Washington Post Magazine: The Amazing Adventures of Supergrad

The most sophisticated, accomplished, entitled graduates ever produced by American colleges are heading into the workplace. And employers are falling all over themselves to vie for their talents.

Washington Post Magazine staff writer Liza Mundy was online Monday, June 9 to discuss her cover story, "The Amazing Adventures of Supergrad."

Mundy graduated from Princeton University in 1982, which she says was "the worst year for college hiring since the Great Depression." She is the author of Everything Conceivable, a book about reproductive medicine.

A transcript follows.

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Liza Mundy: Hello all and thanks for writing in. Lots of responses and I will get started shortly.

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Washington, D.C.: I was quite literally stunned by this article. I manage the intern program for a large non-profit in D.C., and wonder how we can ever compete for bright, accomplished students with the corporate giants who are flooding candidates with their time and money. Even though we pay our interns, I wonder how we can best lure today's super-achievers into non-profit careers.

Liza Mundy: I did talk to people who share this concern: that intensive recruiting from the financial industry and private sector are going to drain qualified graduates away from the nonprofit section, and/or from public service. If it makes you feel any better, the women who founded Gardens of Health are all planning to stick with the nonprofit sector. But Elliot Gerson, American secretary for the Rhodes Trust, says that he sees the financial section doing much more proactive recruiting of Rhodes Scholars than ever before, so it is a real phenomenon. That said, at least according to the stereotype, this sector is supposed to have a strong desire for public service and "giving back," so surely that gives an edge to a large nonprofit like yours.

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Washington, D.C.: The Metro section had a nice counter to this article -- about an older transfer student at Bucknell who was attending on scholarship, and every weekend traveled back to Maryland to visit his family. I hope the Merrill Lynches and JP Morgans of the world will pay as much attention to his accomplishments as they do to the "superstars."

washingtonpost.com: 'The Best and Worst of Both Worlds': Full Ride to College Offers a Laid-Off Family Man The Opportunity, and the Challenge, of His Life (Washington Post, June 8)

Liza Mundy: I agree with you--I loved that article. And I know that professors enormously value the students who deeply appreciate their education, like the one you mentioned.

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Wilmington, Del.: What effect do you think this trend is having on younger workers already in the workforce (those few born at the tail end of Gen X/older parts of Gen Y), and the ways they interact with the millennials?

I've seen many allowances made for new hires of the type you discuss in your article, largely to the sometimes opposing ends of "work-life balance" and advanced opportunities. These often come from baby boomer-age managers who have kids the same age as these folks, and sometimes seem to treat them less as "employees" than nieces or nephews they are helping out. This can make for some tension, especially in offices where seniority had been given a lot of emphasis. Is this something you saw in your reporting?

Liza Mundy: Yes. Based on my reporting, there are lots of consultants out there who advise companies on how to manage essentially four generations in the workplace: pre-baby boomer (known apparently as "traditional"); boomer; Generation X; and, now millennial. Now, of course, some of these demographic distinctions may be hyped or exaggerated, as many demographic distinctions are, but it does seem to be enough of a phenomenon that there are companies willing to pay people to help them manage conflicting attitudes, etc. I would think of course that tensions are exacerbated by the fact that older workers are experiencing the downturn in the economy so much more acutely, witness layoffs and buyouts, etc.

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St. Leonard, Md.: Every generation has its resume-stuffed overachievers. I have a difficult time believing that most college grads are being courted because of fantastical pasts. I think most are still drinking on the weekends, sleeping through their 8 am classes, and going to class hung over more often than not. You know -- like we did.

Liza Mundy: I don't know. I've talked to some college presidents, and the impression is that for better or worse, students overall are working harder, feeling more pressure to keep their grades up, putting in longer study hours. I think that generally there is more pressure to have a high GPA on your resume; the employers I talked to really do look at this. Before I started reporting, I thought that high school students were the stressed out ones for whom life these days is a grind, and that you got to relax a bit once you got to college. Now I'm not so sure.

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Washington, D.C.: How do we balance the needs of middle managers - who did that scut work and don't want to do it again and feel they've earned some of the fun stuff -- with the younger people who don't want to do the necessary but less glamorous work?

Liza Mundy: Seems to me that this is why companies are hiring all those consultants to help them figure this out. Personally, it seems to me that at some point, entrants into the workforce are going to have to be introduced to the concept of scutwork, and face up to the fact that the workplace does, in fact, involve work.

