about his administration. The Republicans have done a great job at making themselves out to be the party of God, but plenty of Democrats have strong morals, values, and religious beliefs as well. I'd like to see religious issues mixed with politics a little less. I don't think it's too late to take a step back towards that, do you?

John Green: Some people believe that religion is a private matter and has no place in voting. But many others believe that religious values should influence their vote, rather than say, just self interest. There certainly is some kind of balance between religious and nonreligious values that would appear to still other people. In a democracy, it is hard to see how values--religious or otherwise--would not matter to many people when they vote.

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Iowa: RE Catholics as swing voters, my church bulletin last week had a reminder that stem cell research is condemned by the official Church hierarchy. This would seem to be an issue more likely to split voters, given the therapeutic possibilities for stem cells vs. the right-to-life view of abortion.

John Green: Embryonic stem cell research does indeed divide Catholic voters as well as other Americans. And it is precisely because it pits two "life" issues against one another. Many social issues have this characteristic of conflicting values. The Catholic hierarchy has give one of the values priority.

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Madison, Wis.: It seems to me that churches rarely get into trouble when they blatantly engage in political activity. Many Christian and Catholic churches in our state are actively supporting a "yes" vote on an anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment. What will a complaint to the IRS accomplish?

John Green: The IRS respondent to complaints in this area and many of the more questionable cases never generate a complaint. But such rules don't apply to issues, only to partisan candidates.

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Alexandria, Va.: I'm a 38 year old, married, Catholic, educated, home owning, father of four. I'm also a life long Democrat. Many of my co-religionists have forgotten that the two institutions that helped Catholic immigrants integrate into American society were the Catholic church and the Democratic party.

Since the 1980s, many Catholics have been convinced that they had no choice but to vote for Republicans because of the abortion issue. Though I agree that no Catholic can, in good conscience, support abortion, the rule is to cast your vote so as to do the least harm. Given the harm the Republicans have done to our nation, our Constitution and our reputation around the world, it is high time that American Catholics come home.

Do polls suggest that Catholics will look beyond the abortion issue this election or have the Republican voting patterns become too entrenched?

John Green: There are quite a few Catholics who have voted Republican as the "lesser of two evils" and abortion was a big reason. But in elections that are less about social issues, they often vote Democratic. And some polls suggest that this many be happening this year: the Democrats are getting strong Catholic support in the generic congressional ballot.

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Takoma Park, Md.: Is the African-American religious community becoming stronger then white religious communities? I mean this in relation to their own communities, not each-other? It seems to me that I see a lot of progressive religious leaders coming out of the city of Baltimore in this election cycle.

John Green: African-American Protestant churches are quite vital and very engaged in politics. In this regard, they have been more effective than progressive white Christians and often as strong as conservative white Christians.

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Gaithersburg, Md.: Do you see an impact by Sam Harris with his books in the political arena?

John Green: Sam Harris' book is a good example of non-religious people speaking out more in the public square. It may well help engage more secular voters in politics. It could also anger religious people--but many of them are already engaged politically.

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New York, N.Y.: I know this is going to be a complex question, but why do Jewish voters tend to be progressive, considering Israel, and considering the fact that they would probably tend to benefit from GOP economic policies?

John Green: Jews are progressive in part because of the values their faith teaches, partly because of the history of Jews as a minority faith, and partly because of the high levels of education in the Jewish community. All this pushes Jews in a Democratic direction. But support for Israel does move some Jews toward the GOP. Of course, many Democrats also support Israel as well.

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Silver Spring, Md.: As someone who is Buddhist and in a committed gay relationship who would like to marry, I really don't understand why someone of a different religion thinks they have the right to tell me how to live my life based on their religion's sacred text. My ancestors came to this land before the American Revolution fleeing people telling them how they should practice their religious faith. Why don't these Christians understand freedom of religion means all religions, not just theirs? Is any politician arguing this point? (p.s. we moved our childfree $150K household from Virginia to Maryland because of Virginia's bigotry -- no taxes for them!)

John Green: Actually, quite a few religious leaders make just this point, viewing tolerance and diversity as religious values. But other religious leaders see other religious values as more important, such as those governing sexual behavior or family structure. The argument is about which values should be in public policy.

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Austin, Tex.: Do you see issue of homosexuality causing real problems between the Christian right and the Republican Party? Seems to me that one indirect result of the Foley scandal has been to point out that Washington Republican politicians and commentators know gays and are perfectly okay with them, while making anti-gay statements to please their supporters. Kind of makes them look like hypocrites.

John Green: Gay rights is a major tension between moderate Republicans and Christian conservatives. I have a feeling it will become more severe in the next few years.

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Arlington, Va.: How do the fundamentalist churchgoers feel about supporting candidates who belong to smaller denominations such as the Mormons? Mitt Romney is trying an outreach effort regarding his religion and I wonder whether it could work.

John Green: Good question. There are important religious differences between Mormons and many evangelicals, especially fundamentalists. But Romney's issue positions are quite congenial. So this is something worth watching closely if Romney runs for president. Fundamentalists have found a way to cooperate with Catholics--but it took many years.

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John Green: Thanks to everyone for their excellent questions. I am sorry I did not get to them all--it was great fun.

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