Election 2008: Both Sides With Tucker Carlson and Ana Marie Cox

Conservative MSNBC senior campaign correspondent Tucker Carlson and liberal Radar Magazine Washington editor and Time Magazine blogger Ana Marie Cox were online Wednesday, Oct. 8 at 2:15 p.m. ET (and every Wednesday afternoon through Nov. 5) to dissect and debate the issues and latest developments in the 2008 campaigns.

The transcript follows.

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Ana Marie Cox: Hi everyone, sorry I'm late. I'm right now coming to you from a McCain-Palin rally going on in Pennsylvania. It is very very loud.

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St. Paul, Minn.: Hi Ana and Tucker -- thanks for doing this joint chat. There seems to be some discussion today about the town hall setting and how it benefits (or doesn't benefit) the candidates. For someone who was supposedly "owns" that format, I thought John McCain looked uneasy and uncomfortable last night -- like he couldn't find a place to sort of "be" -- and that made it hard for me to focus on what he was saying. Barack Obama does get a little "lecturely" sometimes, but it seemed that his decision to stand in one place and address the questioner worked better. Also, why was McCain so quick to take off at the end instead of schmoozing, as Obama did?

Ana Marie Cox: Well, to be fair, that was not entirely the "town hall" format that McCain does best at -- and it was full of people who are far more "undecided" than those who usually show up at a McCain town hall. (Even a marginally more friendly audience, and perhaps one not so intensely focused on the Important Task Before Them, would have given McCain's terrible jokes the benefit of a chuckle.) And having Obama on the stage did make McCain's entirely typical peregrinations seem less like the movements of an energetic, restless mind than of a jumpy old man. So while I think there are quite a few places where I think McCain stumbled purely on content matters -- "fining" people for not having health care -- I'm not personally that bothered by his physical presentation.

As for leaving early: Well, hm. I don't think he likes the guy much.

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San Francisco: To Ana Marie Cox: What's it like to travel with the Sarahcuda and Hannity?

Ana Marie Cox: We only just picked up Sarahcuda, so we'll see. Hannity seemed mildly confused by the prevalence of actual working journalists. I know how he feels!

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Laurel, Md.: Why are the parties so partisanly divided when their two residential candidates hardly disagreed on any issues last night?

Ana Marie Cox: If it appeared that there was no real disagreement between the two candidates last night, then I think the Obama strategy is working. There are, to my mind, enormous differences between the two candidates. Judges, abortion, the war, legislation for equal pay -- and temperament, too: Obama is unapologetically "cooler" in both the "hip" way and in the "less emotive way." In a person and I friend, I sort of prefer more emotional types like McCain. Not sure if I want that in a president.

As for why we're so mired in partisanship. I think this cycle there's a great deal of pleasure being taken by those on the left in "getting back" at the Republicans. Turnabout is fair play. Or not, as the case may be.

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Ana Marie Cox: Wow, Tucker has a lot of fans.

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Washington: Hey Tucker -- I really miss your show on MSNBC. My news watching actually has plummeted since it went off the air because other shows tend to be a bit more shouty and hysteric. Anyway, what approach do you think the McCain campaign should adopt here on out? This "who is Obama, really" approach really doesn't seem like it will be too successful. I think if he focused on the issues directly, America actually agrees with his positions more so than Obama ... but his presentation just seems to be off. Do you think his campaign can turn their approach around, or do you think this is what we are going to get until Election Day?

Tucker Carlson: I don't think there's a lot McCain can do to turn this around -- it's fundamentally a Democratic year. Still, he has to try, and I agree that his attempts to define Obama as scary mostly have failed. The problem is, Obama doesn't look scary -- he comes off as a fairly decent, moderate guy. Hard to hate, I'd say. The best argument McCain has is about divided government: Do you really want to hand everything over to the Democratic Party? In other words, Obama's fine, if a bit callow, but Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid? Frightening. McCain might get somewhere with that.

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Denver: Is the election over? Is it too early to say that if McCain had to pullout of Michigan, if Florida is in trouble and if poll numbers hold in Ohio, the dominoes falling in Obama's favor? Also, Tucker, what happened to the bow ties?

