Students in Limbo

Washington Post staff writer Ian Shapira was online Tuesday, Nov. 21 at 3 p.m. to discuss his story about area students who do well in school but struggle with state exams.

A transcript follows.

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Ian Shapira: Good afternoon metropolitan Washington, the nation, the world! Welcome to the chat. Let's talk about everyone's favorite education topic: standardized exams.

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Grade Inflation?: These kids are getting trapped by grade inflation. I went to Catholic school, which was immune to these tests. Nevertheless, I was an A and B student in high school but nearly flunked out in my frosh year of college. My high school grades were inflated by extra credit, a generous curve or partial credit. In college, particularly in math, the answer was either all right or all wrong. I literally went from 90s to 20s because of the strict approach. Also, grammar mattered in college papers. I would get As and Bs for content and lose enough points on grammar to lose a letter grade. It took me an entire year to adjust to this. I had concepts, but I did not have detail and structure. As enriching as my HS teachers were, I believe my school did not prepare me adequately. As a professional that uses math, it is a matter of it being right or wrong, not partial.

Ian Shapira: Dear Grade Inflation: I have been hearing about problems like yours from lots of readers and experts out there and this could perhaps make a nice sequel to today's story: Should colleges -- higher education -- have a say in how local K-12 education is shaped? You went to a private school, so you got what you paid for, so to speak. But the issue is still the same and it matters to college professors how well students are being prepared, even if they did got to a school with a strong reputation or got good grades there.

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Former Honors Student: I am a firm believer that education in the U.S. needs to more standardized across the board. If the state has these tests, there should be preliminary test to gauge students, not a remedial class to prepare them. What do they do to measure kids before the exam?

Ian Shapira: Dear Former Honors Student: Lots of people are in your camp, but you run up against issues like federalism and states rights. States have always enjoyed being the ones calling the shots about how their kids should be taught. With a national standardized exam, there is a risk you could be taking that away from them.

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Washington, D.C.: My roommate in my freshman year at U. of Maryland was a straight-A student at his Baltimore Catholic high school and third in his class. He ridiculed my 2.8 GPA since he had a 3.8. But he didn't seem to KNOW anything, nothing about history or politics, no great books, nothing about health or biology or chemistry, mistaken science ideas, just Bible knowledge and a great GPA. He flunked out after one semester complaining that the professors wouldn't LISTEN to his explanations. I always wondered what they graded him on in high school. Aren't standardized tests supposed to show that some schools don't grade correctly?

Ian Shapira: Dear Washington, D.C.:

The only thing that's clear about standardized tests should do is this: that if you pass them, you're good at taking standardized tests. Lots of people argue that it's hard assessing one's true knowledge of material with an exam. It's an age-old argument, but some people are smart and know their stuff, but aren't good with exams.

That being said, a lot of educators believe the exams are thorough mechanisms for measuring the skills of students. And, educators argue, that if a student can't take a test well, then a teacher should teach the kid how.

In your case with your friend, it sounds like you got stuck with a bad roommate (Still feeling the bad blood after all these years?) whose poor schooling revealed itself pretty quickly once he got to college.

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Washington, D.C.: Ian:

Thank you for addressing this important and interesting topic.

I taught history in Virginia for two years and was proud of the fact that my students' grades were closely aligned to their standardized test scores.

How did I accomplish this? I never graded any assignments that did not require students to display understanding. Too many teachers give grades for assignments that simply require students to look up the correct information in a text book. Any student with a bit of self discipline can fill out a worksheet by looking up the correct answers. Thus, many students are being graded on their willingness to do mundane tasks as opposed to their understanding and mastery of the content.

I would guess that there are an equal number of student with lower grades who do very well on standardized tests. These students do not have good organizational skills and/or the desire to complete meaningless assignments. However, these students do know the academic content.

Schools and teachers need to decide what we are assessing -- study skills or academic content knowledge.