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Washington, D.C.: Hello from the class of 2005. Every time I see an article like this, I fear another round of jeers about the spoiled, entitled brats that every member of my generation is believed to be. Maybe I'm missing something, but it sure seems to me like my friends and I are "doing our time" in the workforce (well, at least those of us who didn't go immediately to grad school). While I've never changed my boss's kitty litter, I do my share of photocopying, digging through files, and running errands.

Oh, and I had a solid GPA from a well-regarded private university on the West Coast.

Liza Mundy: Your point is well taken. I don't think the article conveyed the impression that millennials are spoiled and entitled; many managers are quoted saying how capable this generation is. An aversion to scutwork is one of the stereotypes that people traffick in, and, as with all stereotypes, it probably has some truth but is not true across the board.

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Washington, D.C.:"I manage the intern program for a large non-profit in D.C., and wonder how we can ever compete for bright, accomplished students with the corporate giants who are flooding candidates with their time and money."

Wow- you mean you can't compete with companies that actually pay their workers a wage? My brother is an intern in D.C. and it's going to cost about $4000 this summer for him to stay here. An unpaid internship simply does not make sense for the vast majority of people, especially since school is already costing an arm and a leg. When you pay your workers nothing, you are getting exactly what you pay for.

Liza Mundy: This, too, is a worry I heard a lot--that there seems to be an expectation among employees that students will have internships on their resumes, and many internships are, in fact, unpaid. I do address this in my piece. As I say, my husband worked construction every summer to pay the bills, and back then, that was an entirely acceptable entry to have on your resume.

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Alexandria, Va.: Great, thought-provoking article. These companies you wrote about go to great lengths to attract high quality applications. But in the end, the number they hire seems small compared to the number who apply. Don't you think word will get out, and applicants will get wise and go elsewhere?

Liza Mundy: I agree with you, that the numbers in the end seem wildly competitive. At the risk of trafficking in stereotype, it does seem to me that this is a generation that is all too used to competition, for better or worse. As one student put it to me, "You always feel like you need to be applying for something." One of the Gardens of Health founders was also looking at the competition for a medical residency as a process of being wined and dined--and, ultimately, competing for one or two slots. It just seems to be a fact of life. Whether people will flee from the process in large numbers seems unlikely.

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Washington, D.C.: A major - if not THE major - reason why the standards for public universities have gone up so high (referencing Tom Shroder's introduction) is the tuition at private colleges. So few middle class families can pay $40-50K per year that they turn to the public university - wish you all would elaborate on that. How long can the middle class take this kind of beating?

washingtonpost.com: Editor's Note (Washington Post Magazine, June 8)

Liza Mundy: I couldn't agree with you more. I live in the state of Virginia. I have two children who will be applying to college in five or six years. I dread the level of competitiveness to get into our public institutions. It's clearly hugely related to the tuition bills at private schools. Another fact of life, and like you, I keep wondering; How long can this go on? And yet there seems no solution on the horizon.

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Philadelphia, Pa.: Was does this pace do to the students, how to they cope with the constant rapid-fire pace of their lives? I'm interested as a millennial -- I just graduated from Rutgers University last month and feel that for better or worse, the race to do more, be more, help more hasn't let up since middle school.

Liza Mundy: I think that's a very good question. A friend of mine has a high school daughter who asks her: "Mom, is there a time in life when I will be more relaxed than I am now, and if so, when will that be?" As a parent I wonder about this constantly. Employers do seem to think that the race to do more and be more is producing a crop of highly qualified applicants, but certainly that competition has to take its toll.

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Construction? Good experience!: I think it's perfectly acceptable to have construction work on your resume, vs. a parade of internships.

When reviewing resumes, my boss actually likes to see former waiters and waitresses - good with people, can multitask and work under pressure. I wish that was the rule, rather than the exception.

Liza Mundy: Possibly a lot of people will be glad to hear this. Assuming you are the rule and not the exception.

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Washington, D.C.: I manage a bunch of millennials, and I am a Gen-Xer. It is very difficult. They do have stuffed resumes, mostly because they have parents who have catered to their every whim, and given them opportunities that most people I went to school with only dreamed of. They are bright and energetic, but also incredibly cocky and unable to take criticism, however constructive. I spend most of my day tending to their delicate feelings and making sure they don't feel left out of projects/processes that I wouldn't have expected to be a part of in their shoes 10 years ago. If I am not proactively guiding them, they are completely lost. And they are whiny about having to do the kind of entry-level tasks that entry-level jobs require. And these are kids from top-notch schools.

On the positive side, they really care about what they are doing (we work for a non-profit) and they are willing to work hard as long as they can take comp time during less busy times.

