Books -- 'A Class Apart'

Alec Klein
Author, Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 3, 2007 12:00 PM

Post staff writer Alec Klein discussed his new book, "A Class Apart: Prodigies, Pressure, and Passion Inside One of America's Best High Schools," a look at Stuyvesant High School, one of the most competitive public high schools in the country.

Klein is a Washington Post business investigations reporter and the author of "Stealing Time: Steve Case, Jerry Levin, and the Collapse of AOL Time Warner." Klein, Stuyvesant class of 1985, was online Wednesday, Oct. 3 at noon ET to take your questions and comments.

A transcript follows.

____________________

Alec Klein: Thank you all for attending today's chat about A Class Apart. Let's get right to the questions!

_______________________

Alexandria, Va. - SHS '81: Alec, what a wonderful book. You have captured and explained the idea perfectly. I think that, for at least a few people in my class, Stuyvesant bred an exceptional level of perceptive sophistication which I see in nearly none of the high school students in this area. I regret that.

Question: can you comment on the college trend du jour, embraced officially by The Post's Jay Mathews, that it simply doesn't matter where you go?

Thanks.

Alec Klein: Thanks so much, I appreciate that. And I appreciate the question. When I attended Stuyvesant High School, the pursuit of brand-name colleges had already reached fever pitch. I ended up at Brown University, and--no disrespect to the Ivy League--I have come to the conclusion that, for the most part, it does not indeed matter where you go to college, that it's a question of what you do after college, how you apply yourself and what kind of drive you have.

_______________________

Fair Lawn, N.J.: Alec,

First of all, I thoroughly enjoyed your book. You helped me better understand the nature of these unique schools and that, no matter how bright they may be, even these teenagers cannot escape the angst of adolescence (and they have issues many others don't!).

Here's my question for you:

Do you believe our most talented math/science/tech students require special schools like Stuyvesant to fully develop their potential? As a follow-up, what do you say to educators and others school experts who argue that this "brain drain" from our public schools has a negative effect on the learning environment in these schools, since, they argue, talented students raise the level of discourse, challenge and expectations for the other students in that class. Please note that these arguments are not necessarily shared by me. I'm simply repeating common arguments and asking for your opinion.

Alec Klein: Thank you very much for that kind note and question. It's a tough question, one perhaps without a simple answer. As you may know, schools like Stuyvesant are not in vogue; in fact, many education authorities are troubled by public schools that admit students only by an entrance exam, the argument being that it's not a good idea to segregate the so-called gifted and talented from their neighborhood schools. They say that driven students are a major factor in raising the performance of an entire school because, after all, there is nothing like peer pressure to get students motivated. Also, what does it tell students who do not gain admission to such selective schools? At such a young age, are they being told they are not good enough?

_______________________

Brooklyn, N.Y.: I feel like a huge take home message from your book is that we're all educators. Are you prepared for this book to be taught in undergraduate and graduate programs that are studying education, public policy, etc?

Alec Klein: What you say resonates--that we are all educators, especially the parents of the students whom I met and interviewed at Stuyvesant. There was no question that the parents were the secret weapon, the X factor in determining the success of students. They were, for the most part, of modest means, but worked so hard to give their children every advantage--whether that was math camp, music lessons, or tutoring. And yes, I'd be honored if the book was used in studying education at the undergraduate and graduate levels.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: Considering that Stuyvesant is an exam school (students have to apply and pass an advanced test to get in) and so has top students in ability and motivation, can it really serve as a model for regular schools? Is there anything other schools can learn from the way Stuyvesant teaches its classes?

Alec Klein: That's a good question, one that comes up often. It's true, Stuyvesant benefits from an entrance exam that brings in some of the best and brightest. But in my time reporting and researching A Class Apart, I was struck by the lessons that could be applied to other schools, public or private, selective or not. For one, as mentioned, parental involvment is a great asset of any school, and it costs nothing. For another, at Stuyvesant, students are frequently told they are the best, and that kind of positive reinforcement has a wonderful effect, as students seek to make it true. I believe that such positive reinforcement could be emphasized more at other schools, and again, it costs nothing. And thirdly, at Stuyvesant, the faculty promoted a sense of freedom, letting students make the school a second home. While it may be difficult to do that at every school, there is I believe a way of making students feel good about the school they attend--and again, it costs nothing.

_______________________

Charlottesville, Va.: You mention the effective absence of school crime (i.e. violent crime) as a major factor in Stuyvesant's success -- but did you witness any evidence of Stuyvesant students using their tech savvy to experiment with white-collar crime?

Alec Klein: Stuyvesant is lucky in the sense that violence is almost nonexistence. Most battles are over grades. Students, though, are resourceful, especially when it comes to cheating, one of the perennial problems at Stuyvesant and at schools everywhere. Students used various methods to convey answers to tests to their friends, whether by color-coded M&Ms, or PDAs. In return, the faculty sought to combat such abuses by turning to high-tech services that could ferret out cheaters.

