Election 2008: Both Sides With Tucker Carlson and Ana Marie Cox

Tucker Carlson and Ana Marie Cox
MSNBC Political Correspondent; Time Magazine Blogger
Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:00 PM

Conservative MSNBC political correspondent and Daily Beast contributor Tucker Carlson and liberal Time Magazine blogger and Daily Beast contributor -- Ana Marie Cox were online Wednesday, Nov. 19 to dissect and debate the latest developments in politics.

The transcript follows.

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Ana Marie Cox: Greetings, fellow junkies. My name is Ana and I am a politicoholic.

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Washington, DC: You're back!

Ana Marie Cox: Yep, Tucker and I signed on to keep playing pattycake through the inauguration or until the Georgia Senate race is decided -- because obviously, after that, no one will have any need to discuss politics any more.

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Miami, FL: Franken or what's his name? After the recount and litigation are over, who will win?

Tucker Carlson: I'd bet on Franken. Not because he's ahead in the recount. He's not. But because he's one of the nastiest, most tenacious people I have ever met. The guy who wants it more usually wins.

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Washington DC: Ana- Any chance we can see you as guest host on Maddow this week?

Ana Marie Cox: Aw, you all (you and the whole one other person that asked about guest hosting the RMS) are very sweet: Rach is actually back tomorrow night so your withdrawal symptoms should not get too bad. And I will be a guest-guest tomorrow night as well. (Tonight: McCain Traveling Press Reunion Happy Hour: "We're not in the tank, we drink it dry.")

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Columbia, MD: Without thinking: will H R Clinton become Secretary of State? Yes or no?

Tucker Carlson: Yes. So she's going to let her husband screw up her career plans once again? I doubt it. And actually, I hope she gets the job. Given the range of potential choices, I think she's a pretty good pick. She's the toughest person in the world, for one thing, and that helps. And she's ferocious. Would she be more effective than John Kerry or Bill Richardson? Come on. Of course. Go Hillary.

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Yonkers, NY : I've been telling everybody at my poker game for the last two years that the GOP was doomed unless it cut loose the fundamentalist loonies, similar to the way that the Dems expelled the Henry Wallace lefties in 1948 (usually I'm told at this point that its time to shut up and deal) but I see that Kathleen Parker, one of those townhall right wing scribes, has stolen my thunder today: GOP, cut out the armband religion holy rollers. She also says that the GOP Party Establishment feels the same way, but won't say so in public. What do you think? Okay, it's my turn to deal.

Tucker Carlson: Good afternoon. Thanks for having me. Just about every college-educated, pro-choice voter in America, including every single person who works in the media, agrees with you. I'm not so sure. Religious conservatives are the core of the Republican base. The party would be even less popular without them. But more to the point, I hate how elites on both sides sneer at evangelicals. It's too easy. I grew up in La Jolla and live in Washington, so it's not as if I've had a huge amount of first-hand contact with them. But from what I can tell they're generally sincere, decent people, certainly more honorable than your average network television executive. I don't think it's fair to blame them for all the GOP's problems.

Ana Marie Cox: I actually had drinks with Kathleen last night -- she had just turned in her column and was preparing for the barrage of bile that did in fact come forth today. We sort of wound up fine-tuning her thesis a bit: The problem is not evangelicals, it's social conservative evangelicals who see social conservatism as their PRIMARY political point of entry.

[I've made this point before here, stop now if the tune sounds familiar.] Younger evangelicals -- who started to make their voices heard with Huck -- have a very different coloration than those currently leading the political faction of their church. For them, issues like abortion are just PART of a wider, almost civil-rights like approach to "social conservatism," which would also include environmentalism and using the machinery of government to address poverty and (now a very hot topic) usury. Those guys could be very useful in rebuilding the party -- the problem is they don't necessarily identify as Republican. And don't necessarily see electoral politics as the way to get things done. They are more like -- ahem -- community organizers.

