First-Person: Cuban Rafters Describe Their Journeys

Roberto Morales came to the U.S. by raft in 1993, when he was picked up by the Coast Guard and brought to shore just before the introduction of the "wet foot, dry foot" policy. He later told his story in his book "65 Horas con la Muerte." Rafael Diaz Rey made three rafting attempts -- converting 1947 and 1959 Buicks and a 1949 Mercury into boats. Although he was intercepted by the U.S. Coast Guard each time, he and his family were allowed entry in 2005 on a visa from the U.S. Interests Section in Havana.

The two rafters were online Wednesday, Aug. 1 at noon ET to tell their stories and take your questions.

A Wave of Uncertainty: U.S.-Cuban Migration Policy (washingtonpost.com, July 31)

Related Discussions: Post Reporter Miguel Roig-Franzia| AEI Scholar Mark Falcoff, 10 a.m. Thursday ET

The transcript follows.

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Roberto Morales: Hi everyone, this is Roberto Morales It is a pleasure to be here.

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Wilmington, N.C.: Hi, I was intrigued by your stories. Given your experiences as rafters, did either of you have strong views on the Elian Gonzalez case?

Roberto Morales: Elian's case was controversial because most people don't understand the Cuban government's mentality. The American government must decide the best option for the child, including separation from biological parents. It happens every day in cases of child abuse, drug addiction, etc.

Cubans knew that Elian would be used by Castro as a trophy, and the kid would be brainwashed even against his mother's memory. On the other hand, we knew Elian's father was being forced to say what he said.

Imagine a CIA agent telling you, "If you don't say what I tell you to say, your family will pay the price." In order to understand Cuban exile, your have to think about the Cuban government as a huge, unlimited power Mafia.

Rafael Diaz Rey: We were in Cuba when this story with Elian was happening. Everything the Cuban press was saying was in favor of returning Elian to Cuba. As a father, I wouldn't want my children growing up in Cuba, so I would say that it was better to keep Elian here in the United States.

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washingtonpost.com: Note to readers: We are translating for Rafael Diaz Rey, which is slowing down the discussion somewhat. Thank you for your patience.

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Arlington, Va.: Mr. Diaz Rey: Is it the case that older American cars are easier to convert into boats? They often look like boats to me, even when they are on land! Does the large size and long length of such vehicles make them better boats? And where on earth did you come up with the idea of making a car into a boat?

Rafael Diaz Rey: I got the idea in 1994. I was talking with another mechanic friend of mine about whether it could be done. He thought it could not be done but I thought it was possible. The reality in Cuba is that the older cars of the 1940s and 1950s are easier to come by -- they were not registered as strictly with the Cuban goverment. The newer Soviet cars were more strictly monitored so I had easier access to the older cars. It is true that the older cars were stronger, wider, more roomy inside and possibly easier to convert into boats. Plus, it was easier to hide my work by using this type of car. I put a propeller underneath the car, but it could be hidden while driving. I was also able to inject certain parts with styrofoam so that the cars would be able to float.

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Washington: Hi. Now that you're in the U.S., do you wish there was something that could be done for the Cubans who are still in Cuba? Also, what do you think of those white Cubans who forget their roots and want to assimilate with whites? Que piensan del "wet feet, dry feet" policy?

Roberto Morales: If you could read Cubans' (on the Island) minds, most of them will support anything (including a U.S. invasion) to release their suffering. When you live without hope, even life is meaningless. Ask a psychologist and he will tell you that lack of hope leads to depression, and severe depression leads to suicide.

They know that Communists will never give up their power. For them, the people is the last concern.

About the "White Cubans" who become "Americanized"... if you know Cuban history you will find that Cubans used to live like Americans before Castro's arrival. The main difference we had was the language, but even the Havana Capitol was a replica of Washington's.

Today, if you have to chose a nation (its people, not the government) that really love Americans, you can bid on the Cuban people. Even our allies in Europe hate America (don't ask me why). They support Castro just for opposing the U.S.

Regarding the Wet feet, Dry feet police. As an American citizen, I understand that the U.S. needs to protect its border, but as a Cuban rafter, it hurts to know that the U.S. Coast Guard (the same guys we saw as heroes) are now acting as Cuban foreign police. Imagine taking a bird that has been hurt and putting it into the cat's mouth. If you won't do this to a bird, how could you do it a human being whose only crime is escaping from oppression?

