Science: Music, Memory and Human Behavior

Washington Post science writer Shankar Vedantam, who also pens the Department of Human Behavior column, discussed the relationship between music and our memories on Monday, Jan. 22 at 1 p.m. ET. He also answered questions about his recent columns.

Read the stories here:Monday's Science Page: Same Old Song, but With a Different Meaning

Department of Human Behavior: How Deep a Distaste for Politicians Who Waffle?

A transcript follows.

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Shankar Vedantam: Welcome to the online science chat. I will be talking about two articles I wrote today. One is about the role that music appears to play in the brain, especially when it comes to eliciting memories from years past. The other article is my regular Monday column; today's piece explores how voters evaluate politicians who are inconsistent. (Hint: Consistency matters a lot less than you think.)

We have several questions already; keem them coming!

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Portland, Ore.: In his classic work 'The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat', neurologist Oliver Sacks describes case histories of two patients. At age 88, Mrs. O'C. had a vivid dream one night of her childhood in Ireland, especially the songs they danced to and sang. When she awoke, she continued to hear these songs playing in her head -- at deafening volume. This intrusive music continued for three months.

Sacks writes that Mrs. O'C. was suffering from a form of epilepsy: "...there was an overwhelming emotion associated with -Mrs. O'C.'s] seizures an an overwhelming (and profoundly nostalgic) content - an overwhelming sense of being-a-child again, in her long-forgotten home, in the arms and presence of her mother...In Mrs. O'C's case the nostalgic need was more chronic and profound, for her father died before she was born, and her mother before she was five. Orphaned, alone, she was sent to America, to live with a rather forbidding maiden aunt. Mrs. O'C. had no conscious memory of the first five years of her life -- no memory of her mother, of Ireland, of 'home'. She had always felt this as a keen and painful sadness -- this lack, or forgetting, of the earliest, most precious years of her life. She had often tried, but never succeeded, to recapture her lost and forgotten childhood memories. Now...she recaptured a crucial sense of her forgotten, lost childhood...It was, as she said, like the opening of a door - a door which had been stubbornly closed all her life." (pg. 142-143)

Cases such as Mrs. O'C. suggest that the brain retains an almost perfect ability to store life experiences, but research from decision psychology indicates that recall is quite a different matter. When we naively assume that our memories are perfect, we're only half right: storage works just fine, but retrieval is imperfect and influenced by any number of factors.

Shankar Vedantam: A wonderful note from a well-informed reader! Brain science indeed tells us that memory is only partly about storing information. The other part that is arguably as important is the retrieval of information. If either part of this mechanism is damaged, we will experience this as "forgetting," which means that we can sometimes "forget" things which are actually still stored in our brains!

My story today explores why music seems to be especially potent in helping people retrieve memories. Memories elicited by music also have a very powerful emotional component to it. One idea I heard as I reported the story offers a theory as to why this might be the case. McGill U's Robert Zatorre said that if you listen to a piece of music and it has a powerful emotional effect on you around the same time as something else is happening to you that is emotionally salient, the two things can become associated in the mind, so that hearing the music will also elicit the other memory, and the emotional experience that accompanied it.

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Shankar Vedantam: As we go along, one of the things that will be fun to do would be to have people post examples of music that bring to mind experiences from long, long ago. Tell us what songs bring you to tears or belly-laughs -- and the memories that accompany those tunes.

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Washington, D.C.: I know that the music I listened to between ages 15-21 holds more meaning for me than anything I've heard since, even though I've heard some very interesting things. I understand studies have shown the mind during adolescence is more suited to store meaning toward music. What does science know about this?