All this is to say, I understand what Tucker is saying about liberal elites (and conservatives elites) sneering at evangelicals -- and part of the problem is that they don't realize that "evangelicals" are not, in fact, all alike.

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Alexandria, VA: Tucker,

do you think your buddy Chris Matthews will run for the Senate in Pennsylvania and if so how do you like his chances?

Tucker Carlson: I don't know, though I hope so. What a tremendous story. I can promise you that if he does run, I'll write the definitive (or at least the longest) magazine piece on it.

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D.C.: When the Supreme Court appointed Bush President, he ignored his lack of a mandate and proceeded to name hard-right conservatives to every level of government.

Obama won by the largest margin in 20 years, and it seems like he's going to ignore his actual mandate and completely screw the progressives who elected him.

Emanuel as CoS, Clinton at State, Holder at Justice, Summers at Treasury - this is what we worked for? I'm so angry I want to scream

Ana Marie Cox: Scream! Please scream! I think it is never too late for progressives to realize that Obama is not their savior, he is simply the guy who they elected. He works for YOU now... and for me, and Tucker, and Rush and everyone else. But just because he's awesome and cool and getting a puppy doesn't mean he shouldn't be held accountable for the promises he made. That said, I don't think Rahm or Summers are deal-breakers. They are (and maybe this is your point) deal-makers.

Clinton, on the other hand... makes me grit my teeth to even think about it, if only because it's the most cravenly selfish thing I've seen a politician do since Dick Cheney made himself VP. Clinton could be a great senator, a completely competent even outstanding Sec at HHS... perhaps even Homeland Security, given her time on the Armed Service committee. But she has as little foreign policy experience now as she did then, which is to say, SLIGHTLY MORE than Obama. And she knows this, yet it's clear she won't consider "settling" for any other position (as if the Cabinet were Homecoming court. Jesus). So does Obama, obv, which makes me slightly disappointed in his even offering it to her -- though it's not entirely clear at this point that he did.

I was looking forward to No Drama, then she came along..

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DC: What is the likelihood of Powell assuming a position somewhere in the Obama White House or at the lead of an Agency? Obama said on 60 minutes absolutely 1 Republican will be on appointed to the Cabinet- Powell could fit the bill. Or perhaps - let the passionate Senator from Arizona become the VA #1...

Tucker Carlson: I asked Powell about this yesterday. No comment, though he did smile. Education secretary is the rumor. I wouldn't be surprised. I'd bet against Chuck Hagel getting a cabinet post, not that I have any inside information.

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Alexandria, VA: Ana:

Are you going to Iowa to watch Bobby Jindal test the waters and genuflect before the "oogedy-boogedy branch of the GOP?"

Based on your experiences covering the last two presidential campaigns, is the situation described in The Boys on the Bus still the operative reality? I realize blogs have changed the tone of coverage somewhat, and they have certainly obliterated the idea of the news cycle, but aside from public complaining about how the Obama plane stinks, is anything substantively different?

Ana Marie Cox: First of all, the only person who complained about the Obama plane "stinking" was Dean Reynolds, who was widely (at least by me) mocked.

Second, I'm not sure about heading to Iowa this week but I am steeling myself for heading out there long before I'd like to (i.e., late 2011).

As for the Boys on the Bus aspect of the whole thing: A major difference, I think, is that We Are All Bloggers Now. Every OTR, every town hall, every presser is mined for a postable nugget. This creates a vvvvv rushed mentality and makes it hard to get a sense of the campaign as a whole... it also can mean that narratives solidify too rapidly to ever really change. One example: Reporters were so hot to feed into the "people at Palin rallies are angry" meme, I think they (including me) missed writing up one of the stranger aspects of Palin events: the sheer number of Down syndrome children, and what the events meant to their parents. I interviewed a few of them for a story that I wound up not finishing (sorry!), and was struck by 1) the sheer amount of effort involved in preparing such a child for a huge, excitement filled-event and then KEEPING THEM AMUSED for the hours they had to wait once they got there and 2) that this was almost entirely apolitical. it was about just seeing another mother that shares their struggle. Don't get me wrong: I am thankful that Palin isn't VP, she seems sketchy on a lot of levels, but the stories I heard from those families might have been good to get out, too.