Liza Mundy: OK, I'm going to post this, and I anticipate a lot of outraged replies!

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Washington, D.C.: Interesting article Liza! I am sure there are many parents of college or high school-aged children out there who have read this. As someone who spent almost 10 years in the career counseling field, I'd like to point out one interesting aspect of your article to those parents - look at the majors these students had. Several were liberal arts, and they were still being courted by prestigious investment banks. I saw way too many kids steered away from the liberal arts by parents who thought their only chance for post-graduate employment rested in business, engineering or computer science. As a liberal arts grad myself, perhaps I am a bit biased, but unless you're planning to be an accountant, nurse or engineer, you can major in what interests you, and you'll likely have a better experience and better grades to boot. Your article shows the importance of internship experience, foreign language skills, and communication skills in the entry-level job market.

Liza Mundy: Well, that's a heartening thought, as an English major myself, I am very glad to post it.

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Bethesda, Md.: So how do the conclusions of your article change now that unemployment has jumped from 5 to 5.5% in one month and we're in the middle of a credit crisis? On the one hand, while that extra .5% of people looking for work probably includes a lot of recent grads, it's more likely that those grads are the ones with slightly less than perfect GPAs and only ordinary resumes. On the other hand, after Bear Stearns went bust, a lot of college seniors who'd committed to work for them were all of a sudden out of a job. Investment banks are a place where a lot of those super-achievers go, and I'd bet a lot of them aren't hiring at normal levels this year.

Liza Mundy: Yes, as I said in the piece, the employment picture even for younger workers is not as rosy as it was back in January, but I think it's still better for younger workers, who are cheaper, than for the older ones who are being offloaded. Also, there is the fact of these baby boomer retirements stretching into the next decade, creating openings that companies are going to have to fill, eventually, which overall makes it still a better employment landscape than the one many prior generations have faced.

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Germantown, Md.: Young people today are raised to believe that if they accomplish A, B, and C, they will be able to achieve their goals. This applies in school (become class president and play three sports and get admission into Harvard -- a gross oversimplification, I know). I think they're taking that same attitude into the workforce. They want to be able to feel they're making an impact in the office, which at the same time, also helps advance their career. Having to photocopy and collate documents doesn't help someone advance their career, and that's probably the attitude entry-level people are taking.

I'm a recent grad and I've been in the workforce for a little less than two years. I'll do the photocopying, since someone has to do it, but at the same time, I'd like to be given something else at the same time that helps me advance my career. I'm not sure managers understand that.

Liza Mundy: OK, point well taken. That actually sounds like a pretty classic first-job experience. As one older worker put it to me during this reporting: entry-level workers have always wanted the same things, pretty much (more fulfilling work, more early; work/life balance, etc) it's just that millennials actually have a shot at getting it. Or more of a shot.

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Washington: Is there any proof that once they are out of the carefully nurtured and supportive environments full of unprecedented opportunity (where I admit they work really hard) that these super grads perform better in the workplace than a state college grad who worked two jobs to put him/herself through school? In other words, can they perform as well on a level playing field completely under their own steam?

Liza Mundy: No studies that I know of, but they may exist, showing who does better in the long run. Both those types of candidates that you describe have the potential to be highly successful, of course, it seems to me.

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Arlington, Va.: I graduated two years ago, and I was a little stunned by your article. I didn't know anyone like those kids when I went to school. Yes, my friends and I were driven, perhaps more driven than generations before us, but that was for one thing and one thing only: the GPA. We all knew it mattered, and trust me, it mattered more than anything else on my resume. I graduated summa cum laude, applied to 7 jobs, and received 7 offers, including for "dream jobs." I was involved in organizations on campus, but not to the extent of those that you profiled. A friend, on the other hand, in the same major with similar activities had "only" a 3.2 GPA. She applied for over 25 jobs (including some of the same that I applied for) and did not receive any job offers, and only 1 or 2 interviews. GPA matters to most jobs.

(But take heart, those with GPAs like my friend. She found a job, through networking with me actually. She and I now have the same position, and nobody cares about her GPA.)

Liza Mundy: Actually, you sound to me a lot like the kids in the article. What is the difference, exactly? And seven job offers for seven applications sounds pretty fantastic, by my standards, or, I think, any standards.

The emphasis on the GPA does sound a little terrifyingly bottom-line, and it does strike me as something relatively new. I did not even know how to calculate a GPA, which of course hopelessly dates me.