Ana Marie Cox: It's not over. I know it seems like things can't change, but they sort of always do.

I will let Tucker speak for his ties (hat are around his neck, not to unrepentant terrorists).

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Atlanta: Tucker: How many percentage points does Obama gain from the absurd bias in both the news media and popular culture?

Tucker Carlson: No idea. It's hard to measure. But when pretty much the entire press corps decides it's in love with you -- and not in a platonic way, either -- it can't hurt. Obama ought to be grateful.

Ana Marie Cox: Obviously it can't be measured that clearly. What's more, I think press has "fallen in love" with Obama for the same reasons a (narrow) majority of Americans have, so at the moment I think it's hard to untangle if the positive coverage leads to points or the points and positive coverage stem from the same amazing charisma.

But I don't think you can argue that Obama is not receiving enormous benefit of the doubt from the press, even if the studies show the quantitative amount of negative coverage of Obama is higher.

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Ayers: I'm curious if it is fair to label Obama's judgment suspect, and even go so far as to say that he's sympathetic to terrorists, because he sat on boards with former terrorists. Why wouldn't it be fair to point out that Reagan friend Walter Annenberg also sat on the same board with Obama and Ayers? Clearly Annenberg and the other Republicans on that board hate America and also sympathize with terrorists.

Ana Marie Cox: I think it's fair to call Obama's judgment into questions, but if Ayers is the best example they can come up with, then I'm afraid I'm not that ... afraid. The McCain camp argues -- now at least -- that the problem isn't the connection itself (nice timing on that, what with the Obama push on Keating), but that Obama has been less than open about the nature of the connection.

And it does seem like the Obama campaign has given a few different answers to some of the questions about the Ayers timeline, but how important can the details be if the issue as whole doesn't seem that relevant?

Tucker Carlson: Ayers is a creep, and it's infuriating that he works at a taxpayer-supported school. I'd like to see the University of Illinois lose its federal funding because they hired him. But his connections to Obama? They don't move me. The Rev. Wright on the other hand is an utterly legitimate topic, and revealing of Obama's character. The McCain people are afraid of being called racist, though, so they won't mention it in public. Which is absurd.

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Wheaton, Md.: To Tucker -- what do you think McCain's real feelings are about Obama? Does he have as much contempt for him as much as it appears he does?

Tucker Carlson: Yes. McCain's not impressed.

Ana Marie Cox: I'll just add here that in following McCain for a year and a half, I've seen his attitude toward Obama go from "bemused" to "annoyed" to "offended." I still don't think he personally dislikes the guy -- he is probably angrier at the idea of Obama, and the idea that the public could choose someone he sees as fundamentally not ready over him.

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Portland, Ore.: Ana, I know you are with McCain. Can you ask him directly, on camera if possible, for the straight talk on why he thinks Sarah Palin can be president of the United States on inauguration day?

Ana Marie Cox: You have no idea how much I'd love to do that.

But I have not spoken directly to the guy since August.

There is a cut-out of him on the plane, however, and I could ask that -- and get the same response I would from him.

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Jackson, Mich.: Tucker, you once commented to Joe Scarborough on MSNBC that Barack Obama will either win big or lose big in this election. You also mentioned that the media will have to examine its role in this election. Could you go into detail about what you meant? What are you thinking?

Tucker Carlson: Candidates like Obama who come out of nowhere tend either to ride the wave until Election Day, or wind up crushed on the rocks when it crests before shore. (Metaphor alert! Sorry.) The former's looking more likely this year. As for the press, they've taken sides. That's wrong. They should be ashamed, and when this is all over, many of them will be.

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Rolla, Mo.: Ana Marie, are you in Bethlehem, Pa.? Did the guy doing the introductions refer to Barack Hussein Obama? Is anyone in the crowd foaming at the mouth yet? Pitchforks? Ropes?

Ana Marie Cox: I see no foam, no pitchforks, just a lot of double-knit fabrics and American flags. Which all could be used to fashion ropes, I suppose...

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Chicago: Does McCain's residential mortgage bailout proposal appear to be gaining steam on the campaign trail?

