No Child Left Behind

Post education reporter Amit Paley was online Friday, March 16 at 11 a.m. to take your questions about the brewing battle in Congress over the renewal of the No Child Left Behind Act.

A transcript follows.

____________________

Amit Paley: The battle over No Child Left Behind, the Bush administration's signature domestic achievement, is heating up with a Republican rebellion that broke into the open this week. I'm here to take questions about the political battle and its implications for parents, children and schools dealing with the effects of this landmark law.

_______________________

Annapolis, Md.: Do these lawmakers actually believe that a child with a 70 IQ and one with an IQ of 130 are going to learn at the same rate, and achieve the same levels? It's time to face the reality that not everyone was meant to go to college. The world needs skilled labor, and the more we try to force mechanically talented children to become verbally or mathematically inclined, the more of a disservice we do to them and our country. We need to reinstate vocational and technical schools to give those who are not college-bound the skills to be successful. Just because our president was able to buy himself a diploma does not mean that everyone has that ability.

Amit Paley: Almost no one believes that the central goal of the law -- to have 100 percent of children read and do math on grade level by 2014 -- is achievable. Even architects of the law like Sen. Edward Kennedy admit that the goal is more aspirational than realistic. But supporters say it is important to set high goals to get the nation working to improve schools and that the standard has changed the national debate to focus attention on all children, particularly poor and minority students.

And then there is the political challenge of trying to lower that standard. How do you respond when your opponent says: So which children do you want to leave behind?

_______________________

D.C.: How much of this statement is true? Teachers don't like No Child Left Behind because it actually puts standards on them to make sure they are good teachers and have their students do well? I mean, for years teachers have been getting more and more for working less and less while not being held to any standards.

Why shouldn't teachers be held accountable for their students? I say this by mentioning that both of my parents are now-retired teachers.

Amit Paley: Under the current law, teachers aren't formally penalized if their children do poorly on tests. But there is tremendous pressure on teachers from principals and superintendents to show results.

Of all the proposals to change the current law, perhaps the most contentious is one introduced by an Aspen Institute Commission that would essentially force out teachers if their students fail to show improvement on standardized tests for several years in a row.

The teachers unions -- who yield incredible influence in all educational policy debates on Capitol Hill -- are obviously strongly opposed to any proposal like that. So it doesn't appear likely to survive in Congress.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: What is your sense of where Republicans stand on the issue of NCLB at this time? Since its inception, Republicans have tended to be very loyal to the President and supportive of his law, but I was wondering if any of that has changed now that the President is less popular and now that the controversial law has been in effect for more than 4 years -- ample time for its weaknesses and flaws to be apparent. Thanks!

Amit Paley: Republican opposition to the law is definitely increasing. Just this week, 57 GOP lawmakers -- including the No. 2 Republican in the House and the national party chairman -- signed onto a bill that would undercut the proposal.

It's clear at this point that there will be considerably more Republican opposition to No Child Left Behind than there was five years ago. The president's basement-low approval ratings are definitely a factor -- remember that this law was passed in 2001 in Congress right after the Sept. 11 attacks when Bush was much more popular.

_______________________

D.C.: In the five years since No Child Left Behind was enacted, I've heard USED officers and other supporters of the law say that it's unlikely that we'll ever get to 100 percent proficiency but that it's better to have such a goal.

Why did you decided to focus on that issue?

PS - one minor quibble with your first story. Singapore is NOT a homogeneous country. That's a misconception too common in the US. Google polyglot Singapore and you'll find it's a common adjective describing the island nation with four official languages.

Amit Paley: In interviews with U.S. Department of Education officials, none of them would publicly say that the 100 percent proficiency goal in unlikely to be reached. The administration's official position is that the goal is challenging, but that it can be reached with increased effort from schools and states and improvements to the law.

I focused on the issue because it is the central goal of the law, which is, after all, named No Child Left Behind (i.e. 100 percent of the children should be proficient).

But the debate isn't just theoretical -- it has incredible consequences since that goal is the basis for the entire system of yearly progress that schools are required to make. Schools that fail to meet those benchmarks face sanctions that could cost millions of dollars and result in school takeovers.

(And I take your point that Singapore is not completely homogeneous, though the story just said it was relatively more homogeneous than the U.S.)

