Post Magazine: Making Up for Lost Time

Virginia has created a scholarship program to give African American adults from Prince Edward County something they were denied as children: public education.

Liza Mundy , whose story about making up for lost time appeared in Sunday's Washington Post Magazine , was online fielding questions and comments. Joining her in the conversation was Aldrena Thirkill and Henry Cabarrus , who were both affected by the Prince Edward County school closings.

A transcript follows.

Liza Mundy is a contributing writer for the Magazine.

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Liza Mundy: Hello to all Post readers, and thank you for taking time out of following the pre-election news to respond to the Sunday magazine article on the Virginia scholarships. I would like to introduce, and convey my thanks to, Henry Cabarrus and Aldrena Thirkill, who are also participating in the chat. Henry and Aldrena are both recipients of the Brown v. Board scholarships currently being awarded by the state of Virginia. The scholarships are an effort on the part of the state to try and make up for the fact that they and their classmates were denied five years of public education in Prince Edward County, from 1959 to 1964, when then county closed its public schools rather than integrate them. I am so grateful to Henry and Aldrena for sharing their stories, past and present, for the article, and I admire them so much for all that they have achieved. Both of them are working full-time, and attending classes as well, and it's extremely nice of them to take the time out to chat. I think both Henry and Aldrena will be responding separately to a question that has been posted, so it may take a few minutes for their responses to appear. Readers, don't go away! Best regards, Liza Mundy

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Bowie, Md.: This is the second such article I've read in the Post -- and I find the whole situation sickening. That a county would close all of its schools to prevent integration ... I just don't have the words to deplore this sufficiently.

But it seems that the state of Virginia is making it awfully difficult for these adults to take up the offer of "reparations education" now. Why should they have to still live in Virginia? Why should they have to take business classes when what they really want to study is social work? Mr. Caburrus' experience with the bureaucratic run-around should not be happening. It's bad enough that a kid with the potential to be a doctor didn't get the chance to pursue that potential. Why make it so hard on him now?

What do Mr. Caburrus and Ms. Thirkill think about all of this now that they've read the article and seen the response to it?

For what it's worth, I'm impressed at what you've accomplished with the obstacles you faced.

Aldrena Thirkill: I agree that all that you said and I don't understand either, it seems as fit the doors keep closing. I was in awe that Henry was denied admission to Longwood. The article left me speakless because Liza did such a wonderful job. The first person that called me was in tears after reading the article

Henry Cabarrus: I feel that the scholar ship program did limit our educational goals to a restricted format. I have a former co-worker that 1st applied to Saint Paul's for the BS in Business, but dropped out because she wanted to pursue computer training to enhance her nursing career. The shcolarship program does not allow us to pursue post graduate deegrees as well.

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Liza Mundy: Henry Cabarrus, when he gets a chance, might also want to respond to the question about adjusting to school in a different city. He has vivid memories of leaving Prince Edward County on the train bound for for Yellow Springs, Ohio, and, after that, attending school for two years in Massachusetts. So Henry, if you want to talk about your own experiences in a new environment, feel free.

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Ashburn, Va. : What happened to the African American teachers who were teaching the black students in the segregated schools? Why didn't the black parents, and other black people who didn't have children, pool their resources to pay the black teachers to continue to teach their children in a few sites, such as black churches, until Prince Edward County schools were integrated?

Liza Mundy: A good source for the historical background on the school closings is a book by the journalist Bob Smith, called They Closed Their Schools. My understanding of what happened to African American teachers and schools is based largely on this book, and to a certain extent from time I spent in state archives. It was a very, very difficult situation: segregationalist leaders in the county actively and immediately began raising money for a private white school, and the leaders of this movement were able to tap not only local resources, but out of state resources as well. Meanwhile, local black churches did make an effort to provide some classes for African American children, but the resources they had at their disposal were not nearly so substantial, and nobody was offering to let them use the front page of the local newspaper to try and raise money. Also, at a certain point the white leaders offered to set up a separate, private school system for African American schoolchildren as well. THis put the NAACP in a very difficult situation. It was a trap, really: if the needs of the African American schoolchildren were being met, however inadequately, through a privately funded system, then the case might not be so compelling. And remember, what got this whole situation started in the first place was the fact that historically, the public facilities for black schoolchildren were so inferior to the facilities for white schoolchildren. Clearly, a two-tier private system would suffer the same disadvantage. But the fact that the NAACP did reject the idea of a separate private school for black children enabled the white leaders to essentially blame the NAACP for what was happening; I read the old editorials, and they are all about how the NAACP had "forced" the school closings after "rejecting" the generous offer to build a private school for black children. It was a very tricky, very difficult situation.