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Washington: How have you both been received by the Cuban-American community in Miami? Are you seen as heroes, victims or something else?

Rafael Diaz Rey: We got a very warm reception here in Miami. People were fascinated by the car and thought it was an original idea. A lot of people even recognized me on the street after that and would ask me questions about the trip. The car-boats even helped me get my current job, because the work that went into them caught the attention of the owner of the dealership where I work.

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Boston: I found your stories really interesting. I'm wondering how you managed to keep your plans "secret" in Cuba. Do you think that others knew but didn't say anything, or did you have real concern that you might be exposed? What would have happened to you if someone had reported you?

Roberto Morales: Most people are captured because a family member tells the police. They would rather see their loved ones in jail than lose them at sea.

Statistics show that only one out of four will make it to the U.S. alive.

In my case, I took the time to convince my family that we would survive, and then used their help to watch for the police. The voyage and the escape was planned for nearly two years. We selected a night without moon and a time at which a Brazilian soap opera was on air. We knew that even police and border patrols got hooked to the TV.

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San Francisco: I just saw the Oscar-nominated documentary "Balseros," and it certainly presented a mixed bag regarding the fate of Cuban immigrants once they get to the United States. How difficult was the adjustment for you once you got here? Also, do you believe that Cuban Americans (particularly the younger generation) are shifting on their opinion of U.S. policy toward Cuba?

Rafael Diaz Rey: I did see the movie and I thought it was interesting. It did show the some of the harsher realities of the transitions that rafters have had to make when they come to the United States. But each case is individual. It is very difficult to leave everything behind -- friends, family, everything. My mom is 80 years old and I knew that I would be leaving her behind for good. It was very emotional, but we made a decision as a family to change our lives. Another thing that helped me is that I had the fortune of having been trained as a mechanic. I was a mechanic my whole life, so I had that to fall back on for work. Other people may come here without the same types of skills that help them make such a difficult transition. You are also dealing with people who are used to a communist system, of barely getting by day-to-day. The adjustment to a capitalist system can be very abrupt for them.

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Stuarts Draft, Va.: I love both of your stories and hope that you and your families find peace and prosperity here. Rafael: Is living in America what you expected to be like? Roberto: How can you best help to improve the situation in Cuba so that people there can have decent living conditions?

Roberto Morales: Forcing communists out. They don't believe in democracy. They will do anything to stay in power, including faking some openings to democracy. If they feel they cannot hold on for much longer, they will pretend some temporary "cosmetic changes" until they are back on track. It happened in 1994 when they allowed people to run their own businesses. When Venezuela started to cover part of the deficit of the Island, the government prohibited independent manufacturers and self-employment again.

Rafael Diaz Rey: Living here has been really good for me and my family. One difficult thing is the language. We are trying to learn English. My kids are doing well with English, but for me and my wife it is much harder. English is very important to advance here. I think it is indispensible. In Cuba, things are a little more social and families might be closer because there isn't a lot to do and there is more time for interaction. Here in the United States, everyone is more absorbed with work. But it is up to you to work as much as you need to work. So, one thing I miss, of course, is my family and the way that we used to be able to spend time together.

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Cleveland: Do the Miami Cubans ever feel regret about leaving their brethern in Cuba in rags and hunger? It is a fact that Cubans at home could live a much better life if American dropped its emgargo ... and America keeps the embargo for political reasons because the Miami Cubans demand it. Seems horribly selfish to me.

Rafael Diaz Rey: The embargo is complicated and to tell you the truth I don't really understand it. If you see photos of Cuba, you see some American products -- electronics make it there, for example. Some U.S. companies are actually doing business there, so it really isn't a complete embargo. On the other hand, you have the Cuban government blaming all its problems on the U.S. embargo. I have family in Cuba. I know they would suffer if the embargo were tightened, but sometimes I think that tightening the embargo would be better. People would suffer for one, maybe two years, and it would be more intense, but I think it could lead to significant change on the island. It might be better than this prolonged, indefinite suffering that just goes on and on.

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Rocky Mount, N.C.: As a native it strikes me as extremely absurd that we are the largest trade partner with China, a country whose atrocities dwarf Cuba's, that we have an ongoing trade of decent size with Vietnam, and Cuba still is treated like we are in the Cold War. The only logical reason I can come up with for why Cuba is still on the bad list has nothing to deal with how he treats his people (we support Musharraf) but is because there are a lot of Cubans living in Florida, and Florida is a swing state when it comes to politics.

