Transcript
Outlook: Iraq's WMD--AK-47s
Monday, November 27, 2006; 12:00 PM
Larry Kahaner, author of "AK-47: The Weapon that Changed the Face of War," was online Monday, Nov. 27, at noon ET to discuss his Sunday Outlook article on how this dangerous weapon is adding to the violence in Iraq. Born out of World War II, the AK-47 was disseminated from the Soviet Union around the world, altering Cold War era conflicts from Vietnam to Afghanistan. In Iraq, it is costing U.S. lives in the hands of insurgents.
Weapon Of Mass Destruction, ( Post, Nov. 26)
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The transcript follows.
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Wharton, N.J.: As I understand it the AK-47 is a reliable rifle but not a very accurate one. OK for engagements up to 150 yards maybe. The American M-16 by contrast is just the opposite, not that reliable, very accurate. The AK-47 is better for close quarters battle where its heavier bullet allows it to more easily pass through walls but in open battle the M-16 is a far superior weapon.
Larry Kahaner: This is ostensibly true. The heavier bullet AK does tend to penetrate wood or stucco for example which is a plus during house to house fighting. The M-16 round will not do that. The AK's heavier bullet is also better suited to areas with large amounts of foliage.
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Lyme, Conn.: What were the most popular paths that these AK 47s took to reach Iraq? Who profited from these sales?
Larry Kahaner: It's never certain how AKs reach their final destination because of the secretive nature of illegal arms trade. We do know that when the US bought AKs for the Iraqi army they bought them from a dealer in Jordan who in turn bought them from Germany.
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Washington, D.C.: Mr. Larry Kahaner, have you ever fired an AK-47? It was reported that Janet Reno's top gun expert never fired a weapon...
Larry Kahaner: I have fired at the NRA range in Fairfax, VA several types of AKs as well as the M-16. I am also able to break down and reassemble both guns.
The AK sometimes feels like it will shake apart but it does not. The M-16, on the other hand, is a sleek, well engineered weapon.
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Great Falls, Va.: Which county manufactures the most AK-47s for export? And to what countries are they exporting them?
Larry Kahaner: China currently produces more AKs than any other country. They have a popular version dubbed type 81. Interestingly, there are so many AKs in the world that the profit margin is low and it's believed that they sometimes use the weapons as a loss leader to promote more expensive weapons.
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Arlington, Va.: I still remember an interview with Tarik Aziz just before the war in which he said that Iraq has imported several containers filled with AK-47 and that if the U.S. invades Iraq every Iraqi will be armed with one of these guns. Was that fact ever taken into consideration when we went to war?
Larry Kahaner: I was unaware of this interview but it certainly supports the notion that US military planners were not taking the threat of large numbers of small arms in Iraq very seriously.
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Silver Spring, Md.: Larry,
Why do you think the United States has been incapable of building an automatic machine gun as simple and effective as the AK-47?
Also, my apologies for not having read your book yet, but I'd like more background the following quote about the M-16's poor performance:
"The culprit, it turns out, wasn't the gun, but the ammunition. M-16s jammed because authorities had insisted on changing the cartridge propellant, and residue clogged the mechanism after repeated firing."
Do you know why "the authorities" insisted on the propellant change that so damaged the M-16's reputation? Was it due to pork-barrel politics or some other short-sighted political decision?
Thanks for your time.
Larry Kahaner: Eugene Stoner, the M-16's inventor specified that stick powder be used in his weapon, and it is not fully understood why Army Ordnance insisted on changing his recommendation. The Ichord subcommittee that later investigated the issue noted that the Army had a cozy relationship with Olin Mathieson, the ball powder manufacturer, which may have influenced the decision to change powders. The subcommittee also noted that because of the powder change, mechanical modifications had to be made to the M-16, and these last-minute changes may have also hurt its performance.
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Gaithersburg, Md.: Why doesn't the US make its own low-cost, easily-assembled weapon, for use by our troops and/or for sale to other nations?
Larry Kahaner: The US military will never adopt the AK for two reasons. One, it's the weapon of the enemy, the anti-Western icon. Second, US military doctrine is that our soldiers are marksmen. They don't waste bullets and they don't shoot indiscriminately. It's a matter of pride and training. The AK is not suited to such an attitude.
Here's a piece I wrote about this that you might find interesting and will more fully address your question.
http:/
Thanks for writing.
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Arlington, Va.: In analyzing violence around the world, it seems to me that it's a bit unhelpful to focus on the particular type of gun. The AK-47 is just a tool, and if it hadn't been invented, something else would be used in its place. The gun doesn't make armed conflict more widespread; it simply reflects the fact that armed conflict is sufficiently widespread as to make such a gun profitable and desirable. What do we really learn by focusing on the AK-47 rather than the man using it?
Larry Kahaner: What matters most, I believe, is focusing on both the person and weapon. You need both for warfare. Having said that, I believe that if you limit the amount of cheap weapons you cut down the chances of someone using it in a moment of anger.
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Piscataway, N.J.: What country makes the best AK-47's? Is it Russia or China?
Thank you
Larry Kahaner: Ironically, Russia no longer makes military AKs but they have plenty in stockpiles - which is how Hugo Chavez is buying his country's AKs.
China is the world's largest producer of AKs
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Shirlington, Va.: What do you think is the "weakest link" in the supply chain of AK-47s to insurgents and criminals where collective action or new agreements by the international community could have the most success?
Larry Kahaner: That is a very interesting question and one that the United Nations studies because so far efforts at stemming illegal arms trading have been less than spectacular.