_______________________

Greebelt, Md.: Taking your Stuyvesant observations national, why do you think that the U.S. has neither a true national policy nor the equivalent of the NCLB for identified gifted children?

Moreover, with a brain-drain rivaling that of Europe during and after WWII occurring, how can the U.S. use such a policy to increase advanced degrees in science, math and technology for U.S. citizens?

Alec Klein: In America today, educators and policymakers are largely focused on how to raise the performance of under-achieving students, and that's a good goal. As you mention, No Child Left Behind is part of that effort. And it's also true, as you point out, that there is little attention paid to the gifted and talented, which seems somewhat perplexing given the fact that these students often end up as the leaders of our country, trail blazing in math and science, public service and the arts, in virtually every field. That fact is evident at Stuyvesant, which has produced four Nobel Laureates and countless other luminaries. Hopefully, this book will prompt policymakers and educators to think more about this largely neglected group of students.

_______________________

Arlington, Va., SHS'62: Loved your book. What it told me was how much Stuyvesant changed from when I attended. Of course, new building, girls, more diversity are obvious. But when I attended, football was semi-important and good and the students did not spend every waking hour worrying about tests and college. Did you get a sense from some of the more experienced teachers as to how the changed environment came about and whether it is good?

Alec Klein: Thank you. Stuyvesant--and schools everywhere--have changed dramatically not only since you graduated but from the time I left as well in 1985. At Stuyvesant, it's true, football is of little importance, and the results show as much. Last year, the team finished 1-8, with its sole victory coming by default; the other team couldn't field enough players. My work on A Class Apart convinced me that high school has become increasingly difficult, more pressurized and decidedly more complex. There are more standardized tests, and certainly more competition. Part of that has to do with the increased emphasis on standardized tests, a national movement. Part of it, I think, also has to do with parents who want their children to go to the best schools.

_______________________

Munich, Germany: Were there any incidences at Stuyvesant where the pressure proved to be too much for some students? What happened to those who couldn't cope?

Alec Klein: Thanks for joining us from Germany. And yes, there were examples of students buckling under the pressure. One of the central figures in A Class Apart is a student named Jane. A native of China, she was incredibly gifted. She scored high on the SAT and wrote beautiful poetry. But she also suffered from an addiction to heroin. It was a tough story to document. It was like watching a train wreck unfolding before your very eyes. I don't want to give away what happened to Jane, but there are certainly lessons to be learned about how schools help, or don't help, students in need.

_______________________

New York, NY: Attending Hunter High School in the early 1990s, we flattered ourselves by saying that Stuyvesant (a) was a vast sea of Asian math and science geeks with no room for art or poetry (b) had a violence/gang problem and (c) was so vast as to be horrifyingly impersonal. How much, if any, of that was ever true? Is true? And where would you say Hunter and Stuy sit today in relation on the elite HS landscape? (For non New Yorkers, Hunter HS is the other super-duper-elite public HS in NYC, with more of a humanities focus.)

Alec Klein: Ah, a Hunter High grad. It's true, Hunter is one of the best schools in the country, too, a rival of Stuyvesant. And I do mention in the book several high-achieving schools, including Hunter, New Trier, Lowell, just to name a few. To answer your question, Stuyvesant today is about 55 percent Asian, though I wouldn't say it's only made up of math and science geeks. Many students explore art and poetry, even though the school was--and is--known as a math and science school. Some students were members of gangs, but rarely did you see that seep into the school hallways. And as far as your question about the school being impersonal, I'd say that there is truth and fiction in that thought. It's a big school--10 story, 3,000 students--and it's easy to get lost in the mix. On the other hand, there is something intimate about the place, about how the students find a way to make it their own.

_______________________

Springfield, Va.: Alex,

If Stuyvesant is "one of America's best high schools", why wasn't it listed in The Washington Post Top 200 high schools?

Alec Klein: Every year, Newsweek publishes a list of the top high schools in the nation. It's a list based on a formula by education authority Jay Mathews, an education reporter at The Washington Post, a dean in the field. That formula, as I recall, is based on the number of students who take advanced placement courses divided by the number of students in the senior class. It's one measure of a school. But many educators say that there are several other factors. At Stuyvesant, for instance, the principal says that a better measure is the score that students get on the advanced placement test, and as you might expect, those scores are high there. Stuyvesant often is separated from the lists of top schools because it is considered different; students must take a test to get in. Few, however, would argue with the claim that Stuyvesant is one of the best schools in America. Virtually all students graduate and go on to college. One of four gets into an Ivy League. The average SAT score is over 1,400 on the old test.

_______________________

Charleston, S.C.: It was great speaking with you last week.

One of the questions that I did not ask you in our phone conversation was whether or not you ever witnessed any abuse from a parent pushing their child too hard to be perfect for the school? Or, did you ever overhear a conversation about such abuse from students or teachers?