_______________________

Gaithersburg, Md.: What is the real likelihood that changes to NCLB will be made? Is the government finally coming to the realization that it's an unreasonable mandate?

Amit Paley: There is almost no doubt that there will be changes made to No Child Left Behind -- the question is how sweeping they will be. And also up for debate is whether the law will be renewed this year or be caught up in the already underway 2008 presidential race.

You have proposals like the one introduced by Republicans critics this week -- which would hugely undercut the law -- versus some supporters who only want to make minor changes.

But the mood in Congress, at least right now, is that No Child Left Behind, in some form, is here to stay.

_______________________

D.C.: State legislatures across the country have been active at trying to change the law and there are also several cases in court over NCLB. How do you see Senators and Reps responding to the mounting pressure in their districts?

Amit Paley: Anger from parents and schools is one of the main reasons some lawmakers have turned against the law.

Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-Michigan), a leading critic of No Child Left Behind, likes to say that the more congressmen get out of Washington and talk to their constituents, the more likely they are to oppose NCLB.

The flip side, of course, is that many parents and teachers -- particularly in urban school districts -- do like the law and feel like it is focusing attention on the major achievement gaps between white and poor students in this country.

_______________________

Harrisburg, Pa.: I am not an education expert. Yet, I have asked this question on several education forums, and I have been amazed at the positive responses it has received, as if I am suggesting something so simple people are amazed they did not think of it first. I have also been told there are some schools that do this and find it works. Here is my simple solution to some of the problems of education:

Keep all students in home room according to age, i.e. everyone the same age is in the appropriate grade level, i.e first grade, second grade, third grade, etc. All basic courses are offered at the same time, i.e. all grade levels of English, Math, and Science courses all offered concurrently. Students go to the grade level in each course that is appropriate to them. Some students learn subjects at different rates, and may even excel at one subject while being delayed in learning at another. Thus, a 3rd grade student may be in 3rd grade English, 4th grade Math, and 2nd grade Science.

This recognizes that children learn different subjects at different rates. This has the benefits of lowering stigmatizing students for not being in their proper grade level, at least in home room. It avoids the problems of failing or promoting a student in all subjects, which is what many schools do: i.e. a student who fails 4th grade repeats all courses in 4th grade the following year, What it avoids is failing a student who may become bored repeating the subjects where the student excelled. It also allows a student who does well in a subject to move at a more appropriate faster pace.

Does this make sense to you and, if so, what do I need to do to get this idea better publicized?

Amit Paley: Interesting idea. Let's see what others think.

_______________________

Collinsville, Va.: How can the federal government mandate equivalent academic performance standards nationwide and still maintain that it does not have responsibility for school district financial inequities?

Amit Paley: The federal government only pays for about nine percent of education spending in the country -- so the major burden is on the states and school districts.

But the disconnect you point to is one of the major criticisms of the law.

_______________________

Falls Church, Va.: I don't think the rebellion has as much to do with the 33% approval rating - rather the fact that the constituents are taking to the streets and expressing their hatred for the law! Democracy in action!

And I think it is really unfair to say that teachers get more and more while doing less and less these days. They are dealing with children who increasingly have less parental guidance, larger classes, little pay and bureaucrats butting their noses in their curriculum.

Amit Paley: We're getting mostly anti-NCLB voices. Anyone reading who wants to write supporting the law?

_______________________

Russell, Kan. : Do members of Congress really feel that there is going to be any way, at all, that students can accomplish 100 percent efficiency by 2014? If they don't, then what do they really feel they can do about it?

Amit Paley: Most don't feel the goal is realistic, but still support it as a goal to work towards and also because they could be politically slammed for suggesting that some children should be left behind. One lawmaker told me it would be "un-American" to set a goal lower than 100 percent.

_______________________

San Diego: NCLB is a sanctions-based law. Is there any chance that its reauthorization will recognize the importance of rewards for good performance at the school, district and state levels?

Amit Paley: The main goal of the law is to address the lowest-performing schools -- the federal government doesn't think it needs to focus as much attention on the ones that already work well. That's why a lot of the opposition to the law comes from well-off suburbs and some of the strongest support comes from poor school districts.