Sorry if that strikes the two of you as harsh, but there is nothing in our foreign policy of the past 15-20 years, where we are making billionaires out of Communist Party chairmen in exchange for cheap toys at Wal-Mart, while we still have a trade embargo or treat the Cuban government like sworn enemies. Your thoughts on that? I understand that the two of you have a completely different opinion than I do. I respect it, and if I had lived in Cuba, I probably would feel the same way.

Roberto Morales: I understand your point, but obviously there are things that you don't know or consider in this equation. First at all, I don't like trading with China or any communist country. There is, however, a big difference between Cuba and China. In the 1960s, Castro nationalized all factories on the island. Americans lost over 1 billion dollars in properties and business. They never received compensation.

Cuba owes over 1.5 billion dollars to The Paris Club (an association of investors) and there is no intention to pay the debt. Today, the country that sells most food to Cuba is (and laugh) the USA. So there is not such an embargo. The only problem is that Cuba must pay in cash before we deliver.

I am sure that if you have such a bad history of payment, no one will give you a credit card. Regarding China, even though they are rule by the Communist Party, their economy is capitalist. People are "free" to make money, travel, eat, buy clothes, etc. They cannot participate in politics, however.

Forty percent of their economy belongs to foreign investors, and 90 cents of each dollar you spend on "made in China" products stay in the U.S. economy. They just receive 10 cents per dollar.

I wish (as well Nazism) that all Communism would vanish from humanity.

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Washington: Roberto Morales: Have of you been back to the island since you left? If so, or through speaking with family and friends still on the island, do you feel that views on wanting to leave the island have changed since the 1994 rafters crisis and the better economic conditions people live in today?

Roberto Morales: I visit my Cuba every week in my dreams.

No, I have not returned to the island. I haven't seen my family in fourteen years and the main reason is because once you step on Cuban soil, your rights are forbidden. It is like visiting a town (far away from civilization) that is ruled and controlled by a bloody gang. If they pick up on you, your life is over.

Cuba is the only nation that forces its citizens to request a temporary visa ($130) to enter. Besides, you must purchase a Cuban passport ($280) since they don't allow us to travel with a foreign passport. And pay another $500 ++ air ticket for a 45 minute travel.

I keep contact with my family by phone. Again, calling Cuba costs about $1 per minute. As you can see, the Cuban government is exploiting to the maximum possible level its people tragedy to make money. People want to leave the island more than anything because they don't see an end to their suffering.

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Vienna, Va.: What happens to those who are intercepted by the U.S. Coast Guard and returned to Cuba? Are they persecuted by police at all?

Rafael Diaz Rey: When they find you at sea, generally, the Coast Guard brings you onboard their ship and an official from immigration does an interview. In our case in 2004, we were picked up by the Coast Guard and interviewed by immigration officials. The Coast Guard brought us back to a port in Pinar Del Rio, Cuba. We were then questioned repeatedly by Cuban government officials. It didn't stop there. They wanted to know who gave us money to make the trip, who sponsored us, who else was involved -- those kinds of questions. I was detained after that several times for days at a time and questioned. We were watched closely. My wife lost her status at the medical clinic where she worked. In her job as a doctor, they demoted her. They gave her the work that no one else wanted to do as a sort of punishment. They wouldn't let her advance. So it affected everything about our lives. It was horrible. In Cuba, you are either with the government or against it. And once you are identified as someone who is against the government, life becomes extremely difficult.

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If you could read Cubans' (on the Island) minds, most of them will support anything (including an U.S. invasion) to release their suffering.: If there were true, why doesn't the governement topple? Who is there to support Castro? Either he has supporters or he doesn't.

Roberto Morales: You won't find in history a Communist country that has changed because of its people. They all have changed because the government could not support itself and disintegrated.

There is a big difference between a dictatorship (like that of Somosa, Pinochet, Trujillo, etc.) and a totalitarian dictatorship like Communism. In Communism everything is controlled. They have been very effective in developing the state's terrorism, where every citizen becomes paranoid and thinks he's being watched all the time. It is like carrying a secret-police agent inside you.