Shankar Vedantam: This has been my personal experience as well, but I do not know what science has been done to answer this question. Since I am a science writer and not a scientist (and therefore at liberty to speculate in the absence of data!) I wonder whether it might have to do with the fact that late adolescence is a period of heightened emotions. A lot of "firsts" happen to us in this period, we are finding our way in the world with all its sorrow and excitement. I also know I listened to a lot more music and was much more open to hearing different kinds of music at that age ... It seems like there could be connections there that explain why music we hear at that age stays with us, and invokes powerful memories of experiences years down the road ... (Of course, as soon as I post this, we are doubtless going to hear from readers who say the most emotionally salient music they ever heard was in their 40s, 50s and beyond!)

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Washington, D.C.: Why wasn't the cerebellum, the "little brain" included in the conversation. My understanding is that the cerebellum is another major place for musical memory storage.

Shankar Vedantam: I ran your question by McGill U's Robert Zatorre. Here is his prompt response ...

Indeed, in our study (Blood & Zatorre, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2001) we did see strong, bilateral cerebellar activity during the "chills" episodes. There is good reason to believe the cerebellum may be involved in emotion, from several different sources (for example, research by Jeremy Schmammann in Boston). However, its precise role remains far from certain, and in the particular circumstance we studied, we have no way of knowing for sure whether we saw cerebellar activity because of the emotion per se, or because of the motoric aspects of shivers, or even due to general arousal. So the answer is the scientist's eternal response: "more research!" But I think we're making progress at least on recognizing the importance of the cerebellum to many different cognitive and emotional processes.

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Vienna, Va.: Wilson Pickett's In the Midnight Hour makes me 14 again at a dance club popular in the area where I grew up.

Shankar Vedantam: Our first volunteer!

Come on now, speak up y'all ...

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Silver Spring, Md.: Many public school systems have reduced or eliminated music education to concentrate on those subjects for which the No Child Left Behind Act requires them to measure student achievement. Given the ancient and integral relationship between music and memories, what are the academic and societal implications of this trend?

Shankar Vedantam: I think we end up on thin ice when we use this research to make public policy. There is some research showing that music helps build and consolidate memories, but also other research that has failed to find an association. Should schools be giving up math time to get students to listen to music? Wiser minds than mine would have to tackle that question. But separate from music's implications for academic progress, it certainly does seem to be a central aspect of all human culture. In many ancient societies, music was indistinguishable from learning -- in that song was the way knowledge was transmitted from one generation to the next!

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Reston, Va.: When I hear "When the Saints go Marching in" it brings back vivid memories of college days in the 50s the locations and the people that I shared that happy music with. Otherwise I never reflect on the places or the people.

Shankar Vedantam: Thank you for sharing!

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Music Memories: I have an odd one. I grew up in Buffalo and was in college during the Attica Riots. I was listening to Rod Stewart's "Maggie May" on the radio when a news bulletin broke in with the announcement that the siege had ended with many deaths.

I can't hear Maggie May without thinking of Attica.

Shankar Vedantam: What an interesting association!

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Ocean Pines, Md.: I am a lifelong singer, my father and my grandfather were musicians, my son and nephew are folk and rock singers, so it's in the family. My father, on his deathbed at 95, began moaning, then it became a long melodic tone, and then he expired. I am convinced a very deep part of his brain sang a farewell on the way out. The memory of it brings tears. I take it as indication of the primordial locus of music in our psyche.

Shankar Vedantam: Great story. Thanks for sharing.

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Falls Church, Va.: Is there anything to the ever-popular Baby Einstein DVDs (and others) from a scientific standpoint? Does playing classical music in conjunction with phrases, colors, letters, etc. really help retention?

Shankar Vedantam: I think there has been some work showing the benefits of music on other cognitive skills, but in all fairness there have also been studies that have found no association. My personal take on this is that people ought to share music with their children that they enjoy -- and not turn music into a new kind of homework!

Harvard neuroscientist Mark Tramo directed me to this page which has a lot of links to published research on music and the brain. Enjoy!

http://www.brainmusic.org/AuditoryNeuroscienceFolder/AudNeurosciMainPage.html

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Washington, D.C.: I am a composer of piano music. My best music--acording to me, and to my listeners-- is the music that arises in me from the melodies and rhythms I heard as a kid. Often my finsihed product elicits unrelated images or emotional memories of the listener.

