Being a Black Man

"I Need a Job"

The unemployed black male has been studied and commented upon more than any other category of the American worker, and always to conflicting conclusions. In " The Meaning of Work", the latest installment of the "Being a Black Man" series, Post staffer David Finkel recounts the experience of one black man's quest to find a job and the barriers he has to overcome to achieve that goal.

On Monday, Nov. 20 at 11 a.m. ET, Finkel was online to respond to your questions and comments about his story.

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David Finkel: Good morning. Thanks for reading the story about Chris Dansby and for sending in questions and comments.

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Arlington, Va.: Mr. Finkel,

Do you feel that the young man in your piece is representative of black males looking for a job? If so, it appears that his attitude, not his aptitude, is what's holding him back, and I am positive that perspective employers see that also.

David Finkel: A good question to start with. I spent a good bit of time looking for someone to write about before going forward with Chris Dansby. I don't know how representative he is of all black men looking for jobs, but he seemed a good represenation of a segment that includes men in their early to mid-20s with high school degrees from less-than-generous backgrounds. As importantly, Chris wasn't someone who wanted to define his problems in broad terms of black-and-white, but in terms of individual responsibility and, at times, self-blame. He came across to me as a good man genuinely searching for some answers, and that search seemed a story worth telling.

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Washington, D.C.: Individual responsibility is a key factor to Mr. Dansby's current station in life. However, environmental issues can have an affect on a young man's mental capacity. I believe he has the caliber of man who recognizes his downfalls and wants more out of life. It is said at 25 is when a man "comes of age." It's the age when you reflect on your past and determine an alternate course for the future. I don't find racial discrimination in this case. Although, and I quote Joe Madison when I say that Black America is "undervalued and marginalized" and conditioned to believe that White America is superior.

David Finkel: Interesting. I think I'll respond to this in a way that doesn't exactly fit the comment. There's an interesting ongoing debate about the reasons that unemployment for black men is so disproportionately high, and to read them is to agree with all of them, even when they contradict each other. if you're interested in explanations, it's worth reading Orlando Patterson, my old Post colleague Juan Williams, Harry Holzer, William Julius Wilson ... well, the list goes on and on. To me, the most compelling thing I read had to do with numbers: 16.3 percent unemployment is Chris' neighborhood, 1.5 in a neighborhood a few miles away. And employment rates of 70 percent for white men, 71 percent for Asian men, 75 percent for Hispanic men, and 60 percent for black men. Arethe reasons cultural? Individual> As you suggest, environmental? The dicussion will go on. But the numbers speak pretty loudly.

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Washington, D.C.: This is like the chicken and the egg story. Which came first? It is so easy to point the finger.

Unfortunately in our Black community there is a breakdown in the family structure. As long as this continues we will have this problem. Who do you blame? You can't point to racism or social services. Where are some of the fathers? The father is very important in a child's life.

As a community we need to stop having children we can't take care of!!! Is it really the government's responsibility to take care of our young, unwed mothers and their children? On one hand this young man is the victim like so many of his environment. On the other hand he needs to understand the importance of education. But while growing up if he did not have food to eat while in class or no role models to encourage him-what else could he do??

Also, as a community we need to bring back values such as love, respect for one another, marriage and education. We spend too much of our time glorifying things that are of no value to our community, BET, thug rap, disrespect, idolizing athletes nd booty shaking.

When did it become acceptable to disregard education and respect for one another. People need to understand education opens doors!!

Just food for thought.

David Finkel: Thanks for the comment. Chris and I spent much time talking about the effects of not having a father as a day-to-day presence. As with everything, he wanted to assign blame to no one other than himself. He would point to friends without fathers who seemed to be doing better than he is as proof that a father's presence doesn't matter; if it did, why would they be doing well? At other times, he knew that having a father as a vague presence did have an impact because he had no close-up role models to learn from and emulate.

