Pope Calls for Dialogue During Visit to Turkey

Pope Benedict XVI Hopes to Improve Vatican's Relations with Muslims

John L. Allen Jr. of the National Catholic Reporter was online Wednesday, Nov. 29, at 2 p.m. ET to discuss Pope Benedict XVI's visit to Turkey. An estimated 25,000 gathered in Istanbul to protest in advance of his visit, which is aimed at improving relations with Muslims.

The transcript follows.

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Waipahu, Hawaii: What limits does the Turkish government place on the Orthodox Church? What is the justification in light of the so called "secular" government and the Muslim outrage over a historical quote? Are the Muslims equally outraged over these limitations considering that even British prisoners who are Muslim demand freedom of religion?

John L. Allen Jr.: The small Orthodox community here faces a series of restrictions, both formal and informal. One example is that the seminary of the Patriarch of Constantinople and of the Armenian patriarch have been closed by government edict since 1971. Christian churches here have no legal personality, so they can't own property, enter into contracts, etc. It's difficult if not impossible to get a permit for new churches. All of these issues are what Benedict has in mind when he talks about "reciprocity."

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Tampa, Fla.: How does the Pope engage the Muslim world when it is relatively non-hierarchical, i.e. no such thing as a Muslim pope? Is it mostly media p.r. or are there Muslim leaders that the Vatican interacts with?

John L. Allen Jr.: The Vatican has long-standing dialogues with a number of authoritative leaders in the Muslim world, such as the Al-Azhar University and Mosque in Cairo. But you're quite right that given the absence of a clear "chain of command," one simply has to do the best possible job of seeking out representative voices. In reaction to the pope's Sept. 12 speech at Regensburg, a group of 38 leading Muslim scholars sent him a letter, offering in some sense a rebuttal and volunteering to engage in dialogue. That would also be a good place to start.

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Seal Beach, Calif.: Is it possible that many Western leaders and thinkers privately welcomed the Pope's willingness to raise publicly the subject of (radical) Islam and violence? The aftermath of his speech seemed almost to confirm his point.

Is there an Islamic intelligentsia able and willing to dialogue over matters such as these?

John L. Allen Jr.: Certainly, and some even welcomed it publicly. I think it's important to grasp, however, that while the pope certainly meant to challenge Muslims, he didn't mean to offend them, and my impression is that he learned something about the use of language from the reaction to his Sept. 12 speech at the University of Regensburg. It's also important to bear in mind that in that speech, he wasn't just criticizing Muslims. He was criticizing any separation between reason and faith, and he spent most of his time on the Western tendency to cultivate reason without faith, which he believes ends in nihilism.

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Washington, D.C.: A priest friend of mine once told me that his view of the Vatican's opposition to ordaining women as priests was that could be an impediment to the Catholic Church engaging more closely with Orthodox faiths, which do not ordain women.

How much credence would you put on this theory? And could you ever envision a day when women can serve God and the Church at the same level as men?

John L. Allen Jr.: I think the basic reason the Vatican resists women's ordination is theological ... i.e., they believe that since Christ did not ordain women, the church has no power to do so. Further, since Christ was male, they believe it's appropriate for the person who "stands in," so to speak, for Christ in the sacraments to be male. Having said that, there's no question that any move to ordain women in the Catholic Church would have negative ecumenical consequences for the Orthodox, just as the Anglican decision to ordain women in the 1970s and 1980s put a damper on ecumenism with the Catholics.

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Arlington, Va.: Can you clarify the original controversy about the Pope's comments? First, I heard he was quoting a scholar when he made the comments about Islam being spread by the sword. I've heard Muslim scholars acknowledge a similar idea. Many Christians don't deny the crusades. Second, are these protests because of those comments, or is Catholicism generally unpopular in Turkey? Thanks.

John L. Allen Jr.: The protests were not confined to Turkey. Yes, the pope quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor in a dialogue with a Persian scholar, saying that Mohammad "brought things only evil and inhuman and spread his faith by the sword." While some Muslims would be willing to acknowledge an element of truth to that, most were offended by the harsh language. Five days later, Benedict said that the quotation from Emperor Manuel II Paleologous did not reflect his personal opinion. He cited it, rather, to make a point about the relationship between reason and faith.