I am not sanguine about being able to stem illegal arms trades; greed is too strong an incentive.
One area that might bear fruit, however, is marking weapons. This way when they used illegally, they can be traced to their point of origin. This system, too, is full of loopholes and side alleys.
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Ocala, Fla.:"...Discuss his Sunday Outlook article on how this dangerous weapon is adding to the violence in Iraq."
Well, all weapons are dangerous in the right hands. I own an AK derivative (semi-auto only, no selector switch for full auto) and it provides fun at the range and an easy-to-maintain weapon. Let's not demonize guns, instead focus on those who misuse them.
Larry Kahaner: I am not pro or anti-gun. And I don't worry about people like you owning guns. What the article talks about is cheap, automatic military weapons that are in the hands of untrained, undisciplined people or rogue paramilitary forces.
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McLean, Va.: I've been reading some pro-gun people on Amazon comment the book is anti-gun. Is the book pro gun or anti gun?
Larry Kahaner: As I mentioned, I am neither pro gun or anti gun. Interestingly enough, some of the pro-gun factions charge that my book demonizes the AK and blames it for all the world's ills.
Some of the anti-gun groups suggest that my book glorifies the weapon.
Can they both be correct?
People who 'get' the book understand that it is about the social history of this weapon and it's place in modern culture and doesn't take a pro or anti gun stance.
My only bias is against international arms dealers who illegally sell large numbers of military style automatic weapons to obvious rogue players like Liberia's past president Charles Taylor or Al-Qaeda operatives.
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Bowie, Md.: What are the major differences between the AK-47 and the Uzi?
Larry Kahaner: The AK-47 is an assault rifle which uses larger rounds than an Uzi which is a submachine gun. Submachine guns usually use handgun-sized rounds, often 9 mm.
Submachine guns don't shoot very far and are designed for personal protective work - like being body guard.
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Detroit, Mich.: Some technical questions I did not see addressed in your article:
(1) How many rounds a minute does the AK-47 fire?
(2) Have there been any modifications to it since its debut in the 40's?
(3) How does its range and accuracy compare with those guns carried by our troops in Iraq? (Also, what do our troops now carry?)
Larry Kahaner: The AK fires between 600 and 700 rounds per minute depending upon the model. There have been few modifications since the 1940s except in manufacturing and cosmetic changes like changing the wooden stock and hand grip (called furniture) to modern plastics.
Note that most gun historians use the term AK to refer to all variants. The most popular AK is the AKM which stands for AK Modified and it's the one you see most of the time in photos and on TV. But we all know the term AK-47 so I use it or AK even if I'm talking about an AKM or the newer AK-100 series.
The AK is not a very accurate rifle compared to the M-16. Some people say that an AK is best for the untrained or poorly trained soldier while the M-16 works best in the hands of highly trained soldiers. While some legitimate armies that use AKs may disagree there is some merit to the statement.
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Washington, D.C.: If money and troop training were not an issue, which is superior? The AK or M-16?
Larry Kahaner: This is a frequent question and one that is important for the future of the US military.
I don't believe that either weapon is ideal for US troops. As you may know, the US tried to build a new infantry rifle beginning in the early 1990s to replace the M-16 but the program was scuttled after the weapon became too complicated and political interests started to intrude. It's was called the XM-8.
What US troops need more than anything else is a simple weapon that is accurate, rarely jams and can handle the type of wars that the US will be facing in coming years.
I have written a piece on these 'small wars' that you may find interesting and will further answer your question:
http:/
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Cleveland, Ohio: You mention the rise of a "Kalashnikov culture." Is there an American equivalent?
Larry Kahaner: The Kalashnikov Culture is the name given to an economic and social order that relies on the AK-47. It was first used to describe conditions in Pakistan and Afghanistan after it was awash in AKs mainly distributed by the CIA to help the Mujahadeen.
Everyday people not only carried the AK for protection but sold, bought, bartered, built and repaired them and it was source of revenue for an area that sometimes had little else.
I don't see an equivalent in the US.
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Larry Kahaner: What's quite amazing about the AK is how it has found it's way into popular culture. We see it in movies, graffiti, TV shows, anime and even design. Even commercial high-end artists and designers joined the AK design movement, mainly for shock value and to titillate Western consumers. At the Milan Furniture Fair in 2005, world renown designer Philippe Starck revealed high-end table lamps fashioned from replicas of AKs, M-16s and Beretta pistols. Black shades lined with crosses sat atop the lamps.
There is even a company in England that makes an AK magazine/MP3 player. The music player was built into an banana-shaped magazine of the rifle and could be attached to the Kalashnikov rifle instead of the regular magazine or played on its own. It can hold up to 9,000 songs or 3,000 hours of audio books.
You can see more about the popular culture aspect of the AK at my Web site www.AK-47book.com
I don't want to forget to mention that Kalashnikov has a brand of vodka which is a hit in Europe and the Middle East and will come to the states in 2007. He's trying to make up for lost time. He did not make any money off his invention is playing catch-up.
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Ogden, Utah: Seems to me all the commenters so far have missed the real point of your article (or at least the point I saw). Cheap guns were part of the equation that allowed political decisions to spread weapons all over Afghanistan -- the CIA funded program to support Osama bin Laden and his cronies was able to do so very efficiently because the weapons were cheap. Those weapons, in turn, built up a culture in which everyone has a weapon or could get one cheap, leading to the mess our own troops now face today.
Larry Kahaner: Thanks for getting the point. As a nation, we tend to be more fearful of high tech weapons than low tech ones despite the damage they can cause.
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washingtonpost.com: Thank you all for joining us today.
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