Ian Shapira: Dear Washington, D.C.:

It sounds like you are a smart teacher and didn't let students game the system. That's what happens in a lot of these cases: too many teachers give out extra credit or are too lenient and assign easy homework that inflates grades.

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Harrisburg, Pa.: A few years ago, ETS did a study that showed that teachers assign grades to students based on many factors, some of which have little or nothing to do with mastery of the subject. Examples include neatness, punctuality, completion of homework, class participation, etc. This often results in standardized test scores, reflecting actual mastery of the subject, that do not match teachers' grades.

Ian Shapira: Harrisburg! I'd love to know more about this study. You mean, kids were getting A's for arriving to class on time? What about having a good hair day? (To all my friends back at Louisville Collegiate School -- you know that if that were the case, I would have gotten an A in all my classes)

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Woodbridge, Va.: I've found as a high school chemistry teacher(one of the more difficult SOL's in Virginia for students) that I have had relatively few students in the situation of passing the class and not the test. More often I've had students pass the SOL but not the class. Why this disparity?? My classroom grades are not only based on testing but also on classroom performance. Students who don't do their work aren't going to do well, even if they "ace" every test -- not necessarily fail, but end up with a lower grade. The students who do pass the class, but not the SOL are the ones that tend to be my really hard-workers. They struggle with testing, but they work really hard on the classwork which makes up that part of their grade.

Just the view from this side of the desk...

Ian Shapira: Dear Woodbridge: I actually concentrate a lot of my coverage in Prince William County Schools. If you get a chance, shoot me an e-mail: shapirai@washpost.com.

But you make a great point. I've heard this is the case for Advanced Placement tests. Kids who flunk the course, but get a 5 on the AP exam.

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D.C.: Have you found that state exam results vs. class grades are better in NoVa (Fairfax) or Western Montgomery County (Bethesda/Potomac)?

Ian Shapira: Dear D.C.: Are you an overly competitive Fairfax County School Board member? Reveal yourself! Seriously, though: I have not been able to make that comparison. School districts don't keep this data in any uniform or thorough or readily available way.

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Frederick, Md.: Thank you for this article. This is exactly the situation we find ourselves in with our 11-year-old son. In fifth grade he performed poorly on his standardized reading test (after receiving B's in language arts all year). Entering sixth grade this year, his middle school would not permit him to take an elective and instead has required him to take a remedial reading class. He's also receiving outside tutoring on reading comprehension.

What more are parents expected to do? We are frustrated because we received no indication last year that there was a problem until he took the test.

Ian Shapira: Dear Frederick: You are the classic example of this story. I wished I had interviewed you. Can you talk to the teachers at your son's school and ask: What gives? And have you asked your child: What gives? If you really press both of them with questions you'll get some good answers. Maybe the test was too long and he got bored or lazy. Maybe the teacher was teaching the wrong material. Be an investigative reporter, essentially.

Shameless Plug Alert (SPA): And if your kid is having trouble reading, make him start reading newspapers...every day. That's right!

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Santa Barbara, Calif.: I think this story has relevance across the nation. I'm not sure what the situation is like in other states, but here in California there is horrendous grade inflation.

I am a graduate student/teaching assistant at the University of California, Santa Barbara. In order to even be considered to getting into this institution you have to have at least a 3.8 or so. I've taught lab sections in a variety of subject areas ranging from statistics to environmental studies and I can attest to the fact that there is no way that some of these students should have received nearly straight "A's" in high school. That's not to say that there aren't really bright students here, it's just that about 50-70 percent of them have remedial writing skills and math skills at junior high levels.

Starting a few years ago the UC system has had to begin remedial math and writing classes in order to pick up the slack. High schools are churning out straight "A" students who can hardly read, write, or do very basic math. While it is probable that there may be some issues with the tests themselves, I would put my money on the problem being traced back to grade inflation and poor public education.

Ian Shapira: Dear Santa Barbara: Could you e-mail me at shapirai@washpost.com. This may be a follow-up story for me. I want to profile kids who were the bomb at their high school, but then arrived at college and were put in remediation courses, etc.