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Washington, D.C.: Did Pope John Paul II visit Turkey during his time as pope? If so, how was he received?

John L. Allen Jr.: Yes, John Paul II visited Turkey in November 1979, and he was received quite warmly. As with Benedict, the fundamental purpose for the trip was to meet the Patriarch of Constantinople. However, John Paul also met with Muslims, one of more than 60 meetings with Muslims over the course of his papacy.

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Arlington, Va.: Hi Mr. Allen,

If I recall correctly, the Catholic Church had declared the Iraq war to not be a just war. Do you think this could lead to some sort of common ground with angry Muslims?

John L. Allen Jr.: The Vatican actually opposed both Gulf Wars on moral grounds. I think it was disappointing to many officials in the Church that some of the Muslim protestors either didn't seem to know that or had forgotten it, because some accused Benedict of providing religious "cover" for the war. For anyone who knows even a bit of recent Vatican history, it's an absurd suggestion.

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Washington, D.C.: Have the protests subsided since he arrived? How are government leaders dealing with public opinion?

John L. Allen Jr.: To be honest, the protests were not that dramatic to begin with. The biggest one was on Sunday and drew about 20,000 people, whereas the organizers had originally projected a million or more. Most Turks that I've met are either indifferent to the pope's presence or are glad he's here, since it gives them a chance to showcase their country, especially at a time when they're trying to enter the European Union.

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Bethesda, Md.: What seems to be lost in the protests in Turkey--which I have to say appear rather muted--is that Benedict's trip is intended to mend fences with the Orthodox church based in Istanbul. Is the Patriarch there the spokesman for all Orthodox faiths, or just the Greek one? And what do you see as the Vatican's long-term goal for such overtures? Eventual communion with the Orthodox religions?

John L. Allen Jr.: I think in the short run, the Vatican is hoping for joint efforts with the Orthodox in defense of shared values, which is especially important in the contest of strong secularism in many parts of Europe. In the long run the aim is full structural unity -- putting Eastern and Western Christianity back together. But that remains, for now, a fairly distant objective because of deep differences between the two sides, above all over papal authority. By the way, it's worth noting that some Turks have a deep suspiciousness about Orthodox/Catholic unity, because it awakens memories from the Ottoman era of fear of joint axis between Rome and Constantinople against the Muslims. Hence Benedict is trying to explain that his kind of ecumenism is not directed against anyone.

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Chicago, Ill.: While it is understood that Patriarch of Constantinople is first among equals in the Orthodox world, isn't the real action with the Russian Patriarchate? Why has not that advanced?

John L. Allen Jr.: You know, the word "Byzantine" was in a sense invented to describe the politics of Eastern Orthodoxy. Moscow, Athens and Constantinople all joust for the right to be seen as the most important Orthodox see. As for why things haven't advanced with Moscow, while here has been progress, it tends to be of a "one step up, one step back" sort. Though it's a complicated situation, at the end of the day it comes down to power. The Orthodox, especially the Russians, don't want to be swamped in a unified Christian church by the power and jurisdiction of the pope.

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San Juan, P.R.: If the Orthodox leader Bartholomew decided to reunite with Rome, could he do so on his own? Would he need the consent of the other Patriarchs? How would that work?

John L. Allen Jr.: In theory he could bring back the Church of Constantinople into unity with Rome without the consent of, say, Moscow or Athens, but even there he would have to secure the consent of his own Holy Synod (the body of bishops and elder clergy in the Patriarchate). But in reality, he would not take such a major step without the support of his brother patriarchs and bishops in the other Orthodox churches.

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Alabama: How would you compare Benedict's diplomacy to John Paul II? John Paul's church made several potentially inflammatory statements about the supremacy of the Catholic faith (many drafted by Ratzinger), but his popularity did not seem to suffer in Muslim world.

John L. Allen Jr.: On Islam, I would say that Benedict has a slightly tougher approach than John Paul, who was the great pioneer and bridge-builder. He met Muslims more than 60 times and was the first pope to enter a mosque (I was there, in Damascus in 2001). Benedict wants dialogue, but he wants it to be more than being polite to each other. He also wants to talk about real issues, most particularly terrorism and religious freedom. Yet he also wants good relations with Muslims, because the "clash of civilizations" that worries him is not between Islam and the West, but between belief and unbelief. In that regard, he thinks of Muslims as natural allies.