Tucker Carlson: I hope not. It's insane. The federal government is going to bail out homeowners by purchasing their mortgages and lowering their monthly payments? In other words, McCain is claiming we have a right to live in houses we paid too much for. Where exactly did this right come from? Who's going to pay for it?

Ana Marie Cox: I haven't seen any evidence of this -- accept that his confidence in the plan and the way it sounds like, well, a free lunch, seem to appeal.

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Alexandria, Va.: Is it just me or is McCain channeling Bob Dole circa 1996?

Tucker Carlson: If I close my eyes, I can hear Dole chanting "where's the outrage?" It's depressing.

Ana Marie Cox: I think McCain, at this point, is probably angrier.

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St. Louis: I am unable to work up any enthusiasm for either McCain or Obama. My friends and relatives say that my intention to vote for Ralph Nader is a "waste" of my vote. I say that at least my "wasted" vote will count more visibly when the numbers are published and eventually recorded in various political almanacs. Any thoughts on this?

Tucker Carlson: Vote your conscience, I say. A vote is an endorsement that implicates you in whatever administration you help elect. You shouldn't be ashamed for supporting a candidate who won't win, or for opting out entirely. If more people tried to do the right rather than the effective thing, it might be a better country.

Ana Marie Cox: Maybe Tucker and I should find some real political opposites to argue with -- I agree with him on this, too. I even voted for Nader myself in 2000. Strategic voting bothers me; I think this would be a healthier democracy if -- at least at some level of national politics -- people didn't have to compromise. We'd probably end up with more parties and, thus (ironically) more compromise. So, yeah, vote your conscience. And hope other people do as well.

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Cairo, Ill.: Why isn't the media pressuring Sarah Palin harder to have a press conference? The McCain line is that we don't know who Obama is, but that's far more true of Palin. How can anyone even consider putting her in the White House if she can't handle a little open engagement with the press?

Ana Marie Cox: I would welcome suggestions as to how the press might pressure her harder. They are not quiet on this front. And as for how voters can consider putting her in the White House anyway, well, I'm not sure if I trust the press to do the vetting any more than I do McCain. And "handling open engagement with the press" is in itself not much of an indication of fitness to govern.

I think the problem here isn't that Palin is closed off from questions from the press, it is that she's closed off from questions from anyone. And it's not that she's inexperienced, even, it's that she doesn't capable of improving with experience.

Tucker Carlson: So the press has been too nice to Sarah Palin? What country do you live in?

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Seattle: At what point does McCain give up and start thinking about ways he can help some of his Senate buddies survive the elections? Are we going to see Palin rallying the base on behalf of Gordon Smith in Eastern Oregon soon?

Tucker Carlson: Giving up won't help his senate buddies. That's the point. If he were doing better, they would be too.

Ana Marie Cox: Agree with Tucker on this one. Also, and I'm not kidding here: He was a POW. By which I mean, his personality is such that I don't think "quitting" in any form is an option.

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Tacoma, Wash.: Why is offshore drilling such a winning issue when experts have stated that it will not solve our energy problems? I'm a bit disgusted that the Democrats had to cave to Republicans on such a failed policy stance. Why aren't Americans challenged to embrace a radical change in energy policy that countries like Denmark already successfully have tackled?

Ana Marie Cox: It's a winning issue because, I think, Americans like to fix things now. Even if the immediate fixing ultimately doesn't solve the problem any quicker than holding off for a better fix would.

It is important to take action!

See also: Invading Iraq.

And, hey, I hear the coral reefs will welcome us with flowers!

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What if?: Would McCain be as hacked off if Hillary Clinton were his opponent? Is it the idea that he has a credible challenger facing him or that the competitor is Barack Obama that makes him seem so crotchety?

Ana Marie Cox: Yes and it is because it is Obama. He knows and respects Hillary. As creepy as it sounds, I've even heard that they have a mildly flirtatious relationship.

He would be a much happier warrior -- and feel better about the future of the country -- if he were running against Hillary. I have had senior advisers admit (privately) exactly as much.

Tucker Carlson: Exactly, I've heard the same thing. And you can see why McCain feels that way. Obama's a very smart and impressive guy, but he hasn't actually done anything, other than run an effective presidential campaign.

