Steve Vogel
Washington Post Metro Reporter
Wednesday, June 13, 2007; 10:00 AM

Washington Post metro reporter Steve Vogel was online Wednesday, June 13 at 10 a.m. ET to discuss his new book, " The Pentagon: A History," about "the untold story of the wartime race to build The Pentagon -- and to restore it 60 years later."

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The transcript follows.

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Steve Vogel: Hello everyone. Thanks for joining us for this discussion of "The Pentagon: A History," which was published yesterday by Random House. I'm looking forward to your questions about this building's remarkable history, from its creation during World War II through the present day.

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Silver Spring, Md.: After 9/11, I read claims that the 2001 attack on the Pentagon came 60 years to the day of groundbreaking for the building. However, I have not seen this validated in any historical book. Your book excerpt ends on Sept 2, 1941, with President Roosevelt approving the design. Was the groundbreaking on Sept 11?

Steve Vogel: Ironically enough, it's true that groundbreaking for the Pentagon took place on Sept. 11, 1941. During my research, I found documents that confirmed this -- steam shovels began excavating the site that day. In a radio address the night of Sept 11, President Franklin Roosevelt warned of the Nazi threat and said: "When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not wait until he has struck."

The pile driving began the next day in Arlington.

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Ellicott City, Md.: Why is our nation's military headquarters shaped like a gigantic bulls-eye?

Steve Vogel: That question was posed even before the Pentagon was built. In a last ditch effort to change the pentagonal shape, members of the Fine Arts Commission approached FDR a week before groundbreaking and warned that the shape would make the building the biggest target in the world. Roosevelt waved them off and told them he liked that pentagonal shape: "I like it because nothing like it has ever been done that way before."

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Alexandria, Va.: How do you think the American effort in World War II would have changed if the Pentagon had never been built? Would the scattered nature of the various War department buildings have hindered the U.S. effort, to the degree that it would have altered the outcome of the war?

Steve Vogel: There's no question that the Pentagon brought efficiency and streamlined command that would have been impossible without it. The War Department had been scattered in 17 different buildings on the eve of the war, with key officers and departments all over the place. Bringing them together saved lives. That said, the Navy's decision to stay out because it wanted more space was unfortunate. An opportunity for better unity of command was lost.

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Herndon, Va.: Hi Steve, I'm really enjoying your book. Where did you get the idea to write about the Pentagon?

Steve Vogel: Thanks very much. I wrote a story about the Pentagon's history back in 1999 as part of The Washington Post's coverage of critical events in 20th century Washington. I was amazed by what I found: the audacity of the concept, the huge controversy that followed, the rush to build before they even had plans, the incredible speed with which it was built, and most of all, the larger-than-life characters who built the Pentagon. That story stuck with me, and when I covered the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11 and its subsequent quick rebuilding, I was struck by the parallels and thought it was time somebody told the full story.

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Washington, D.C.: I heard years ago that the Pentagon originally was going to be a hospital (mostly hallways and ramps for gurneys, etc). Is this true?

Steve Vogel: Thanks for the question. That's actually a myth -- and a quite common one. The ramps actually were used to save on the steel that staircases and elevators would have required, and that was needed for weapons and battleships. Plus, the ramps allowed vehicles to move from floor to floor. There were suggestions later in the war -- when many people couldn't imagine that the military would need such a large facility in peacetime -- that it be converted to a hospital. Roosevelt wanted it converted to an archives! That, of course, never happened. The Army wasn't going to give the Pentagon up.

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Charleston, S.C.: Given the haste with which the Pentagon was constructed, one would expect there were some shortcuts taken, and that it might not age too well. During the post-9/11 repairs were any flaws noted to suggest the building might be deteriorating (leaky roof, leaking water pipes, crumbling concrete, etc.)?