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Springfield, Va.: Understand when you talk about state rights, however college admission tests are at the national level. I have been very disappointed in the quality of education here in Virginia. I have had experience with both Minnesota and Illinois K-12 schools. They are far above the quality I see in this area. Look at the National test scores by state and you can see a big difference. I think schools are to P.C., they want everyone to pass, and therefore spend most of the teacher's time with the students that should not be in school.

Ian Shapira: Springfield: Shoot me an e-mail when you get a chance: shapirai@washpost.com.

But here's the thing: what's tested on the SAT and ACT is not part of state curriculums. College admissions exams are different from, say, the state Standards of Learning exams, because it's an "achievement" test, not a test that asks you questions about curriculum content. So when a National Test gets discussed, it's in the context of having a curriculum-based test. And who decides curriculums? States do.

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Fairfax County, Va.: I don't see any signs of grade inflation at my kids' Fairfax County high school. My son got a D+ in eighth-grade honors algebra but did quite well on his SOL. A friend's son failed a high school class but got a perfect or near-perfect score on the corresponding SOL. What's wrong with this picture?

Ian Shapira: Dear Fairfax: That's really interesting. I am hearing from several folks about this very same dilemma. Could you shoot me an e-mail? It's shapirai@washpost.com.

I'd love to chat with you offline of course.

What's wrong with this picture you ask? Well, could be that the classes are too hard, or that the exams are too easy, OR, that your kid is an underachiever and has the know-how but doesn't apply himself thoroughly enough. But shoot me an e-mail...

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Bmore: Are you watching "The Wire" on HBO? They are tackling the issues of NCLB, testing, classroom education, and "corner" education. So far, the best indictment of our system since "Savage Inequalities: Children in America's Schools."

Ian Shapira: Yeah, I've seen "The Wire" and that's a great book too. It's not clear whether this phenomena of pass/fail students exists more predominantly in low-income schools or not.

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Anonymous: In the article there is a comment about one of the students that he could not ask for guidance during the test as he could during his classroom teacher's tests. Hello, this is a clue as to why he scored lower than his grades would lead one to expect.

Ian Shapira: Dear Anonymous: And hello to you as well. I included that in the story to show why he had his problem.

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Louisville, Ky.: The kids you profiled--did they pass the tests after remediation courses? If they did, that might indicate that they simply weren't given the material they needed in class the first time around. If they didn't, then that might show they truly were bad test takers.

Ian Shapira: Dear Louisville,

Is this mom, dad, Abraham Levitan? I know it's one of you. I mention Abraham Levitan because he was perhaps the best standardized test taker in human history. I think he takes LSATS and GMATS for fun, when he's not playing in his marvelous band, Baby Teeth. (Note to parents: if your kid is good in music, he's got a strong chance at being good in math.)

Anyway, to answer your question: Kids are typically put in remediation after they fail. But if you fail multiple times, you could be in remediation while you're still trying to pass the exam. One of the kids in the story, the Pakistani from Fairfax, failed the reading SOL four -- FOUR -- times before he finally passed. He said he was immensely grateful for his teachers at Herndon High School.

And I should add how grateful I am to the folks at Herndon High School for letting me come into their school twice and interview their teachers and talk to their students.

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D.C.: Did you come across many students who actually performed much worse in class than on tests? Kids tend to slack off in class but may be able to focus when they know their ability to graduate depends on it.

Ian Shapira: Dear D.C.: A good question and if you look at the transcript of this chat, I believe there's one or two accounts of this little problem. Some kids are great test takers but do kinda shrug off class work. Maybe they're geniuses and they don't know it. Something akin to the main character of "Good Will Hunting" -- the classic underachiever who would never do well in a classroom setting but when given a test question could answer it easily.

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Washington, D.C.: Who determines what is an acceptable grade on a standardized test? Are our children graded on a curve? Is there ever a regrading of tests when an unusual number of students fail or pass? Can a parent ever see a copy of the test that their child failed to see what mistakes have been made and how to improve?