Alec Klein: It was good speaking with you, too. And absolutely, I did witness parents who pushed their children, perhaps to a fault, to achieve. In one instance, described in the book, a student named Mariya brought home a report card with a grade point overage of 94.86, a drop of less than half of a percentage point. She was punished. The drop in her average, however, didn't count. The report card was only an indication of her progress. But like most things in life, there are shades of grade. It turned out that Mariya is an immigrant whose parents see her as the key to a better life, the American Dream, and on some level, it makes sense when you talk to her parents and listen to what they have to say. Teachers also described various examples of parents applying a lot of pressure. In one case, a teacher described how a parent called to complain about the grade that their child received. It was a 97.

_______________________

Washington, D.C. : Was it difficult to get students to talk? One of the things that strikes me the most about your book is how much intimate detail the students shared with you about their lives.

Alec Klein: There were times it was a bit awkward. After all, I was a 39-year-old man asking high school students to tell me all about their lives and to let me spend time with them in and out of school. But one of the great things about teenagers is that they're honest and open. And when they realized that I was not there to judge them, that I just wanted to understand, they let me into their lives, and I think the book shows that there is so much about teenagers that parents never hear or witness.

_______________________

Maryland: What is it about Stuy that kids want to learn there and other schools can barely get kids to show up for class let alone want to be there?

Alec Klein: At Stuyvesant, about one third of the students are immigrants, and it was amazing to see how the American Dream manifested itself in the drive and determination of students to achieve for themselves and their families. Stuyvesant, and education in general, was often viewed as the key to a better life. That played a great role in the life of the school. But beyond that, Stuyvesant fostered a culture where the students wanted to be there, not only for class, but for after-school activities, whether it was robotics, or chess, or tennis, or dance, or theater or any of the other extracurriculars available to them. I think that other schools could learn from the example of Stuyvesant by fostering a culture where students want to be there.

_______________________

Washington, DC: Mr. Klein,

I was just wondering if you meant your title "A Class Apart" to be ironic, since not only are the Stuyvesant students an exceptional class of students, but they come from a much more privileged social class than their fellow teenagers down the block (lots of blocks, actually) in the 'real' public schools. I know your book is not about urban education or problems in inner city schools, but I thought you might have intended a double meaning...

Alec Klein: Good question. The title, A Class Apart, did have more than one meaning, though not exactly as you suggest. On one level, it means that Stuyvesant students are indeed among the best. But on another level, the title points to the fact that these students are separated, by virtue of the entrance exam, from students at other schools, a controversial practice especially for a public school funded by taxpayers. It should be noted, by the way, that these students, for the most part, come from modest families. Stuyvesant is not made up of rich kids. Indeed, many of the parents I met held down modest jobs, such as driving taxis and running delis.

_______________________

Illinios: I read your book and liked it a lot, but I'm not sure I think public funds should be used to create schools for gifted teens when there are so many public schools that need more funding and have a low graduation rate. What do you think?

Alec Klein: A good question--and at the heart of the book, in many ways. Is it fair for taxpayers to fund a selective public school like Stuyvesant? I leave it to educators and policymakers to hash it out.

_______________________

Washington, D.C.: Hi Mr. Klein,

I'm a student at a top girls' school in D.C., and one thing I've realized is that in my junior and senior year I have taken ONLY college level classes. I have friends (grads of my school) at Yale and Princeton who say high school was 10 times more stressful and more work than college. You might say that in college courses are more challenging, and no high school course, however well designed and well taught, could rival a college course, but my friends say they actually learned more and had better teachers in some of their high school courses. I'm sure this is a phenomenon that also occurs at Stuyvesant (I happen to have a couple friends who go there too, actually). What do you think about this? Will we ever get to a point where privileged children virtually go to 'college' starting at the age of 15 or 16?

P.S. I think the NYTimes had an article about this a while ago; it put the course descriptions from a Harvard English class and an Exeter English class side by side and talked about how they were virtually the same class.

Alec Klein: Well, I think you're on to something. My experience: Stuyvesant High School was a lot tougher academically than Brown University. By the time I got to college, the work seemed like a breeze. Only four college classes a semester versus eight or nine in high school. But one of the great things about college is that it's about exploring who you are and finding your place in the world, and that often happens outside of the classroom.

_______________________

Laurel, Md.: W. E. B. DuBois spoke of nurturing the "Talented Tenth" - exceptionally bright kids who could benefit from rigor, high standards and mentoring from both scholars and professional in a given subject domain.

Could Stuyvesant's model be effective in other states to provide this community that option? Have you spoken with Jay Mathews about leveraging Stuyvesant's model for success within other public schools? Jay's a huge proponent of "AP for All".

Alec Klein: I haven't spoken to Jay Mathews about that, but what you note is a tantalizing idea, one that also dates back to Thomas Jefferson. I do believe Stuyvesant can be a model for schools in other states, whether they are public or private, exam-based or not.

_______________________

Alec Klein: We're out of time, and my apologies for not getting to all the questions. Feel free to contact me at kleina@washpost.com. And thank you all for such incisive questions.

_______________________

Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions. washingtonpost.com is not responsible for any content posted by third parties.