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Arlington, Va.: Do you think the Pope has been sufficient in his apology for the remarks made in September? He has said he 'regretted' them, yet many seem to think that is not enough. Do you believe the situation should have been handled differently?

John L. Allen Jr.: Most people I know in the Vatican would say that the point Benedict was trying to make in Regensburg, i.e., that reason and faith need one another, is perfectly valid, and that in some ways the problem of integrating reason with faith is a special challenge these days for some currents of Islam. Yet most would also say that the language he used, without nuance, was regrettable, because whatever he meant by it, it would not be received well by most Muslims. So, with the benefit of hindsight, most do believe the situation could have been handled differently. On the other hand, the one virtue of the uproar is that at least it got the world's attention and started a serious conversation about Christian/Muslim relations and about the role of reason in religious matters.

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Washington, D.C.: How frequent are foreign papal visits? Is this his second after traveling to Europe soon after he became Pope?

John L. Allen Jr.: Over the course of his papacy, John Paul II took 104 trips to more than 120 countries. So far, Benedict has taken five trips -- Germany twice, Spain, Poland, and now Turkey. By the way, I'm responding to these questions from my hotel room in Istanbul, having flown in to cover the trip on the papal plane. We arrived in Ankara on Tuesday, and today visited Ephesus before arriving in Istanbul this evening.

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Fairfax, Va.: I understand that the original purpose of the Pope's visit to Turkey was not, in fact, an attempt to improve relations with Moslems. Rather, it was to meet with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and discuss intra-Christian issues. One of which is to support Turkish Christians in their attempt to worship freely, choose their own bishops, etc. against Moslem and secular interference.

I read words of peace and brotherhood coming from the pope. The preceding pope---and the West---was merciful and forgiving to the Turk who tried to kill him. I do not hear reciprocal voices of peace, tolerance and humility coming from the Moslem side.

John L. Allen Jr.: Your point is well-taken, though in fact such voices are there if one seeks them out. After 9/11, for example, the leader of the Al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, widely regarded as perhaps the most influential in the Muslim world, issue a fatwah indicating that the hijackers could not be considered martyrs because it is against Islamic doctrine to kill the innocent. Obviously, we need to hear from such voices more regularly and with greater emphasis.

You're also right that the original purpose for this visit is to meet the Patriarch of Constantinople. I've just returned from the vespers service the pope and patriarch conducted tonight at the Phanar, the headquarters of the patriarch, and it was a beautiful experience.

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Chantilly, Va.: I feel like an idiot for even asking this, but Turkey isn't in Europe, it's in Asia, so why would it want to be in the European union? Seems like it would make more sense for Turkey (or other countries) to organize the same sort of thing for Middle Eastern countries.

John L. Allen Jr.: Turkey actually straddles Europe and Asia, which is both part of its historic strength and also the source of its on-going identity crisis. Back in 2004, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger made a suggestion similar to yours, namely that rather than joining the EU, Turkey should play a leadership role in a network of Islamic states. Yesterday, however, Ratzinger as pope reversed field to some extent and said that he "views positively" the steps Turkey is taking to enter Europe.

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Stafford, Va.: I am opposed to the Pope's attempt to reach out to Islam, because this religion is too conducive to violence, terror, autocracy and disregard of human rights. Some liberal authors, such as Karen Armstrong, have tried too hard to sugar-coat Muslim beliefs. A recent new book--Muhammad--sets out the record more bluntly--concerning Muhammad's involvement with underage women (and multiple wives), the violent nomadic culture that he grew up in, and his exhortations to convert all non-believers to Islamic law, by force if necessary. Too much tolerance is shown to this faith and its natural tendency towards terrorism and jihad.

Another historical fact to note is that Christianity was a victim of persecution and martyrdom during the first three centuries of its existence, but Islam began by violent conquest almost from its beginning in the seventh century AD.

Thank you.