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Marion, Ill.: I'm finding the rabid responses of the McCain/Palin crowds to the campaign's efforts to paint Obama as a scary terrorist sympathizer really disturbing. Do McCain and Palin realize the kind of hatred they're inciting? Will the media hold them accountable if they continue this line of attack? What the hell happened to "Country First"?

Ana Marie Cox: The McCain people say that if they're held responsible for the crazies that turn out to their town halls, then Obama should be held accountable for "friends" like Ayers. I think that logic is good, but their conclusion sucks: I don't think either guy should be held accountable for their "supporters." There are shades of gray (or black or brown) here, of course, and it probably wouldn't hurt McCain/Palin (and it might keep someone else from getting hurt) to vocally (and literally) distance themselves from the kinds of statements that have gotten shouted out recently. This is something the old McCain probably would have done from the stage.

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Ana Marie Cox: Okay, I have to duck out early. The protective pool calls!

Thanks for coming, see you next week and sorry for being short!

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I'd like to see the University of Illinois lose its federal funding for hiring him: On what legal grounds? If he's tenured, he only can be terminated for cause, following due process, because tenure is a Constitutionally-protected property right. The criteria are incompetence, neglect of duty, insubordination, and that catch-all "moral turpitude" (which has to rise to a pretty strong level). If Ayers is not tenured then he's employed under contract, probably for anywhere between one and three years at a time, and so is only entitled to reasonable notice of nonrenewal (with advance time a function of how long one has been employed there).

Tucker Carlson: Tenure's a joke, a dodge and a cover for mediocrities like many college professors. People with real jobs don't get tenure. It's ludicrous and embarrassing, and I'm amazed that anyone still defends it.

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Vacaville, Calif.: Tucker, Ana, what to you think of all the catch phrases that the Republican candidates are using -- "maverick," "Joe Six-Pack," "darn right" and so on? Think the public is a little tired of hearing them, and that it sounds phony...

Tucker Carlson: Of course they're tired and phony and hackneyed, and I'm absolutely tired of hearing them -- as well as every other sort of crypto-populist pandering from both sides. But they're not racist codewords, as some have claimed. When everything's racist, nothing is. At some point, Obama supporters may regret devaluing the term.

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El Paso, Texas: Do you think we could get Michelle Obama and Cindy McCain to debate? Who do you think would win?

Tucker Carlson: I don't even like to think about it. In general I'd like to see a whole lot less of candidates' spouses, all of them.

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Portland, Ore.: Why would Obama release a (really, really) long ad bringing up McCain's involvement in the Savings & Loan crisis 20 years ago? With his current poll numbers, it seems completely unneeded and could hurt him.

Tucker Carlson: I agree. It seemed weird and touchy, and also boring. Who'd watch all 20 minutes? Seriously.

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New York: Would you agree that perhaps the Democrats should learn from the lessons of 2000 and 2004 -- be careful what you wish for? My point is that the ridiculous right thought Bush would be their savior on Earth. If the Democrats think that Obama will right all wrongs, they should think again. On both sides of the aisle, our politicians continue to show utter contempt for the people they are supposed to represent.

Tucker Carlson: Yes! Such a good point. The problem with running as Jesus is you have to govern like him too, and that's impossible. There are going to be a lot of disillusioned Starbucks baristas out there about midway through Obama's first term, I predict. Maybe the campaign should start preparing supporters for the fact that Obama is fallible.

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Cheltenham, U.K.: What did both of you think of the Sean Hannity/Gibbs exchange regarding the Ayers affair?

Tucker Carlson: I missed it, but you've convinced me to search YouTube for the clip. Congratulations if you work for Fox PR. Job well done.

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Arlington, Va.: Tucker, if Obama were elected which former president would he be most like? I think Jimmy Carter, because he hasn't really shown any leadership on any issue, he waits for long periods before he makes up his mind (a week on the financial crisis, four days on the Soviet/Georgia issue), and when he does take a stand it doesn't seem to be a strong one.