_______________________

Downtown D.C.: My biggest concern isn't that Congress reauthorizes NCLB; it's that they won't. Other than the Administration and their 99.44 percent pure estimates, both supporters and critics of the law say that changes need to be made. There are difference in the degree and nature of the overhaul, but all agree changes are needed. But if Congress doesn't get it done this year, I fear we'll be stuck with the existing law AS IS for some time (at least until 2010).

Amit Paley: If Congress doesn't get the law renewed by this fall, then it seems unlikely that it will get done at all before 2009 when we have a new president. And who knows what his (or her) priorities will be?

But Congressional Democrats are working incredibly hard to get the bill marked up by this summer and the Bush administration is also lobbying hard to get this done. No Child Left Behind is, after all, their signature domestic achievement and they don't want to see it get stymied.

_______________________

Springfield, Va.: I must quickly say that a previous comment was way out of line saying that teachers keep getting more and more but work less. My wife works multiple hours EVERY weeknight grading students' work and preparing lesson plans. She also spends a majority of Sunday evenings doing the same. Do the rest of us have to do that? Most likely not.

Anyway, she has a class where more than 60 percent of the students do not speak English as a first language, and most of those parents do not speak English at all. Therefore, she gets virtually no support at home from the family. These children appear to be trying their best, but since their thought process usually works by translating what the teacher is saying into their native language, they are always a step or two behind. Her test scores are the lowest of her grade, but she has by far the largest percentage of students that did not grow up with English as the first language. Yet, administration at the school does not take this into account and holds her to a higher set of standards when it comes to the content of the lessons she teaches the students each work (which leads to more preparation at home during her "off-time").

It's only because the school administration is so driven by the "numbers" that they are supposed to achieve that they forget about the actual children involved and turn into slave drivers against their own staff. Something definitely is not right with this plan.

Amit Paley: Another defense of teachers

_______________________

D.C.: Yes, I will support the law. Teachers salaries continue to rise, while they only work 9 months year and work less hours per-week than most private sector employees.

If they are complaining about NCLB, it is because it actually wants to hold them accountable. The NEA and the other teachers unions will do anything to say it isn't our fault, its the parents' fault. The parents say it is the teachers fault, so who looses? THE KIDS.

Obviously, 100 percent isn't possible....but you have got to have lofty goals if for nothing else than the kids.

Amit Paley: Here's a defender of No Child Left Behind, tapping into a common refrain among some politicians and others that the teachers unions are the major roadblock to educational reform. Ask teachers, of course, and they'll say that the unions are the only groups making sure public education doesn't collapse.

_______________________

Arlington, Va.: Do the members of congress and staff you interview have a common picture of what 100 percent of students will know or be able to do?

Amit Paley: No. And in fact, the law allows states to define their own curriculum and tests. A student who is proficient on a state test in Mississippi, for instance, might flunk the test in Massachusetts.

_______________________

New York City: What do you think about the "business" behind NCLB? In particular, IBM's contract with NYC to create an answer to NCLB through an $80 million computer system.

Amit Paley: There's no question that the business of education is booming --with the standardized testing mandates of No Child Left Behind and the tutoring companies used under provisions of the law.

_______________________

Mauldin, S.C.: Why do you harp on NCLB as being a "Bush bill", when it was authored by Teddy Kennedy, sponsored by Liebermann, and is a clone of bills that Democrats have been trying to push through Congress since LBJ?

Amit Paley: This is definitely a bipartisan bill, which is being shepherded and defended in Congress by Kennedy and his House counterpart, George Miller.

But although it has bipartisan support, it is still President Bush's law. He proposed it, he named it and he pushed it through a Republican-controlled Congress that had serious ideological concerns about expanding the role of the federal government.

_______________________

"Strongest support comes from poorest districts": Among parents, who in more affluent districts are more educated about what's going on in their schools, but not among teachers. I am an education writer who has been writing about these issues for a decade. Among educators, opposition to the law is strongest at the poorest schools, because they are under the greatest pressure and have been forced by higher-ups to make the most reforms, reforms they don't necessarily think are in the best interest of children. NCLB hasn't changed the daily operations of more affluent schools nearly as much as it has the low-income ones.

Amit Paley: A good point.

