Marines Charged in Deaths of Iraqi Civilians

Two Dozen Killed in Town of Haditha Last Year

Washington Post staff writer Josh White was online Friday, Dec. 22, at 11 a.m. ET to discuss Thursday's announcement that four U.S. Marines were charged with multiple counts of murder of civilians in the Iraqi town of Haditha last year. In addition, the Marine Corps also charged four officers with crimes related to their alleged failure to investigate and report the Nov. 19, 2005, slayings.

4 Marines Charged In Haditha Killings ( Post, Dec. 22)

The transcript follows.

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Josh White: Hello, and welcome. I'm very much looking forward to your questions about the Haditha case.

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Hereford, UK: I am puzzled that lawful combat and unlawful killing should be described by Duigan as "a grey area". An action is either lawful or unlawful and there is more than a fine line between the two.

Josh White: This question embodies essentially what the Haditha case is all about. In war, and especially in active combat, there can be a very, very fine line between what is lawful and what is unlawful. One must remember that it is one part of a US servicemember's job to go out and kill people during war, something that obviously separates killing on the battlefield from what we understand about killing in civilian society. This case likely will come down to what the Marines thought they were encountering that day, and whether or not they properly responded to what they perceived as a threat. The evidence could show that the Marines acted appropriately but with unfortunate results; it could also show that they committed crimes.

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Arlington, Va.: How did they originally find out about this? Was there a videotape, or a whistleblower, or inconsistent reports that were red-flagged?

Josh White: Originally, what happened in Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005, was known to many people within the Marine battalion that worked in that area. The incident lasted almost an entire day and was one of several attacks in Haditha at that time. It is clear from what we have seen so far that the battalion commander was aware of what happened fairly quickly, but that he believed the civilian deaths were an unfortunate result of combat. But what the officers are charged with is not appropriately investigating the case and alerting higher headquarters. That would indicate that people higher up the chain of command didn't have a clear picture of what happened in its immediate aftermath. An initial press release was largely incorrect -- it stated that 15 people had been killed by the roadside bomb -- and it's unclear why the press release was incorrect. There was a videotape made the following day, by a local resident who also did some human rights work. That videotape led Time magazine to ask questions about the case last Spring, and the magazine's article brought the case to the public eye and also spurred the military investigations that have now led to charges.

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Chicago, Ill.: Are there charges against officers who may have covered up the killings? Is that a separate part of this investigation? I know I should just read your article!

Josh White: I agree, if you read the article you'll have a pretty clear answer to your question. But it does bring up a good point. The four enlisted Marines who are charged with crimes in this case all face murder charges, which carry potential life sentences in prison. The four officers who are charged with failing to thoroughly investigate and accurately report the incident are largely facing much lesser charges, such as violation of an order and dereliction. One lieutenant is facing additional charges for allegedly giving false statements and for obstructing justice. But the charges against the officers are almost entirely unrelated to the shootings that day; instead they are related to their lack of getting to the bottom of what happened. This could suggest a few things, but among them is that they could have believed these deaths were unfortunate but unavoidable and part of combat, or that they didn't want higher-ups to find out about it. I imagine that the military legal process and the evidence that will be presented will help us get to the bottom of that.

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Tucson, Ariz.: Nobody mentioned in the media, where Haditha exactly in Iraq lies, how great its population is, or if there were any witnesses to the event. Witnesses might be needed to a court procedure, locals and foreigners. Can you give me any additional information related?

Josh White: Haditha is a relatively small city in northwestern Iraq, along the Euphrates River about two thirds of the way from Baghdad to the Syrian border. I'm not exactly sure of the population, though a colleague tells me it's probably right around 100,000. There were some witnesses to the event, and we have quoted them in previous stories and summed up their viewpoints in today's story. It is true that some of these witnesses could be very important to any potential courts-martial, and that could be a difficult issue to deal with, as it's unclear if lawyers could get those witnesses to the United States, if they would be able to testify by telephone, or if they would be allowed to give written statements. It is obviously dangerous work to find those witnesses, but it is my understanding that NCIS has done that work.

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Azad, Calif.: Will they get the death penalty?

Josh White: As of right now, the death penalty is not an option that is on the table. The Marine Corps has charged the four Marines with unpremeditated murder, which carries with it a maximum sentence of life in prison.

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Alexandria, Va,: Can you elaborate on Rep. John Murtha's role in spurring the investigation?

Josh White: I don't know how much Rep. John Murtha actually spurred the investigation, but it is clear that his public comments earlier this year about the case after he received briefings gave it a boost in the public consciousness. Whether these Marines are guilty of crimes (and everyone should remember they are presumed innocent), this case has opened what could be an important discussion about the US military carries out the war in Iraq. This case, and others that have come up recently, caused US commanders in Iraq to reevaluate the military's stance on operating in urban areas. Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli asked his commanders to investigate all such cases carefully because they can certainly serve to push the Iraqi public into animosity against the United States, and the public trust in Iraq is vital to US operations and future security.