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Silver Spring, Md.: Interesting point about the public universities getting more competitive - this was true when I lived in Japan 10 years ago. Only the absolute best students could get into the public universities, where tuition was free. The worse a student you raised, the more you'd have to pay for tuition. It really makes more sense that way, and it'd be interested if the tables are actually turning that way in the U.S.!

Liza Mundy: Yes. Though the phrase "the worse a student you raised" seems a little, um, judgmental.

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Germantown, Md.: As a millennial, I don't mind taking constructive criticism and working hard, but my manager (who I'd peg as a late baby boomer/early Gen-Xer) specializes in finding new ways to criticize me and accuses me of failure to show initiative without any proof. This may have worked to motivate people in the past, but it doesn't work now. Managers need to change with the times as well.

Yes, we grew up in a culture where we were coddled, but that's not really our fault, per se. In a way, you can think of us as being the "messenger" of parenting over the past twenty years or so.

Liza Mundy: Point very well taken.

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Virginia: Enjoyed your article very much. I'm feeling like a fat, lazy, unproductive 30-something!

But seriously, the young people featured represent a tiny portion of actual grads. It's nice to see people really concerned about the fate of the universe, but aren't they are little, hmm, unbelievable? Isn't this a case of resume/diploma padding?

Most of the kids I know (including my own) are well on their way to being (gasp!!) average. And I'm fine with that!

Liza Mundy: Yes indeed, that was the purpose: to induce feelings of anxiety and inferiority. :) Believe me, more than once reporting this piece I reflected on how utterly unskilled I was when I graduated.

Of course, most students are average, but in general, I do think there are more opportunities for internships, travel, and general resume-burnishing now than formerly.

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Silver Spring, Md.: I used to recruit interns at a famous publication (not the Post). We paid them, but not really enough to live on. It always made me think that we were just ensuring that the kids who come out on top are the ones whose parents can afford to support them as they pile up un- and under-paid internships. I hope it doesn't actually work out that way... it was a dismal thought. (Of course, my parents supported me, and here I am - a Gen Xer, for reference, with a fancy journalism job.)

Liza Mundy: I think this is a real concern, and the next entry that I post will reflect the same issue.

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Herndon, Va.: What are your thoughts on how this story illustrates the growing income disparities in the U.S.? I must admit my initial take away is that a lot of kids could achieve great things if Daddy will fund their summer in Africa. Were any of these kids from lower to middle income families?

Liza Mundy: Yes, as I said above I think this is a genuine concern and many people I spoke with voiced it. The push for fancy internships does privilege the middle and upper classes.

However, it's also true that there is active job recruiting going on at all sorts of college campuses, all over the country, not just elite institutions. The local CIA recruiter mentioned in the story goes to schools all over the states; the State Department has adjusted its hiring process so as to draw from a broader pool; and meanwhile, regional employers are blanketing colleges in their states. There are "job fairs" at colleges everywhere. Seems to me that the recruiting is quite intense at a myriad of types of institutions, not just super-elite ones, so the job prospects are reasonably good for a broad swath of grads. But the crushing nature of student loans may make students feel the need for a higher-paying job more now than they did in past generations. Student loan debt is not a new phenomenon by any means, but I suspect that given today's tuition rates, it's more acute now.

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McLean, Va.: For years the trend has been to treat graduating students like royalty during the recruitment process, then throw them into billable hours pits when they hire on. I doubt that the millennials will have a different experience.

Welcome to the Work World, kids!

Liza Mundy: I agree with your instinct.

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Arlington, Va.: Not to bash the youngsters coming into the job market now, but it is frustrating as a mid to late GenXer to be in the workplace and see new kids coming in and getting opportunities that were never offered to us at their level. I am not saying they don't "deserve" them - I am sure they are very capable - but they should try to understand how the rest of us feel when we see that the rigid rules which kept us from more meaningful work are now loosened to their benefit. Maybe if they tried to understand our position better, the lingering tensions in the workplace, which fuel the negative stereotypes, would be diminished. Oh, and could you copy this for me? Kidding!

Liza Mundy: Lol.

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Herndon, Va.: This is a great article! I can't believe, though, that some companies are actually putting up with the grads' PARENTS getting involved in the job application process (and, apparently, some contacting after a grad is hired). Why would a company put up with this nonsense? And what does it say about the independence of a grad who lets mommy and daddy get involved?

Liza Mundy: That's the same thing the career services people said--they ask companies why they put up with it, but nevertheless, companies do. I think that the reason for the parental involvement varies according to the institution. In the financial sector, they might be hoping to recruit the parent as a client. For a place like the CIA, they might be hoping to correct parents' impressions about the agency. But across the board, big employers seem to be instituting parent days, or considering doing so.