Tucker Carlson: You may be right. I hope not. One thing is for sure: Obama never could be as sour, sanctimonious and nasty as Carter was. It's not possible.

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Washington: Tucker, what's Pat Buchanan like? I like to think of him as my crazy Republican Uncle (if I were a Republican and Irish, which I am not). Why doesn't Pat have his own show on MSNBC -- I know I would watch!

Tucker Carlson: Pat is one of the all-time great guys. Ask anyone at MSNBC, not exactly a hotbed of Buchananism. You won't hear a bad word about Pat. He ought to have a show, I agree.

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Maple Glen, Pa.: Do you think the Republicans, knowing this wasn't going to be their year, decided to throw McCain under the bus (they don't really like him anyway), figuring that in 2012 they can nominate Jeb Bush or someone else to take over for Obama, whom they hope won't be able to clean up the mess he's walking into?

Tucker Carlson: I wouldn't give Republicans credit for that level of organization, but it's not a crazy idea. When was the last time a Republican presidential ticket won without a Nixon or a Bush on it? 1928.

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Burke, Va.: Do either of you believe the bailout plan will work? Will it get worse before it gets better?

Tucker Carlson: Not working so far. I'd hate to think that Congress once again used a national crisis as an excuse for a power grab, but that may be what happened.

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Bronx, N.Y.: There might be a whole bunch of Starbucks baristas who like Obama now, but my experience is that the elite left preferred people like Edwards and even Kucinich. They like Obama now, but for more than 50 percent of the Democratic primary votes cast, remember -- he's a second choice.

Tucker Carlson: Good point, but in the end most partisan voters are obedient little robots, and they've climbed aboard and not looked back.

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Fair Lawn, N.Y.: Tucker, as Bush is fond of saying, this election isn't your first rodeo. I remember you did an interview with Bush before he was president, so I assume you were covering the race in 1999-2000, and my question is this: Hasn't the media misinformed the public about the race that McCain ran back then? Sure, he was the victim of dirty tricks in South Carolina -- we hear about that constantly -- but how about the slimy tactics he used against Bush in Michigan (calling him anti-Catholic) and running dishonest ads against Bush that he had to withdraw, among other things?

All we hear about is how unprecedented and shocking it all is that a noble, almost holy man like McCain would run this type of campaign against Obama ... but please, let's be grownups. The facts back then don't support the media narrative -- this is the type of candidate he's always been, and politics ain't beanbag. You agree?

Tucker Carlson: I mostly agree. I covered McCain throughout the primaries that year. Bush wasn't nice to him in South Carolina, but that's not why he lost -- McCain lost because he attacked the Republican Party in speeches to Republican primary voters (and did other weird things, like hanging a sign that said "Burn It Down!" behind the stage at campaign events). I disagree that McCain currently is running a particularly nasty campaign, The press is claiming that because they support Obama and they're offended, but get some perspective -- it's pretty tame.

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Los Angeles: How do you stand on illegal immigration, and do you think that the price we are paying for it is too high?

Tucker Carlson: If the economy gets much worse, you'll see a profound change of opinion on many topics, including immigration (and global warming). The price will seem a lot higher when the unemployment rate rises.

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Most worthless question of the day: If the election were held today, who would win: President Bush or O.J. Simpson?

Tucker Carlson: It'd be close, though neither of them would be available to serve.

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Washington: Isn't part of the Obama phenomenon that voting for him is a way for the nation to collectively respond to the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow? In other words, people want him to win because of the euphoric feeling they will have on Wednesday morning knowing they were part of something historic and that few of us thought we would live to see. An Obama win will make us feel awfully good about ourselves.

Tucker Carlson: Exactly. We hear a lot about "the effect of race on this election," meaning the effect of white racists who refuse to support Obama because of his color. But it seems to me there are at least as many (and where I live, far more) white people who will vote for Obama at least partly because he's black. Supporting him makes them feel good about themselves, if not morally superior to the rest of us. I'm not sure that's a noble reason to vote for someone. But the point is, race plays a far more complicated role in this election than you'd know from reading most newspaper columns.

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Tucker Carlson: Thanks a lot for having me. That was fun as hell. See you next week.

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