Ian Shapira: Dear Washington: This is a great question. I am thinking about doing a follow-up to my story about the following: Who decides what the cut scores will be -- whether 35 out of 50 is passing or 30 out of 50 is passing? I am told that in Virginia, a committee of educators in K-12 determine that periodically. But it's clearly not an easy answer. If a test is real hard, maybe 30 out of 50 is reasonable, but if the test is easy -- and who determines what's easy? -- then then maybe the cut score should be higher.

Who are the real victims in this whole mess? College teachers. So should college teachers or administrators have a say in these K-12 tests?

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Burke, Va.: The problem with the Virginia SOL exams are that they are testing minimal competence. So a student with a passing score on the SOL should be expected to have a "D" on his report card. Correspondingly, an "A" student should score nearly perfect.

Ian Shapira: This is an interesting thought -- whether SOLs should be graded. That way there's no confusion over what passing means. Of course, lots of educators now want to see kids getting what is called "advanced-pass" or "pass-advanced" on their SOLs.

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Washington, D.C.: Have testing agencies ever thought of providing students feedback on their test scores? It seems that to those who have difficulty with the exams would benefit more greatly from understanding why they failed, not just a number that tells them that they failed. I understand that testing agencies hold their questions close to their chests, but if they want to be completely fair, a student should be able to appeal any grading that is subjective, especially reading and writing.

Ian Shapira: Students do get some feedback on their tests but not a lot. At Kennedy, the math teachers only had their kids scores but no breakdown on how they did.

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Washington, D.C.: Admittedly, I don't have any kids of my own, but from observing the treatment of my nieces and nephews, I'm led to believe that a lot of the problem is grade inflation, and "A for effort" attitude -- which your article barely gives mention to. One of my nephews was sheepish about his honor roll status last Christmas. And it turns out the reason he didn't think it was a huge deal was because every kid except one in his class also made the list. And this isn't exactly a Fairfax County level of school or anything. So I doubt these kids are all the savants the honor roll made them out to be. Didn't D.C. uncover that huge problem a few years ago that kids who hadn't been to class all semester were nonetheless getting C's and in some cases, even B's??

Ian Shapira: Yea, Honor Roll can be misleading. There is a tendency to be a bit boosterish in schools, which explains those bumper stickers.

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Anonymous: The ETS study is apparently no longer online. However, here is a brief summary.

Research Notes

Office of Research and Development RN-04, May 1998

Much of the variation among grades and across subjects, classrooms, and teachers concerns the components used to grade student work. Research has found that the most able students are often graded solely on achievement and less able students are graded on both achievement and effort (Stiggins, Frisbie, and Griswold, 1989). In grades 10-12, approximately one-third of school districts report including student effort in grade de-terminations, attendance, and student growth: to a lesser extent behavior and attitude are also factors considered by a substantial proportion of secondary teachers (Brookhart, 1994; Feldman, Kropf, and Alibrandi, 1996; Robinson and Craver, 1989).

Ian Shapira: I thought I'd post this for everyone to see:

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Burke, Va.: I'm not yet a parent of a school-age child, but will be soon one day. When standardized tests are given to advance a grade or to graduate, are kids given a second or third chance to pass the test before the end of the school year? If so, what is all the fuss about? If a child cannot pass a test that classes are geared around to get kids to pass on multiple attempts, perhaps that child should be left back a year. Parents have too much of a rooting interest in the success of their children and take their child's failure too personally to accept that their kid needs some more work. Teachers today are too afraid of penalizing kids for poor work fearing the wrath of an angry parent. If these kids cannot pass the tests, they're in for a rude awakening when they get to college.

Ian Shapira: And while I'm at it, I'll post this as well.

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Ian Shapira: Alright everyone! I have to run. I am getting summoned by my editor. Thank you for chatting with me and please e-mail me with story ideas that you think are important for The Washington Post to cover.

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