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Bowie, MD: After reading your article, I think the biggest impediment to Chris Dansby is himself. His jobs as a Red Hat and at Jiffy Lube gave him a chance to better himself, but oftentimes, he just walks away from the opportunity because he has the self perception that he deserves better.

Why does he deserve better? He has no marketable skills and he is lucky that he had opportunities with Jiffy Lube and working as a Red Hat with his high school diploma that he didn't achieve honestly. If Chris was more motivated, he'd try to save up money and go back to school, but instead, he's just waiting around for someone to throw money at him. His case is not a societal problem, but an individual problem.

I really liked the part in your article where there was an exchange about Hispanic men. Even without the ability to speak English, they are willing to do whatever it takes to get ahead. That is why Hispanic homeownership is increasing because they don't have this ego that they are owed anything. I see many many able-bodied young black men loitering on the corner in D.C. everyday, but I see all the able-bodied Hispanic men at 7-Eleven waiting and trying to get a job.

David Finkel: You ask: Why does he deserve better? I don;t want to speak for Chris, but after getting to know him he would rephrase it to: why can't he do better? He does wonder why he has walked away from certain opportunities. It's worth noting that he kept the red-hat job for, I think, just about two years before leaving. In that case, he said, his mistake wasn't leaving a job that offered no more possibilities than the ones he'd had, but leaving it before he had another job lined up.

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Washington, D.C.: The question should not be, why can't he find a job. He obviously has been able to find a job. He just keeps quitting. What does society owe to people who keep quitting? I don't know why this guy thinks he deserves a job that pays better than $8/hour. He certainly hasn't shown it. Oh, he's a high school graduate? Big whoop-de-do. So I'm wondering, has he quit his latest job as an office furniture mover yet?

David Finkel: No, he hasn't quit. He is up everyday at 4:30 so he can catch the bus to the subway to the next bus and be on time for his shift. He is glad to have the job, in part for the pay and in part because it comes with opportunities to advance beyond the job he was hired to do.

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Washington, D.C.: I found your article to be vry interesting and I'll say that I do believe Mr. Dansby does fit a profile of certain black men. He consistently states that he has a high school diploma and feels he is entitled to earning a certain amount of wages. But high school diplomas only get you so far. He also seems to know what he needs to do, but either frequently chooses not do to it...or takes the easy way out by living with mom or his girlfriend. Could you please comment?

David Finkel: Well, why does he make the choices he makes? That's what he wonders, I think, and it's what I wanted the article to address. It's a long read, but I do think it offers some answers.

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Minot, N.D.: It is not structural racism that keeps Blacks back, it is a cultural behavior that refuses to assimilate into the larger American society that holds Blacks back. If it was racism then why is there such a low unemployment rate among Hispanics, who also face the language barrier?

David Finkel: Thanks for your comment, North Dakota.

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Alexandria, Va.: I'm sorry but I was all sympathetic to Mr. Dansby until what I heard was, "I shouldn't have to work for $7/$8/$9 an hour" and about the CVS job where he left by mid-morning. Of course he doesn't have a job, I wouldn't hire him either if I couldn't be sure he was going to do the work. I get that the hourly rates he is working for don't cut it for a living, especially in this area, but I also get that people do it. Sometimes you have to work two jobs, but that is what you do then and/or you get more education, whether it is community college or a technical school that will teach you a skill. My brother is 34 and has only had part-time jobs in his working life and most of the reason why is because he is morbidly obese and no one wants to keep him on if they don't have to but he worked those crappy jobs and was reliable. He got fired from his last position because he needed to go to the bathroom, couldn't find anyone to take his post so closed up to go and got fired for closing up. He would have loved to have that crappy CVS job. And yes, what you get with a high school education and no other skills are hourly menial jobs. There are places, like Walgreen's, where if you work that menial job and do it well, you can work your way up. You can't work your way up or out if you constantly quit. I worked as a nanny making $10K/year in the early 90s, realized that this wasn't going to work for my life if I wanted to actually have a savings, and worked a second part-time job while attending community college part-time. I then transferred to William and Mary and am now a professional in the DC area. And even still I was lucky, I had good schooling, I had teachers at my community college who believed in me, my friends from high school all went to college, etc. etc. It could have gone the other way though, it did for my brother. Why is it that the men, not just black men though there are structural and societal reasons why it is more pronounced among black men, but why is it that the men feel like they shouldn't have to get paid those wages while we women, hunker down and work? My aunt in Georgia is a good example of that, she has been working at the same drug store as a pharmacist's technician for 25 - 30 years with a high school education. She is almost 60, on her feet all day in spite of having diabetes and problems with her joints, is it perfect, no far from it, but she does it because that is how she survives and how she raised her family. Do we need to have a discussion about getting a living wage for everyone in this country? Absolutely! But how can we have that discussion when we can't be sure people are actually going to show up to work?