Shankar Vedantam: Another vote for "the best music I heard was when I was young" camp!

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Rochester, N.Y.: I'm not a veteran, but I realized the other day that I associate a Mozart piece (I don't know it's name) with an episode of MASH, when Winchester teaches some Chinese POW musicians to play. The musicians are subsequently killed in shelling, and Winchester says that the piece will always remind him of the cost of war.

Shankar Vedantam: Thanks for sharing ...

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Mount Airy, Md.: In my work as a music therapist with older adults, I found that people who could no longer speak due to a stroke still retained the ability to sing words to familiar songs. Your research would seem to explain that.

Shankar Vedantam: I have seen research on this topic. It is fascinating, in that it shows how our ability to retrieve memories is so central to memory itself. And isn't it interesting that adding a tune or a beat or a rhyme to words can make the words so much easier to remember?

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Foggy Bottom, D.C.: Years ago, while driving home very late at night from a party at which I hadn't had anything more than soda, I had what can only be termed a hallucination triggered by the song playing on the radio. As I was driving down a very small country road, the song came on and triggered an almost violent series of images appearing before me. The images were like a filmstrip being spun quickly and were beautiful. I pulled over (on the wrong side of the road, good thing it was very late), and waited for the experience to pass. I didn't learn the name of the song till later that year "Pure" by the Lightning Seeds. I did however, have lower intensity repitions of the hallucinatory experience the next two times I heard the song, before finally finding out the name.

Romantic friends have suggested I saw visions of my future. I wish. To this day I still can't explain what happened. Have you heard of this?

Shankar Vedantam: We may have to call Dr Oliver Sacks in on this one! (Glad you didn't get hurt ... )

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Washington, D.C.: About 20 years ago I discovered a book by the psychologist Theodor Reik titled "The Haunting Melody" originally published in 1953. The book explores the many instances during patient sessions where music played an important, if puzzling role in psychotherapy. As a student of Jung, Reik's approach and understanding are based more on Jungian inquiry than on advances in neuroscience, but the book remains a fascinating read.

Shankar Vedantam: Thanks for the suggestion ... can others recommend interesting books related to music? Vikram Seth's novel, An Equal Music, is one book that communicates the effect that music has on us.

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Vienna, VA: As a mom of a teen who is struggling emotionally and now attends an "emotional growth boarding school" it was interesting to me to learn that her school does not allow popular music (they do have a chorus) and when you visit your child, they ask that you not have music. Their feeling is that music is a trigger and for all the kids they have, they can't know which music will trigger what emotions so they just don't allow it.

Shankar Vedantam: hard for me to comment about the policies at this particular school ... however, it is certainly true that music can have very powerful effects on people. Armies down history have often used music as a way to get troops ready for battle. One ought to be careful, of course, about throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and eliminating entire genres of music. There is at least as much work showing the salutory effects of music.

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Alexandria, Va.: As my High School Graduation ceremony was breaking up in the parking lot, someone turned on a radio and we all sang along to Sly Stone's "Dance to the Music".

Shankar Vedantam: Thanks for the memory!

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Springfield, Va.: I think that the significance of the "music I heard when I was young" has to do more with how important and central the music was to teenage and young adult experience, rather than how "good" it was relative to music heard or learned at a younger or older age. Speaking as someone in my 50's with a life-long interest in music, and a continuing (amateur)singer, I love music I learned throughout my life. But during those teenage years until about 24 or 25, music seemed central to my life in a way it hasn't before or since. I listened with my friends, alone, went to concerts, sang to my own guitar--whatever--but it was as necessary to my life than as eating or sleeping. It almost seems that the music somehow helped me to experience and process what was happening in my life. Anyone else have that sense?

Shankar Vedantam: Thanks for the note! Comments, anyone?