Steve Vogel: You're right. There were a lot of shortcuts taken. The Pentagon was built so quickly -- the first employees moved in seven months after groundbreaking, and the whole thing was finished in 17 months -- that they were inevitable. Flaws started showing up well before 9/11, as the book recounts, and the building was deteriorating badly. In fact on the eve of the first Gulf War, a major flood in the Pentagon basement nearly put much of the building out of commission. I tracked down the maintenance workers who saved the day, and it was quite a tale.

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Lincoln, Calif.: I worked in the building for 22 years and consider it a marvel. Weren't there plans at one time for a 25-story executive tower to be built in the courtyard -- better known as ground zero?

Steve Vogel: Yes. By the end of the war, big as it was, the Pentagon wasn't big enough for the Army. There's a marvelous sketch reproduced in the book showing an Army proposal right after Japan's surrender in 1945 to construct a mammoth 24-story tower in the courtyard. That, fortunately, did not get too far.

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Alexandria, Va.: I would like to know if you are making any appearances in the area in June.

Steve Vogel: Thanks for the question. I will be speaking tonight (Wednesday) at 7:30 p.m. at the Borders in Bailey's Crossroads, and on Wednesday, June 27 at the Olsson's at 2111 Wilson Blvd. Details of these and other events are on the book's Web site.

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Southern Maryland: My grandfather, who was born in 1906 and came to Washington in the early '20s, said that the site of the Pentagon area used to be the dump (or today's term, "landfill"). Truth or hearsay? Thanks!

Steve Vogel: Thanks for the question. Your grandfather was essentially correct -- some of the building was constructed atop a neighborhood known as "Hells Bottom." A very appropriate name; it included gambling dens, murder traps, shacks, as well as brickyards and a waste dump that always was billowing a foul smoke. The Pentagon grounds are so large that they included much nicer neighborhoods, including, as I describe in the book, the now-forgotten historic black community of Queen City, which was razed to make way for the roads and the South Parking lot

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Cushing, Maine: I remember there were a number of jokes that circulated in 1942 and later, about the complexity of The Pentagon. Did you include any of these in your book?

Steve Vogel: There were many jokes, and many of them are included in the book. There's the famous one about the Western Union clerk who entered the Pentagon on Monday to deliver a telegram and emerged Friday as a colonel.

Employees used to claim that the designer went insane after he finished the building. Others claimed he was insane before he started.

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Alexandria, Va.: Steve -- how did Somervell, Groves, Bergstrom and McShain get along? I believe they all had strong personalities.

Steve Vogel: You are right. Every one of them had remarkable, strong personalities. Gen. Brehon Somervell, the father of the Pentagon, was known as Dynamite in a Tiffany Box, which accurately summarized his personality: A refined and courtly gentleman, but one burning with fury to get things done.

Leslie Groves, his deputy who oversaw the Pentagon construction and went on to lead the Manhattan Project building an atomic bomb, has been described as Somervell without the charm. He was a formidable character. Somervell and Groves had enormous respect for each other, but there was no great love lost between them.

John McShain, the builder, was a charming man, but he was driven to distraction trying to deal with Somervell and Groves and their incessant demands.

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Banska Bystrica, Slovakia: I'm teaching at a University in Slovakia, and a commonly held belief here (by students and some professors) is that the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon was staged, because of the lack of major damage. How can I persuade them that this building could take such a hit?

Steve Vogel: I'm always amazed to hear about this suspicion. The level of damage to the Pentagon was actually quite extraordinary, as the book documents. It didn't look like much from the outside, in part because the Pentagon is such an enormous building -- each side a fifth of a mile long -- that the gash on its side looked relatively insignificant. The reality that rescuers found inside was entirely different. It was a horrible scene, and it does the victims a terrible disservice to suggest it was otherwise. But thanks for asking the question, because that sentiment is common.

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Chantilly, Va.: I had read somewhere that the Pentagon originally was supposed to be two stories tall. If that's true, when did they add the other three stories? That seems like quite an undertaking to double a building's height after there are people working in it full-time. Did they just hold off until after the war when steel could be used again?