David Finkel: Thanks for your comment.Again, one of the reasons I wanted to write about Chris is that he was so genuinely wrestling with the actions he takes. At Rite-Aid, he went from eager to have a job to someone who was talking himself into staying even one more minute. Subsequent to leaving the job, he talked of the examples he did see while growing up -- a mother getting by while doing the most menial of society's work, complaining about it at home, and then getting up the next day and -- on time -- doing it all over again. He did not, and does not, want that for himself. Is that right? Wrong? Some of both?

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Washington, D.C.: Why among the 5,048 words in the article featuring Chris was the word "education" only found twice? Two times! One time being in reference to the P.R. Harris Educational Center.

My point is the this article as well as the black community devalues education. The article focus on the societal and behavioral qualms of the black man but does not adequately recognize that education is key.

By education I do not necessarily mean in the formal sense.

I read the article wondering how many times Chris made an effort to educate himself outside the structure of traditional schooling? How many articles, workshops, or books he read on job-readiness or how to tie a tie for that matter . . .

David Finkel: Thanks for your comments. While the word "education" may have only appeared twice, there was a pretty long section about Chris' middle- and high-school experiences. I can't tell you how many articles, workshops, etc. he has taken advantage of. I can tell you that he did take advantage of some, in which all the things you point out were stressed. If you got to the end of the article, his new boss made the point that unlike most applicants, Chris showed up for his interview early, well-dressed and seemingly well-motivated.

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Washington, D.C.: Although it may not feel like it now, I think Chris will find a steady job that will give him an economic step up the ladder. He appears diligent in his search and committed to success. To his credit, he is taking some of the responsibility for the situation he finds himself in today. That being said, I do think that their exists a bias against young black men whether people are willing to admit it or not. Bias runs deeper than one's consciousness will acknowledge and a number of psychology studies have proven that point. Good luck Chris and hang in there!!

David Finkel: Thanks for writing in.

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Washington, D.C.: I worked to help homeless men find jobs for over 20 years at SOME and now do comparable work for another organization. To me, the proper question is not why Chris can't find a job, it's why can't he keep one. From your description, he's neat, clean, well spoken, good handshake, makes eye contact -- all the things we advise our clients. Since he once held a decent-paying job for 18 months, we know he can do it, or could at the time.

So, why can't he keep a job? Is he depressed? Have drink or drug issues?

I don't know if he could latch on to SOME, but it seems he needs more intense mentoring and perhaps additional job training so he can land a higher paying job.

But mostly I found this article so depressing, because if he can't find/hold a job, no wonder those with more issues can't. I wish him well and hope you will check back with him in a few months and hopefully have something more encouraging to report.

David Finkel: Is he depressed? Not for me to say. He was certainly sad at time. No drinking issues. No drug issues. From what he said, he appreciated the chance to talk at length about his life to someone, which didn't happen much while he was growing up.