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Tenleytown, D.C.: Here are the songs hard-wired into my brain:

Tracks of my Tears - Smokey Robinson and the Miracles; puberty and Smokey went hand in hand.

White Room - by Cream. First heard at about 7:30 am on the radio. It was an electrifying moment. I had never heard anything like it before, and it reshaped my musical tastes forever.

Thunder Road - Bruce Springsteen. Just out of college & working in Jersey; lonely for companionship; could not get this song out of my mind.

Return of the Grievous Angel - Gram Parsons & Emmy Lou Harris. Achingly beautiful - this song literally changed the direction of my musical tastes once again.

I Came to Believe - Johnny Cash. I defy anyone to listen to American V: A Hundred Highways, without crying at Cash's last will and testament.

Shankar Vedantam: Thanks for sharing.

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Philadelphia, Pa.: what do you think it means when you "can't get a song out of your head"?

Shankar Vedantam: take a look at the next comment ... it might be an answer to this question.

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Arlington, Va.: My two cents is catchiness is more important than quality. That's why "hooks" in music are so important to its success. When I was a teenager (early 70's) there was a dopey (but catchy)song that got played on the radio a lot, the name was something like My Belle Ami. Since Walt Bellamy was one of the key players on the NBA team my friends and I rooted for, we jokingly called the song "My Bellamy." Over the weekend, I was watching a game and one of the players was named Bellamy. Immediately the song came into my head and has been jingling around ever since.

Shankar Vedantam: ... why you can't get some tunes out of your head?

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Champaign, Ill.: Lately I've had a compulsion to collect all the available versions of a song that I like. For example "Hey Joe" or "Knocking on Heaven's Door"

Do you know how common that compulsive behavior is?

Shankar Vedantam: I have no idea how common this is. I know that I often get personally attached to a particular rendition of a song, and feel intensely loyal to that version and that version alone!

(also, one person's "compulsion" is another person's "hobby" ...)

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Guaymas, Mexico: I got one of the satellite radios a while back so that I could listen to my favorite music which happens to be the 60s. My wife noticed that when ever I returned from a driving trip, I would go through nights of violent dreams about Vietnam. Once she brought this to my attention, I started keeping track and there was a very clear cause and effect. I had always thought that smells brought memories of that place back, but it's the music.

As I listen now, I often wonder if I am seeing my life play out in front of me like some think happens when you die--only in slow motion.

Shankar Vedantam: Thanks for sharing.

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N.J.: Hi,

I was wondering if any research has been done for the effects of CARNATIC MUSIC on the brain.

Shankar Vedantam: as someone who has long been an admirer of south indian classical music, I know it has had an effect on my brain! I know others who have been similarly affected, but the plural of anecdote is not data!

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Vero Beach, Fla.: The notion that humans sang before they talked has been around a long time (perhaps supported by a famous Neandertal flute, made from a bear bone). I figure it's no wonder European Christianity almost always was big on music, from Slavic chants to Bach to Southern Harmony, to name only a few. I wonder at the ditching of heritage music in a large segment of US churches.

Shankar Vedantam: Thanks for the note.

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Reston, Va.: A fair amount of research has been done on HOW major, minor, and dissonant chords and phrases are perceived by different parts of the brain and on the affect that memory has on how they are perceived, but I haven't seen anything that discusses WHY the brain reacts differently to them. Have you come across any studies that have been done on this aspect?

Shankar Vedantam: I ran this question by Mark Jude Tramo at Harvard, one of the scientists quoted in the story today. Here is his prompt answer.

"Why" questions are difficult to answer for empiricists, because the hypotheses they raise are almost always untestable using experimental methods. If you will allow me to speculate (i.e., put on my rationalist's hat): First, consonant chords and dissonant chords have different ACOUSTIC features in both the spectral domain and the time domain, and NEURAL SYSTEMSin humans and other animals ARE SENSITIVE to the features that distinguish consonant from dissonant sounds. Second, the way MEANING gets attached to different stimulus features, like those distinguishing consonant from dissonant chords, or major from minor ones, or red lights from green lights, for that matter, is determined by the CULTURE'S system of referential meaning rather than, or in addition to, ACOUSTICS and NEUROBIOLOGY. But music presents an interesting challenge: every culture sings its song repertoire with men and women singing at octaves. Why doesnt a single culture have men and women singing songs with a high density of minor seconds?