John L. Allen Jr.: One can certainly make a case for the impossibility of dialogue if you like, but I suppose the pope's attitude would be, what's the alternative to trying? There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, and we cannot pretend they're not there. Moreover, to speak in sweeping terms about what all Muslims think is a bit like claiming to know what all Christians believe -- in other words, it's an over-generalization that disguises massive complexity. Either we start building barricades, or we engage that complexity.

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Falls Church, Va.: Can you comment on how Pope Benedict is doing as Pope, aside from this visit? How is he viewed within the Vatican and Catholic church?

John L. Allen Jr.: Depends on who you ask, as with any leader. However, one thing most would agree on is that he's been a bit of a surprise, at least as measured against popular expectations. Given then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's profile as a strong conservative, many were expecting a sharp lurch to the right in Vatican policy. In fact, so far he's been a relatively moderate, cautious, and pastoral figure. Certainly his most senior appointments have not shown any sharp ideological tendency. In that sense. I suppose some find that encouraging, others disheartening.

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Arlington, Va.: Pope John Paul II made his opposition to the war in Iraq well known. If Pope Benedict spoke out against the war more, would it help his standing in the Muslim world, or would he be painted as capitulating to pressure?

John L. Allen Jr.: Perhaps if Benedict started talking about it only now, it might be seen as a cave-in to pressure. But in reality, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was in agreement with John Paul II. He said clearly that under the conditions that existed in the spring of 2003, he regarded the proposed war in Iraq as immoral. He also said that the concept of "preemptive war" does not appear in the teaching of the Catholic Church. Hence I don't think any statement he would make on the war could be interpreted as a matter of convenience.

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Alexandria, Va.: John, I love your reporting for National Catholic Reporter. In the past, there has been a great deal of opposition to Orthodox-Catholic dialogue on the part of conservative Greek religious like the monks of Mt. Athos (cf. John Paul the Great's visit to Greece). Has there been much of a change in attitudes since then?

Also, when Pope's John Paul and Benedict say that the Eastern churches don't have to accept an idea of papal supremacy any more developed than at the time of the schism, what are the concrete implications of that? How can there be full communion of they do not accept the teaching authority of the post-schism Ecumenical councils (Lateran, Florence, Trent, Vatican I, Vatican II, et al.)? The "uniate" Eastern churches have accepted a more robust model of papal authority.

John L. Allen Jr.: No, there's been no change to the anti-ecumenical stance of the Mt. Athos community. (Of course, there are parallel attitudes on the Catholic side too).

Good question on your second point, and I think that's the heart of the theological dialogue these days between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church. I think what John Paul and Benedict meant is that they would not insist upon the same kind of jurisdiction in the East that popes came to possess in the Western church. Undoubtedly, however, the Catholic vision of what that means would still include a robust degree of ultimate papal authority, which will always be anathema to many Orthodox. Right now, it's difficult to see how that problem can be resolved.

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Ann Arbor, Mich.: What exactly is meant by the term "first among equals"? If any reunification between west and east were to occur, what would the church governance look like, and is it Benedict's belief that reunification in the east would combat secularism?

John L. Allen Jr.: Yes, I think Benedict believes that a reunified Christian church would be in a stronger position to resist the inroads of secularism, especially in Europe. As for what the governance of such a reunified church might look like, that's the subject of theological debate right now between Orthodox and Catholic representatives on official dialogue bodies. In general, the pope would remain as the primate of the unified church, but exactly what role and powers he would have remains to be seen.

"First among equals" is a traditional title associated with the Patriarch of Constantinople. Orthodoxy has no pope, so in theory all the heads of the 15 autonomous Orthodox churches (Russia, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, etc.) are equal. Yet because Constantinople is the "second Rome," its patriarch has always been accorded a sort of "primacy of honor" -- hence "first among equals." It does not give him any jurisdiction over church affairs outside his own territory, and those areas in various parts of the world directly dependent upon him.

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Northeast Washington, D.C.: I visited Istanbul last year and managed to strike up a friendly relationship with a woman who wore a full burkha in my hotel. Prior to visiting I was of the opinion that these women were oppressed and subjugated but after chatting with her during that week and watching how devoted her husband was to her, I realized that I needed to think outside the box. I think the Pope's visit is a great gesture. He made a mistake and is now taking the time to see for himself how Muslims live and worship.