Steve Vogel: That's a remarkable tale that's addressed in the book. Somervell used lots of tricks to build a bigger Pentagon than anyone expected. He promised Congress it would be three stories, but it was constructed as four. He got around that by labeling the first floor the basement. Then he made no mention of the sub-basement, or for that matter, the sub-sub basement. Then, after employees had started to move in, Somervell approved a plan to build out the fifth floor, so they could have even more space. He labeled that the "fourth floor-intermediate."

The employees underneath had to deal with a lot, including concrete spilling on their heads.

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Washington, D.C.: Is the Pentagon the official name of the building? Did it always go by that name?

Steve Vogel: It was officially known as the "New War Department Building in Arlington" for the first few months. This was to distinguish it from the New War Department Building that had just opened up that year in Foggy Bottom (today the State Department). That title was a real mouthful, and Army officers and employees began using the name Pentagon informally pretty early on. I found a memo from 1942 where the Army officially threw in the towel and started calling it The Pentagon Building.

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Mount Rainier, Md.: Can you explain how the numbers for each room in the Pentagon were established?

Steve Vogel: Like many other aspects of the Pentagon, this was done on the fly. Lt. Col. Renshaw, the constructing engineer, was ordered to come up with a system shortly before workers started moving in. He sat down at a desk and came up with that five-number-and letter scheme that's still used to this day. Groves complained that it looked like an accounting ledger, but it worked.

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Washington, D.C.: In your book you write about the march on the Pentagon during the Vietnam War. Can you compare that march to the more recent one protesting the war in Iraq? Thanks.

Steve Vogel: The 1967 march on the Pentagon was an extraordinary event, as the book relates. There were some miscalculations made by the Department of Defense leaders overseeing the defense of the building -- they had assembled an extraordinary amount of force to protect the building, but in the interest of PR, kept most of the troops hidden in the building. I found documents that show that the Army concluded this light show of force only served to encourage some of the protesters to violence. One result was that the troops left outside to initially deal with the crowd withstood terrible abuse.

The march on the Pentagon to protest the Iraq war in March was a pale comparison, a much smaller and tamer affair. But the angry reaction from the counter-protestors shows that many of the schisms from 40 years ago are alive and well.

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East Lansing, Mich.: One of the best parts of the Pentagon is the inner courtyard. It is quiet, and a nice place to sit and relax (at least in the summer). Were the planners of the Pentagon planning for the inner courtyard to be as it is now?

Steve Vogel: Early on, before Pearl Harbor, there was a proposal to use the courtyard as mural training ground for artists. That didn't go far, but the designers did plant some scraggly trees. (They wanted to do more, but Groves wouldn't allow it to hold down costs). It was a muddy construction site for a while, but by the latter years of the war the courtyard had developed into a little oasis with beach umbrellas and food stands.

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Garrett Park, Md.: Do you think the enormity of the Pentagon in relation to other government buildings reflects the power and influence of the military/industrial complex? Do you think the plan to build the Pentagon was itself a conscious step by the military in establishing that complex?

Steve Vogel: There's no question that the size of the Pentagon reflects the enormity of the military-industrial complex. But as the book relates, much about the Pentagon was hurriedly planned and largely accidental, and reflects the force of one man's personality -- Gen. Brehon Somervell. But the Pentagon was soon seized upon to fill the role you describe.

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Hilton Head, S.C.: I hear you are speaking on Hilton Head Island in October. Is that true?

Steve Vogel: Yes, I'll be speaking at the World Affairs Council of Hilton Head on Oct. 5, and am looking forward to it.

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Chicago: I really enjoyed the article, especially the contrast of how things were done then with how we do them today. If the Pentagon were built today, what would it look like and where would they put it? Thanks.

Steve Vogel: Thanks very much. We'll probably never know, because the environmental impact studies never would be completed. I truly do not believe a building like the Pentagon could be constructed today.

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Steve Vogel: It looks like we've run out of time. Thanks very much for all the excellent and interesting questions. Please feel free to check the book's Web site for further information. Thanks.

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