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Farmville: I am hoping that your story, Liza, will open doors for Henry, and others, and attract funding, from government or foundation or benefactor, to reach the scholarships to out of state students and to the children of those locked out of schools.

Liza Mundy: Yes, there is certainly an opportunity for the state to expands its program, or, just as you say, for a benefactor to step in and expand upon what the state has set in motion. I know that Ken Woodley's initial vision was that the scholarship WOULD apply to people who live out of state, and that it would also apply to their children and grandchildren, who were affected in their own way by the fact that their parents or grandparents were denied schooling. It took an enormous effort for Ken to get the state legislature to commit the amount of money that it did, and getting that commitment was a huge achievement. Perhaps Virginia will decide to continue and expand the financial commitment, but barring that, this does seem a prime opportunity for foundation or charitable funding.

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Washington, D.C.: Liza, your response to Ashburn, Va., was very good. We did have educational centers in churches in which displaced teachers participated. I attended a center for one year prior to relocating to another county for formal education.

Liza Mundy: That's very interesting. Thank you for adding that comment. Feel free to write back in and elaborate on your own experience.

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Washington, D.C.: My name is Fran Harris, who was a student at First Rock Elementary School in 1959, along with Aldrena. In fact, we have the exact same birthday. I believe Henry is a distant cousin. I was in Prince Edward for eighteen months prior to June 2006, and had the desire to participate in the scholarship program. However, learned that I was ineligible because I had not been a resident for one year prior. I feel the residency requirements are VERY unfair, and wish they could be changed. Are any efforts being made to change the eligibility criteria?

Henry Cabarrus: I agree that the residency requirements are unfair. Senator Benjamin Lambert, would be the person to get the final answer from. However I understand that the legislature is preparing to close out on this scholarship program when the current applicants complete their program curriculum

Henry Cabarrus: Fran Harris my email address is henry-9production@hotmail.com. Please contact me to explain our family relationship.

Aldrena Thirkill: I got a letter saying that they were meeting at Moton on the Wed, 8 Nov to discuss the Scholarship Program, however, I won't be able to attend. Fran I can't place you right now but would like to me in touch. Perhaps Henry will be attending.

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Woodbridge, Va.: How long did it take you to adjust to school in Maryland after you relocated?

Aldrena Thirkill: I don't think I every really adjusted to school in Maryland. The memory of the school is still lost to me.

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Largo, Md.: I am from Farmville and the article pointed out a lot that I did not know about the school closings in Prince Edward County. Growing up there you think I would have known more about it. I think I learned more about the closings once I got to Howard University than I did while in Farmville.

It is unfortunate that they have chosen for you the path that you should now take in pursing an education. Why do they think that a business degree is better than any other? It seems that the legislature has used this scholarship to just pacify and not really try to mend an autrocity. I believe that a degree in Social Work is a very useful degree. Were they afraid that with a B. S. degree in Social Work you would have to return to school to further your studies and obtain a Master's degree and have to ask for more money or did they not want to give people of color to earn advanced degrees? It is really hard to know what they were thinking when they set aside the funds.

I wish you both continued success and hope more of your fellow PE 'classmates' will take advantage of the chance they have been given.

Henry Cabarrus: Thank you for your well wishes. From my understanding of the scholarship program, it will be closed out with only the current enrolled students, and no new students may apply beyond this year.

Aldrena Thirkill: Thanks for the well wishes as well, it beyond me what thought factors are behind their thinking, but it is very unfair. I have a brother who don't live in VA who is also not eligible for the scholarship.

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Adelphi, Md.: I want to commend all of you for your efforts in getting this story to the public. As a clinical social worker working in schools for children with development disabilities including emotional disturbance, I understand the importance of a first-rate education for everyone. I see many students today dismissing education and it saddens me. I will recommend that our teachers use your article to encourage our students to take advantage of the opportunities that Aldrena, Henry, and other were denied. Thank you all again, and please keep up your efforts to right old wrongs.

Liza Mundy: Thank you so much for that comment. I'm just going to post it. The point about sharing the article with schoolchildren is a great one. While reporting the article, I admired so much the fact that Aldrena's granddaughter, Mykhayla, is avidly interested in this history, and recognizes its importance, both to her own family and to the country. I also talked about the topic to my own children, who are 8 and 11. My family is from Virginia, and this history is all of ours.

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Washington, D.C.: Thanks for a well-written, compelling story, and thanks, also, to those who were willing to share their stories with you. I couldn't help but wonder, the scholarship program is a start, but is that 'all' that Virginia is doing for those people who were denied an education in the 1960s? Have those who were affected thought of filing a civil suit? What is the cost of a dream deferred?