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Washington, D.C.: When will the case go to trial, and when it does will each of these eight men be tried separately? What kind of timeline is there until conviction or acquittal in the case? It seems like the kind of case that could go on for several years.

Josh White: We don't know when the case will go to courts-martial, if it does go to courts-martial, and it could take some time before it does. This is just the first stage of a comprehensive military justice process. Now that the Marines have been charged, they will get military legal representation, will get access to discoverable evidence in the case, and will be able to begin their own defense investigations. The next stage is what is known as an Article 32 hearing, where an investigating officer will hear evidence from both sides and will make recommendations to commanders about how the charges should proceed. Then, it will be up to commanders to decide if the cases then go to courts-martial, the equivalent of a civilian trial. The eight men could be tried separately, or there could be arrangements made for them to be tried together, if there are overlapping charges. As for how long this could all take? To give one example, there is still a lieutenant colonel from the Abu Ghraib abuse case (which happened in January 2004) who is charged with crimes but has yet to go to court-martial nearly three years later.

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Exeter, Pa.: Is there any member of the unit involved that day that has come forward and 'admitted' wrong doing or inappropriate use of force?

Josh White: At this point, I don't know. There is no one that I know of that has done so, and the defense lawyers I've been able to talk to have said their clients believe they used appropriate force for the threat they were facing. There is always the possibility that a Marine or Marines have come forward to suggest wrongdoing, and it's possible that plea deals could arise as the case moves forward, though I have no solid indication of any in the works right now.

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Washington, D.C.: So you are suggesting that there is a very real chance these Marines won't be convicted? I shudder to think what that message tells the Iraqis about how we value them. Is it true we pay the families $2500 for a "wrongful death?"

Josh White: You don't need me to suggest that there's a chance these Marines won't be convicted; it's simply how the military criminal justice and US criminal justice systems work. These Marines are innocent until proven guilty, and the fact that they are charged with crimes does not in any way indicate that they will be convicted of them. The defense attorneys in this case believe they have strong arguments that the Marines were doing their job that day; I'm sure investigators have built a case they believe indicates crimes were committed. Not to be flip, but this is why we have trials. It's a terribly unfortunate fact that in war, innocent civilians die. Estimates in Iraq go into the tens of thousands. It's something we shouldn't ignore, but it's also something that will happen in any conflict. There have been 64 US servicemembers charged in cases relating to the death of innocent civilians in Iraq since the beginning of the war; 18 of those servicemembers have served any jail time. Before a recent plea deal in the Mahmudiyah rape/murder case that got one soldier 90 years, the most serious sentence was 20 years for murder.

Josh White: Our excellent researcher, Julie Tate, tells me that there have been 21 total convictions out of the 64 charges against US servicemembers, 18 of whom have served some jail time.

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New York, N.Y.: Hi, do you agree with people as John Murtha and John Batiste that 'our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them'?

Josh White: Again, this is a central question of the case. The Marines have told their lawyers that they didn't overreact to anything and instead responded to the bomb and rifle fire they were facing. The defense lawyers said yesterday that the charges of unpremeditated murder suggest there is no indication of a "rampage," just that the Marines should have used more care in identifying targets before shooting. These young men have to make very difficult decisions in very short amounts of time, and the battlefield environment is constantly changing, sometimes in very violent ways. Is it possible they overreacted? Yes. Is it possible they followed their rules? Yes. Hopefully this will become clearer in the months ahead.

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Washington, D.C.: Just a comment, please. "The slayings of the civilians -- including women and children -- were an unfortunate result of the Marines' attack, they have argued."

Unfortunate result? Could they pick a more insensitive, brutally callous way of describing the murder of innocent civilians? I'm sure if someone came into the U.S. and killed your family in their sleepy little Fairfax homes, you might take some umbrage with calling that an "unfortunate result."

Between this and the vicious gang rape and murder of fourteen year old Abier Kassim Hamzah Rashid al Janabi (not to mention murdering her baby brother and parents to cover the crime) I simply have no words. Can you possibly blame Iraqis for hating us? I hate us too.

Josh White: The important thing to remember is that this is war, and as I've mentioned before, civilians will die when combat is taking place around them, almost without exception. Your example is one that I think people need to keep in mind, however. Certainly, if there were a foreign nation running extensive military operations around our hometowns, how would we feel if they either mistakenly or on purpose entered a suburban home and started killing people? The most difficult thing about the Iraqi battlefield, one I have seen with my own eyes, is that it is nearly impossible to distinguish between the enemy and the innocent. Insurgents use this to their advantage. I would be careful, however, when trying to compare the rape and murder in Mahmudiyah with the case in Haditha. In the Mahmudiyah case, at least one soldier has admitted planning and carrying out a vicious attack on an unsuspecting girl and her family with no relation to combat. The Marines in Haditha were facing combat, and the question is whether they went into those houses seeking to mitigate an enemy threat with appropriate tactics, or if they just blindly shot at people they should have known were civilians. It's a much more difficult question to answer.

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Josh White: Thank you for your thoughtful questions and for reading the Washington Post. Please look back for more coverage of this case as it moves forward.

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