John L. Allen Jr.: My experience is that Muslim women have different takes on issues of dress. Some find veils, burkhas, etc., stifling and oppressive, others find it positive in that it roots them in a tradition, and it ensures that others interact with them on the basis of personality and not their physical features. This is what makes respect for human dignity, including freedom of conscience, such an important part of the equation. Religious practice of any sort can be a beautiful thing, as long as it's freely chosen.

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Silver Spring, Md.: What is the percentage of Catholics living in Turkey, or other major Muslim nations like Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, etc.? Are these communities fairly isolated, or integrated into those societies?

John L. Allen Jr.: In Turkey, Christians represent a tiny minority -- maybe a little over 100,000 out of 72.5 million. There are more Catholics in Indonesia, and a surprising number in Saudi Arabia -- some estimates run up to a million, composed mostly of Filipino, Korean and Vietnamese guest workers. Though situations differ dramatically, it's a fair statement that most of the 56 majority Muslim nations face some struggles related to granting religious freedom to their minorities.

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Los Angeles, Calif.: This seems to be a more prominent example of Muslim-Catholic tension. Can you compare this to Muslim-Protestant relations?

John L. Allen Jr.: It's really a question of apples and oranges, because with Protestants the Vatican is dealing with fellow Christians, whereas with Muslims it's an entirely different religious tradition. But I suppose one could say that because religion stirs the deepest passions of the human person, whenever people of different religious persuasions collide there's always potential for great good and for tremendous heartache. With both Protestants and Muslims, the Catholic Church has seen its share of both over the centuries.

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Chicago, Ill.: The Pope has visited several sacred biblical sites, like Ephesus, during his visit. Do any of these "overlap," so to speak, as often happens in places like Jerusalem?

John L. Allen Jr.: In a sense, yes. For example, the "House of Mary" he visited today in Ephesus, regarded by one tradition as the house in which Mary died, is a pilgrimage site for both Muslims and Christians. Mary is actually mentioned more often in the Qu'ran than the New Testament, and she's revered by Muslims as a model believer (though not, as in Christian doctrine, the Mother of God). Hence Ephesus is in that sense a natural "bridge" between Christians and Muslims.

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Washington, D.C.: How is John XXIII remembered in Turkey? Was he a well-known figure in the country, and among the Orthodox community? Does Benedict XVI reflect a similar approach to Turkey and to Islam as his predecessors did?

John L. Allen Jr.: Prior to his election as pope as John XXIII, Archbishop Angelo Roncalli served as Apostolic Delegate in Turkey from 1933 to 1945. He's very well-remembered here; one Turkish politician called him "the first Turkish pope," and when he was beatified in 2000, the street in front of his residence was named in his honor. Benedict XVI has invoked John's memory at almost every turn.

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Reston, Va.: Hello,

How can the Roman Catholic Church seek to open any dialogue in the Middle East without first acknowledging it's role in the murders of innocent Muslims and Orthodox Christians in the last thousand years? It's incredibly inappropriate for the RC Church to cry peace and try to play the nice guy after all the people they've killed in the Middle East.

John L. Allen Jr.: You'd have to define what you mean by the "Catholic Church" in order to begin talking about this. It's certainly true that Catholics down through the centuries have spilled blood in the name of their faith -- but so have the Orthodox, the Muslims, the Jews, and any other group you'd care to name. (Even the Buddhists have shed blood in Sri Lanka in a bitter civil war against Hindu separatists). No one has a monopoly on villainy, and in any event, when it comes to peace I suppose "better late than never" has to be the operative philosophy.

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Logan Circle, D.C.: Does the Vatican really believe it is possible to reunite the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches? What is either side willing to compromise?

John L. Allen Jr.: Actually, both sides have already compromised a great deal. Read the joint statement of Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul VI from Dec. 7, 1965, which lifted the mutual excommunications of 1054. Yet they are still powerfully divided, above all over issues of papal authority. How long it might take to get past that obstacle is anyone's guess.

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John L. Allen Jr.: I'm afraid I have to sign off, as I still have to write something for my own newspaper tonight! Feel free to drop into http://ncrcafe.org/node/507 for my coverage of Pope Benedict's Turkey trip.

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