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New York : Why are all the conservatives being so damn charming to Hillary all of a sudden? This Imus guy on the radio was practically slobbering the other day, and one of his patented bits back in the day used to be an uproarious song about her menstrual cycles. Is this enthusiasm genuine, or are all you guys still in shock?

Tucker Carlson: I can't speak for all conservatives, and I don't think Don Imus qualifies as one anyway. (He's unpleasant, not conservative. There's a difference.) But personally, I started to respect Hillary when she stopped whining about sexism (barf) and started running a good, tough campaign. She was losing, the press and all the cool kids had undisguised contempt for her, but she bulled forward undeterred. Impressive, I thought.

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NYC: Ana: Is Mitt Romney really as skinny as you say he is?

Ana Marie Cox: OMG CHICKEN LEGS. Totally. I saw him in a hotel lobby as he was coming in after a run (before the Hofstra debate) and he looked like a human bobble doll.

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NY: Tucker - why is it that you're so much funnier (and I find you infinitely more relateable despite my dissimilar political leanings) on these chats than on TV? Is there a Kennedy v. Nixon parallel here?

Tucker Carlson: Because I have one of my witty assistants do these chats. On television, I have to do it myself.

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Washington, DC: Tucker, with Waxman slated to be in control of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, do you believe there will even be an energy debate or will Obama's plan fly through that Committee unchecked?

Tucker Carlson: It's hard to imagine Obama getting much resistance from fellow Democrats, at first anyway. Even Republicans are likely to give him a pass for a while. Obama's problem over the next two years will be saying no to overreaching by Pelosi and Reid. Bush could never control his allies in Congress. Obama will have Rahm for that.

Ana Marie Cox: And watching Rahm take care of that -- given what Obama calls his "speech impediment," especially -- will be great fun for us all.

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New York: You'll have to pardon me, but I get a chuckle out of the Tucker Carlsons/Bill Kristols of the world talking about "East Coast Elites," as if they had spent even one day of their lives as anything but.

Tucker Carlson: If you ever catch me pretending to be anything other than what I obviously am, feel free to sound the alarm. But you never will, because I never do. That doesn't mean I share the same views as everyone else in northwest Washington, though.

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Liberalland: Tucker, why do you think Chuck Hagel won't get a job in the Obama administration? I actually kind of like him, though what I know about him is based on a profile in the New Yorker.

Tucker Carlson: I like Hagel too, a lot, and I agree with him on most things. But he's too independent and hard to predict. If he disagreed with Obama, I doubt he'd think twice before resigning at a press conference. If you were Obama, would you want to take that risk? Probably not.

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Ana Marie Cox: URGENT UPDATE: I am not going to be on the Maddow Show tomorrow. I have been bumped to Monday. Set your Tivos, rotten fruit stash accordingly.

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Reston, Va.: I once saw Newt Gingrich playing ping pong at a beach club wearing shorts and sandals. It was a disturbing sight.

Tucker Carlson: Did you challenge him to a game? No?

Coward.

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Chicago, Illinois: Did you see the SNL Biden skit the other night? It was pretty spot on, especially about not being able to blink. How much botox has Biden had? Any good before and after shots?

Ana Marie Cox: Geez, mixing Botox and hair plugs sounds like a potentially dangerous beauty cocktail. Perhaps that's why they're considering bringing in Clinton? So she can step in if something goes wrong?

And, yes, speaking of things going wrong: I loved the Biden sketch. I, for one, cannot wait to cover (as he calls it) "The Biden Administration."