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Bethesda, Md.: Maybe I missed this in the article, but these students all profiled must be coming from well off backgrounds to have all this experiences. Only the Howard student mentioned heavy student loans.

So it continues to be those that come from wealthy families still end up better off? No matter how well you do in school, if you don't have the financial resources to pad up the resume, you don't stand a chance? Volunteering is great, but if you need to pay your tuition, you need a paying summer job, not a jaunt to Ghana to build homes.

Liza Mundy: Actually, others in the article were staggering under student loans as well; I didn't mention it in all cases. It was an issue for the William and Mary student, among others. As I said above, there is no doubt that the student loan problem is huge. On the other hand, at least there are jobs out there to help recent grads chip away at the debt, more so now than for some past generations. Again, there is recruiting going on at all levels, at all colleges and universities, public, private, state, and the article does go into some detail about this.

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Washington, D.C.: I agree 100% with the comment from the Gen-X manager. Today's graduates are capable, but they are also coddled.

Case in point: not one but TWO parents posted on my neighborhood list today looking for internships for their kids. (Why is it June before the kids start looking, and why are these messages from parents?)

As a hiring manager, I look for prospective hires that have a variety of experiences that show that they can navigate situations themselves, without the constant reassurance or parental intrusions.

Liza Mundy: I solemnly promise, now, that I will never post an online inquiry for an internship for my child. I promise. Solemnly.

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Bowie, Md.: I read the article and was completely stunned at the competition. It actually depressed me even more because I have a degree and am still trying to find full time work right now. I guess this article made me realize how much that piece of paper doesn't matter to companies anymore and basically when I went to school that was my main concern was to graduate. I wish I had prepared myself better for this kind of environment.

Liza Mundy: Nothing like a depressing Sunday morning. Sorry.

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Washington, D.C.: While scutwork is still a part of worklife, I would say that with the technology that we have today, there is less of it and it is less boring/dull. Take photocopies for example, these days you can print your document directly to the copier which will collate and staple all the packets for you. Interns don't have to do it any more. Same with printing out memos to put in everyone's mail slots! And what technology doesn't take care of, someone in India might! So I think there is a lot more "interesting work" for entry-level folks these days.

Liza Mundy: Unless you're in India! Which is a whole 'nother topic, I suppose.

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Anonymous: As a millennial, I can deal with the billable hour pits as long as the company demanding the billable hours actually gives me enough work to support demanding I work all the billable hours.

Having to work a billable hour simply because the company says so and not because I have an hour of actual work is no fun.

Liza Mundy: Yes, work is boring, sometimes.

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Washington D.C.: I graduated looonnnggg ago before all this craziness. (Of course, one of these supergrads will no doubt be laying me off in the next five years when I'm fifty.) Do these kids know what they are working so hard for -- what the brass ring is? Does satisfaction factor in or is the need to strive and compete now just almost Pavlovian? In other words, what are they hoping to gain?

Liza Mundy: I think the answer to that will probably unfold, just as it did for most of us.

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Washington, D.C.: Like the girl in your article, I too am a William and Mary grad who is finding life after college as an average person to be daunting. Much like the powerhouse employers, medical schools want the same things (as do law schools, PhD programs, etc). As a decent student who even is published in a highly respected scientific journal I'm finding the journey to get anywhere to be extremely uphill. Any suggestions for the regular folks out there who didn't spend their college years forming their own non-profits? My own research, volunteering, and leadership is looking pretty inferior.

Liza Mundy: I think your perspective is important and I tried to include it. And I think you should do what people have always done: take the job you can get, try to do a good job at it, and work your way up from there. Things will even out, I do think.

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Washington, D.C.: It's great that such efforts are being done to attract these grads, but is an equal level of effort being done to retain them?

Liza Mundy: Retention is something that all employers talk about as a big issue; it's not something I really had the space to go into. But it strikes me that that's what accounts for companies' efforts to meet the expectations of millennials by, among other things, putting them on teams with more experienced people, so they can have a sense of contributing significantly right away.

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New Orleans, La.: In your research, what attention did you pay to class differences and whether this attention to high-powered grads might affect the class divide? After all, your average state school graduate is probably too busy working to eat and pay tuition to start a nonprofit foundation (more likely, they're using the services of one) or spend time traveling abroad.

Liza Mundy: As I said, the recruiting is going on across the board. It's not just for supergrads. And I think their accomplishments are representative of a general level of qualification for students at all levels. Thanks, everybody for writing in; there were lots of responses I did not have time to post, and for that I apologize.

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