_______________________

Quiet partial support for NCLB: Before I get stoned for adding a voice of support, I'd like to at least point out the basic premise for NCLB that has gotten lost.

Teaching practices, teaching skill, school administrative competence and expertise and student achievement should be assessed -- how else will we know what is working in our schools -- and the assessment used to point out the areas that are not working and where extra support, training, what have you will be needed to make improvements. End of story.

No one should be fired, pressured, squeezed or otherwise discriminated based on test scores. That's where things have gone so wrong.

Amit Paley: Another (qualified) supporter.

_______________________

Fairfax, Va.: Don't you think it would be one thing if folks were complaining because they had 80-90 percent of their kids at grade level (which is different from expecting all kids to learn at the same rate), and is having difficulty reaching 100%, rather than the much lower rates you see around the country? If you don't like the pressure, set the goal up as the boogeyman that should invalidate the entire law.

Also, it is important to keep in the mind the the statute itself contemplates less than 100 percent proficiency. Only 95 percent have to participate for AYP, and a certain percentage of students with disabilities can be measured against a different standard of proficiency. Also, with "safe harbor" a school can keep making AYP and not be at 100 percent in 2014.

Amit Paley: Another good point. A lot of people say -- well, 100 percent proficiency might not be possible, but let's talk about that when we're at 70 or 80 percent (versus the current situation, which is down around 30 percent on NAEP, a national test administered by the US Dept. of Education.)

And Fairfax also raises a couple of the loopholes -- and there are others.

_______________________

Palm Beach, Fla.: Seems like the government loves relying on standardized tests. So, how much education money goes to the test makers, and how many major test makers are there? Do the test makers heavily influence education policy?

Thanks!

Amit Paley: I don't have exact numbers on this at the moment -- but this is obviously a huge industry. Supporters of testing -- a movement that began more than a decade before No Child Left Behind -- say that there is no other way to measure how well kids are doing.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: Did you hear much about the media crafting some of the negative perception around the law? NCLB does not use the term failing school, yet it is the stigma of being humiliated that I hear teachers complain about, particularly in the paper and on local news.

Amit Paley: The law doesn't use the term failing school, it uses a host of other terms that wouldn't make much sense to an average reader. But when a school fails to meet required benchmarks, I think it is fair to say that it has failed to do so, even if the law uses other technical terms.

I'm not sure how much of the negativity is based on media coverage. I think a lot of it comes from teachers who pass on their discontent to parents and friends and relatives.

_______________________

District of Columbia: I think you were right on with your comment that the loudest critics of the law are the suburban schools that have never been publicly accountable before. While flawed and in need of repair (through growth models), the accountability system of NCLB does not allow schools to mask the low achievement of any students by only reporting the average performance of the entire school. If ANY school is having trouble with ANY of its students - minority, disabled, non-English speakers, etc. - that school should be identified, whether they are rural, urban, or suburban.

Amit Paley: Almost everyone agrees that this is one of the most important contributions of the law: to allow parents and the public to finally see how all students are performing.

It has shone sunlight onto a dark corner of our education system: the yawning achievement gap between white and minority students that nearly everyone agrees is unacceptable.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: Two problems that seem to be important with No Child Left Behind. The problem of No Child gets ahead either. Schools and teachers are pressured to focus their energy on students at risk of not passing the test, abandoning programs to teach advanced students more challenging material because they will pass the test anyway. The second is dumbing down tests so states can put up better numbers. It is self evident that is the core strategy that some states have taken. In order for these tests to mean something they need to be nationally normed. I think this program has had some positive impact, but not as much as it supporters would like to claim.

Amit Paley: Another interesting comment before we run out of time

_______________________

D.C.: Is there any evidence that proves that NCLB has had a positive impact on student performance? I remember that the gap between reading scores for 9-year-olds had narrowed slightly in the last year or two, but are there any other measures that show what effect (positive or negative) that NCLB has had on schools?

Amit Paley: It's hard to tell. There are test scores that show improvements for some grades in some subjects, but other results show minimal to no improvement. It will probably take a few more years before we have enough data to definitively say how things have worked.

_______________________

Amit Paley: Well, we're out of time. Thanks for joining us!

_______________________

Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions. washingtonpost.com is not responsible for any content posted by third parties.