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Silver Spring, Md.: This is a comment, not for you, Mr. Finkel, but for some of

the other posters. If this was the story of a young white

man, struggling to find his place in the world, wondering

if he even belongs here, would you be judging him so

harshly? Or would you be sympathetic, recognizing the

very human crisis he's in and hopeful for the future that

the article's tentatively happy ending promises? Just

something you all might want to think about.

David Finkel: Thanks for the comment.

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New York: I want to point out to many of the people writing in that Chris's sense of entitlement is not specific to black people or poor people. I have a Ph.D-educated relative who often walks away from work possibilities -- and winds up relying on the support of everyone else -- because he doesn't want to take work that he sees as any less than an opportunity to express himself exactly the way he'd like. I thought of him often when reading about Chris.

David Finkel: I wonder about the phrase "sense of entitlement." I know I'm repeating myself, but one reason this new job seems to be working out for Chris is that while even though it's not exactly the job of his dreams, it's a job that comes with opportunities to advance. That said, the job at Jiffy Lube did, too ...

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New Carrollton, Md.: As a black male, I have to ask these questions. If you were a business ownwer, would you hire a young black male of today that looks, walks, talks, and dress like he is from the streets to represent your company to the public? Come on now, you have to protect your investment because you stand to lose alot of money if you don't.

It is like I use to tell my students when I was a teacher: "This is a classroom, a place of learning, you will not bring the streets into my classroom; pull up your pants and take a seat." Most of our children think it is cute/cool to take the streets with them whereever they go, and it is not. By doing so, they cheat themselves out of a lot of opportunities. It is up to the parents and community to teach our children better. The last time I checked, it was still a white man's world.

Our definition of being a man or masculine is warped and very street. We're too busy living up to stereotypical images. It is time to grow-up & wise-up, or continue to be left behind.

K.A. Robinson

David Finkel: Thank you for writing in. Chris, I think, would agree with much of what you said.

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Alexandria, Va.: Has Chris Dansby ever spoken to a military recruiter? I know it's a difficult decision to make, but it could improve his life dramatically (I write from personal experience). Even if he's previously spoken to a recruiter and been told he's not eligible, he may be eligible now as the Army is accepting people previously considered ineligle. Not the answer for everyone but a good decision for many.

David Finkel: He did talk to a recruiter, and, from what he described, was moving along in the process and was awaiting answers to a few questions he had. He said he phoned a few times and after not having his calls returned moved onto the next thing.

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Columbus, Miss.: Apart from wanting to advance in his current job, did Chris have any thoughts of enrolling in college of pursuing higher education? And were the job placement centers encouraging the unemployed to seek other avenues of education and not just getting a job?

David Finkel: The job centers -- from what I saw -- do stress education. On a case by case basis, they push some people toward employment and others toward continued schooling, often in technical schools. How effective is this? I can't say. The Post published a very good piece earlier this year about the long lag times in getting applicants into schools.

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Columbia, Md.: Great Article. I see this type of situation with the males in my family more often than not. Growing up they never had to work hard and in many cases I blame the parents. When it is time for them to get out in the real world they can't adapt because they never had to take responsibility for themselves. Many never get out of those situations because there is always someone around being an enabler. If it's not their mother, it's their girlfriend or some other woman taking care of them. We cannot allow these boys to think they are men just because they turned 18.

David Finkel: Chris' perspective: As he said about his mother, "My mother did her best. But she didn't even prepare herself for life, so how could she prepare me?" And as he said to his mother: "I mean it's not my mother's fault. It's my fault. It's my responsibility."

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Upper Marlboro, Md.: Much kudos to Mike Rogers. He quite expertly explained why young black people born into the the lower socio-economic strata often lack the motivation and coping skills necessary to move forward in this world even when they know (as Chris said he did) that it's their responsibility to make their lives better.

I was struck by the incongruity between the article's portrayal of Chris Dansby's "poverty" and the photographs showing him with a cellular phone, $100+ sneakers and designer jeans.