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Alexandria, Va.: When my grandfather was dying of Alzheimer's disease and didn't know his family, he responded to opera.

La Boheme always makes me think of him, and the time of his death.

For me there are strong associations with "grunge" music and my carefree college years. I can't hear Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit without feeling like I'm 18 again.

Shankar Vedantam: I am running out of time, so I will post several remaining notes from readers without too much comment ...

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Pittsburgh, Pa.: Anything on the Top 40 during the summer that my (future) husband and I fell in love still brings back warm, fuzzy feelings decades later.

In the realm of classical music, I was very active in orchestra, band and chamber music activities from elementary school through college, so anything I actually played or studied in a music course evokes strong feelings -- e.g., the 2nd movement (funeral dirge) of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony ("Eroica") that was aired relentlessly when JFK was assassinated, a theme in the 4th movement of Brahms's 1st symphony which was the themesong of a classical music program I listened to on the radio as a teenager, or snippets of Vivalid's' "4 Seasons" used in commercials.

Also, you'll be pleased to know, "The Washington Post March"!!! When we lived in the DC area in the 1970s, every time your commercial came on TV with a calliope (or something that sounded like one) playing the opening, it brought back memories of my youth in band.

Shankar Vedantam: another one ...

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Shankar Vedantam: One other idea I would like to toss out. An interesting thing that happens with music is that songs affect us so intensely that we often have the urge to share them with others. Of course, what is emotionally salient for me won't necessarily be salient for you -- as Tramo says in my story today, music has long been central to building group identity, which is why you would expect to see different musical canons in different cultures. In some ways, this can lead to an aspect of music that is divisive -- the songs we love are so powerful to us that at a certain level we want everyone else to find them powerful as well.

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Athens, Ga.: From time to time in composing, I have the experience of an almost completely developed piece appearing without much work from me, almost as if it has been in my memory waiting to be released, even though it also sounds brand new. Might the "transpersonal human memory" be operating here?

Shankar Vedantam: not sure what the transpersonal memory is, but thought I would put the note out there ...

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Fairfax, Va.: The power of music and the subconscious: I have a niece who was hospitalized for a couple of months with a heart defect at around 3 weeks of age. Her parents would sing lullabies to her during this period. She recovered and all is well; however, her mother recently reported to me that at age 6, she would become teary-eyed at school whenever the kids sang any of the lullabies that they had sung to her when she was hospitalized for the heart defect.

Shankar Vedantam: Thanks for the note

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Hanover, Pa.: Greetings Shankar Vedantam. I very much enjoy and grow in understanding through your work, for first of all I wish to thank you, and pray for many Blessings upon you.

I sense that love is pure energy that can be translated through sound. That sound in turn is translated directly and indirectly through all pathways that define our selves. It either resonates with our being, or it does not. Being not static, we can learn to appreciate any artistically rendered music and through time better appreciate the life experiences, and love it seeks to convey. Is that fair to say? Thank you.

Shankar Vedantam: How could I not post such a flattering note? Thanks so much ...

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Silver Spring, Md.: Have you done any studies on the affect that different tones themselve have on humans and their emotions?

I don't mean chalk on a blackboard. But like the way a flat maj7 or sus4 chord resolves to a root tone, things like that.

I always admired certain musicians for their note selection, is there something about the way certain tones effect us?

Shankar Vedantam: I think Tramo tried to get at some part of this question earlier, but let me post it to spur future thought ...

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Shankar Vedantam: That's all we have time for. Thanks for all the wonderful questions, comments and memories. Take a moment today to enjoy your favorite tunes -- and all the memories they evoke!

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