Henry Cabarrus: As I understand it, there are no other reparation type programs being iniated at this time, nor any law suits.

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Mitchellville, Md.: To both Ms. Thirkill and Mr. Carbarrus, I salute you for having pressed on to learn and to secure diplomas and degrees. I am appalled that a county would close its doors in defiance of a federal court order; however, it is sad to say that I am never surprised at the tragedies and murders that have sprung up from racial hatred.

Ms. Thirkill: I could hear voices similar to yours speaking about the silence with which they lived in their youth. Sadly, being told to "be quiet" and "don't ask questions" mars your entire life. Have you thought about taking assertiveness training?

For Mr. Carbarrus:

Do you think you may still pursue some medical education. If you don't, I wish you great success with the Moton project.

Henry Cabarrus: I don't believe that I will pursue any strictly medical curriculum due to amount of training time needed before I could put it into practice. I do hope to gain enough training and education beyond this degree to become a consultant to small businesses, non-profit type, to pass on some of my learned experience.

Aldrena Thirkill: I've taken courses in assertive training and have progressed a long ways, but the school closing was an area that hurt to deeply and was blocked out of my memory. Thankfully now, some of that memory is coming back. I believe I'm at a place to deal with it now and slowly walk through the pain. Thanks for your question

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Woodbridge, Va.: This question is for both Aldrena and Henry: Is it hard to go to or live in the county after all that happened? I understand that many of those affected by the school closures moved out of the county and out of the state for that matter. Even if the place is "home," I think it would be hard to live there or think of retiring there with so many bad memories.

Aldrena Thirkill: What's hard for me is looking at today and realizing that things have not changed all that much. I keep the memory of my family as a guide to make an unbearable situation bearable. I do plan to retire there after this.

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Hyattsville, Md. 20784: I was feeling Aldrena's pain as I read the article becasue it happened to me too. We were in the same class. I can not take advantage of the scholarship progam because I live in Maryland. This is the second time that I have been "Left Out." Can the eligibility requirements be modified to include persons in my situation?

Aldrena Thirkill: I certainly hope that the eligibility requirements will be changed and I don't know how much will be discuss in the meeting on Wed but I plan to contact Ms. Edward in hopes that she will share my concerns with the other members.

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Largo, Md.: Why did they set time limits on this scholarship?

Aldrena Thirkill: I don't know why they set a time limit, but the closure changed the course of many people lives and their is no limit for that

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Henry Cabarrus: Aldrena and Fran, I will be attending the November 8th meeting at the Moton Museum, with Senator Lambert to discuss the scholarship program. Please use my email for future communications.

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Aldrena Thirkill: I like to extent a heartfelt thanks to all the questions and concerns from the Washington Post Readers. I find it less difficult to talk about when people are truly interested in what I have to say. Liza, thanks for the wonderful article. Thanks again to all the Wash Post Readers

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Henry Cabarrus: To all of the empathic readers, I have enjoyed the opportunity to chat live with you and hope that you will spread the word that more work is needed to complete the resolution to our problem "being left out." Thanks again and maybe we shall talk somewhere else.

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Baltimore, Md.: I take great exception with the comments in the article about J. Barrye Wall. I knew Mr. Wall, and he was nothing like he was described in the article. There is a lot of revisionist history going on in this article. Mr. Wall has been deceased for several decades now and is not able to defend himself, but I certainly will. He was not by any means pugilist. He wrote what he thought at the time and he took responsibility for his beliefs and actions. Time has proved that some of them were not in the best interests of all the people of P.E. County, but at the time he did what he thought was right as he knew it. It is not in anyone's best interest now to disparage the dead. If this description came from Ken Woodley, he is absolutely incorrect. He cannot compare himself with Mr. Wall -- Ken Woodley is not half the man J.B. Wall was, either in character nor in his ability to perform his job. Under his editorialship, the Farmville Herald has turned into liberal, second-class operation, and does not reflect the views of the citizens of Farmville or Prince Edward County -- of which I am a native.

Aldrena Thirkill: I was too young to know or remember Mr. Wall, but I believe during that time everyone was working with what they knew. It was an unfortunate situation

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Liza Mundy: I'd just like to say, appropos of that last comment, that the reference to "pugilism" was my own, based on my own extensive reading of the Herald editorials of the time, and should not be attributed to Ken Woodley. I think that the word is accurate and justified.

Thanks to all who participated, and especially, thank you to Henry Cabarrus, and to Aldrena Thirkill.

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