I wish Mr. Dansby well in all of his future endeavors.

David Finkel: Yeah, I was expecting this question. I remember I did a story once in Tunica, Mississippi, long before gambling proceeds showed up there, and the article included a photograph of people living in the worst conditions -- and in the photograph was a TV set. So with that one detail, the people were deemed dismissable by some readers. In the the case of the photo of Chris -- the cell phone, a fairly cheap throwaway, wasn't working; I know this because of how often I called it without success. The $100+ sneakers were anything but, and the jeans were some jeans. I guess what I'm saying is that there are plenty of authenticating details in the article to pay attention to. As for your wishing Chris Dansby well, I will pass along those sentiments to him along with your others.

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Washington, D.C.: In response to the Silver Spring poster, sympathy and hope is great, but doesn't pay the bills. Motivation pays the bills. The employers at Rite Aid, Red Hat, Jiffy Lube, etc. gave him sympathy and hope with a job, but he walked away from all that.

David Finkel: here's one reaction to Silver Spring, and ...

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Response to Silver Spring, Md.: The issue is not whether responses would be tempered if Chris was white. The problem is the crime that is committed by young Black youth across America. Why is it that Black youth are under-educated, unemployed, and in the penal system? Is it cultural or structural? Blacks are more likely to be the victim of crime by another Black than they are by any other race. This is a problem that finds its roots in under-education and unemployment and not racism.

David Finkel: here's another.

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Washington, D.C.: Good morning, Mr. Finkel!

I found the article interesting, although somewhat depressing. What astounded me was the defeastist attitude of Chris' mother. How could someone who is surrounded by negativity--whether conveyed by thought, words or deeds--overcome that? In all honesty, her attitude (which obviously rubbed off on Chris) drove me absolutely batty. I mean how could you not know for a year that your child wasn't attending school?

David Finkel: Thanks for your comment. I can't explain the actions of Chris' mother; for one thing I know only bits and pieces of her background. Your questions make me want to re-read the great series about Rosa Lee that was in the Post 10 or so years ago that was a generational study of poverty and its consequences.

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Washington, D.C. : I'am an African American who is looking for work and experienced the casual racism predomininately white firms push on blacks. I wonder if you encountered this in your interviews.

David Finkel: There have been some studies on this. One of the most interesting was one done two years ago out of Princeton in which "testers" were sent to various job locations in and around New York City. All were of similar age and background and carried similar resumes and had been coached as to what to say in interviews. Some were white, some were black, some were Hispanic. The findings: even though all appeared the same on paper and in person, whites got the most favorable response, then Hispanics, then blacks. As interesting I thought was that whites whose resumes reflcted a criminal background were hired or called back for a second interview as often as blacks whose resumes indicated a clean background.

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Silver Spring, Md.: I know a lot of people will say that the young man featured in the article yesterday needs to show more initiative and pull himself up by his boot straps, etc. That's true. Yes, he could do more to help himself. But there are white males who are just as lazy and unfocused as he is, but society will pull them up by their boot straps and give them more chances than this kid can ever imagine. It's not just a class issue, but a race issue. Two lazy, unfocused men go to a job interview: one white and one black. The white male, even if he is lazier and even more unfocused, will get the job because he is white and enjoys a presumption of competence. At least the lazy and unfocused white male in most cases won't get the job over a competent and focused black male any more. I guess that's progress.

David Finkel: Worth posting, especially following the previous response.

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David Finkel: There are lots of questions I'm not getting to, but I'm afraid time for this chat is up. A last thought: To those interested in the topic who have a sense of the issue and of Chris only through the questions in this chat, I hope you'll find time to read his story. It's available on www.washingtonpost.com/blackmen along with all of the other stories that are part of the Post's series on "Being a Black Man." Thanks for all of your good questions and comments, and I'm sorry I didn't get to all of them.

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