Castro's supporters, by contrast, speak as communists but live as millionaires. They won't renounce their living style even if they have to use military force to repress and kill any one who oppose them. Don't believe those massive meetings when Castro gives a speech. People are forced to go or they will lose their jobs.

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Washington: Roberto or Rafael, are either of you from the provinces? How is life in the provinces compared to Havana? Are things more difficult, easier, the same? Thank you.

Rafael Diaz Rey: Life in the provinces is much different than in Havana, but that is true in other places too. In some of Cuba's provinces it is harder to for the people to get clothes and other goods compared to the capital. There is also a lack of electricity. The difference in Cuba is that the government controls movement and immigration within the country, so people are not allowed to move from place to place the way they are free to move around in the United States.

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Washington: What do you think about American celebrities who travel to Cuba and praise the government there -- people like Oliver Stone, Danny Glover and Michael Moore? Also, what do you think about American journalists who seem to have some sympathy for the Cuban system?

Roberto Morales: Shame on them, specially if they are African-American. Cuban population is about 50-50 (black and whites); however, 90% of Cuban inmates are black, and there is only one black person in the government elite. It is clear that there are not equal opportunities for black people in Cuba.

Cuba is the seccond country in the world with more journalists in jail (China is number one). Ironically, some journalists see Castro as a Latin Robin Hood.

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Silver Spring, Md.: Hi. My mother and aunt escaped communist Poland to come to the U.S., so your stories are especially meaningful to me. Do you find that most Americans have no real clue about what living under communism is really like?

Roberto Morales: Unfortunately you are right. Most Americans don't understand the genocide nature of Communism.

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Chesapeake, Va.: Hello. You are both very brave to have risked your lives for a better life. I would like to know what you hope for in the future, not just for yourselves but for Cuba? And how often do you talk to your loved ones left behind in Cuba? Thank you.

Rafael Diaz Rey: Thank you. As for Cuba, what would be best for the island is a complete change of the system. Right now, you have Castro's brother in power and I don't see much change happening with him. Change within Cuba would be best, but the problem is that the Cuban people don't have a mechanism to overcome the government's repression. I talk to my family by phone and they have to be very careful with what they say. When we talk, they just say that things keep getting worse. When we left, the only reason that they didn't get in trouble was that the foreign press was at my family's house because they were interested in the story. But there were some friends who were with us in the car- boat during that last trip. They were not allowed to stay in the United States like we were. So when they were returned to Cuba, they had the same types of problems with the government's state security that we had before.

Everything I'm seeing indicates that there will not be much change in Cuba.

Thank you very much for all the questions. I have to return to work now.

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Washington: Can you contact family/friends in Cuba?

Roberto Morales: By phone, but it is too expensive.

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The American government must decide the best option for the child including separation from biological parents.: But isn't that exactly why you left Cuba -- government controling personal choices? You can't have it both ways. You left a nation of government control for a nation of freedom, so let America treat all people with freedom, not control Elian or his father.

Roberto Morales: When I left, I was an adult, Elian was not.

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Hyattsville, Md.: Do you support illegal immigration?

Roberto Morales: No. Try to go to Mexico and request legal status. You will receive a kick (or more) under your back.

As a mater of fact, Mexico is the country that deports most immigrants (including those escaping Communism). Cuba, by the way, is the only country that requests that its citizens to be deported back to the island, and is willing to kill you for trying to escape.

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Annandale, Va.: What would be your advice to illegal immigrants in this country given the state of the immigration legislation in Congress and efforts like the law passed recently in Northern Virginia?

washingtonpost.com: Latinos Unite to Turn Fear Into Activism (Post, July 28)

Roberto Morales: I don't have information about this new law; however, my advice for illegal immigrants is not to make massive manifestations. Don't let your noble cause be used by extreme left- wing activists and pro-communists to create chaos.

Don't let participants wear T-shirts with anti-American idols like Ernesto Che Guevara, use the American Flag in your meetings. You can use others but American must be the biggest.

Don't cover your faces... honest people don't do that.

Americans are generous, but they don't like when a stranger comes to their porch try to impose changes.

I thank you all for giving me the opportunity to answer your concerns. I wish I could answer to all of you. If you want to communicate with me or get information about my book "65 Horas con la Muerte" (it is written in Spanish, I'm sorry), please email me:

rafter93@hotmail.com

Thank you and God bless you all.

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