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Williamsburg, Brooklyn: Ana: You have said in the past that Nixon Agonistes is one of your favorite books. Why is it that no one writes with Wills' kind of intense new journalism on the political campaigns anymore?

Ana Marie Cox: Well, personally (to the extent I dare to compare myself to Wills at his best): I don't know how anyone ever found the time. That blogger mentality (MUST POST NOW!) I referred to earlier makes it difficult to step back and think through narrative arc of a campaign, and there are few outlets that have the kind of space one would need to unpack the characters that make campaigns so compelling up close. I have been thinking about writing a novel based on the McCain campaign (yeah, yeah, old dog, no new tricks, sorry) just to TRY to get at the interiors Wills described so well when it came to Nixon. I don't think I could do timely enough to be a quick post-election book, and I know that it would be difficult to gain the access, post-campaign especially, Wills had to do as completely non fiction. There would be a lot of guessing. Educated guessing, but guessing.

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NYC: Let me help "New York" a bit further:

What Tucker refuses to say is that Hillary is genuinely right-wing in her approach to foreign policy. Tucker doesn't want to say it because there are still legions of right-wing imbeciles who like to refer to Hillary as "liberal."

Tucker Carlson: I'm a little confused by your comment (who are you mad at?), but let me make the obvious point: I admired the way Hillary ran the final few months of her campaign. I agreed with almost nothing she said. You're right that on foreign policy she's basically a neocon, as is Obama, as is Bush. All three believe that the US has a moral obligation to intervene in order to improve conditions in foreign countries, and all believe that democracy is always and everywhere a panacea. And as far as I'm concerned they're utterly wrong on both counts. But Hillary is awfully tough, and I respect her for that.

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Staunton, Va.: What's the deal with McCain and Obama palling around together? We never saw this post Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush II -- I mean, why is there such an effort to put the two together like there has to be some consolation prize for McCain? Is this part of the new "Socialism?" :)

Ana Marie Cox: "Palling around together." Quite the evocative phrase, I think the key here is that Obama has no interest in dragging out the harsh words and ill will that characterized the campaign. Neither does McCain. And they both realize that they can use each other to get certain goal accomplished. I imagine, if anything, McCain will enjoy working with Obama more than he did with Bush. Bush never reached out to him with the same seriousness that Obama just did.

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Denver, Colorado: Given that the Democrats will have 58-59 seats in the Senate, how likely is it that Specter, Snowe, or Collins will cross the aisle on certain issues to force cloture? Will McCain be a player in this? What about Coleman if he does win his race?

Ana Marie Cox: I think Coleman is less reliable when it comes to appointments especially but Specter and the rest I see as "convinceables."

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23112: AMC, I'm disappointed that you didn't finish that story about the Down's kids at the rallies. Why didn't you get to it?

Ana Marie Cox: Well, the problem is that I started it on Nov. 2 or so. But I've been thinking of revisiting it -- what do those families do now? Is there a future political awakening for that group, something independent of Palin? That kind of thing. If I can get an editor interested... who knows?

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Savannah, GA: Uh, guys. The name of this chat is "Election 2008: Both Sides". I love this chat, but don't you at least have to come up with a new name? Or will we all be stuck in a version of "Groundhog Day" where we discuss the same election every week? (Could be worse, I guess. You guys are at least as entertaining as that movie was.)

washingtonpost.com: Oh, good point. This chat is also in transition with a new producer. What do you want to call it?? - Elizabeth

Ana Marie Cox: Oh, jeez, this is an excellent point! We could probably go with the generic but descriptive, "Politics: Both Sides" but I also embrace the idea of change. Would be nice to have a name that also acknowledged that I am kind of a "bad" liberal (I did not fully denounce John McCain! I still like the guy, even!) and Tucker is, to say the least, an unorthodox R. Maybe "Neither Side" is more descriptive.

Tucker Carlson: How about "One Side"? Let's not even aspire to balance. Or maybe "Off Sides," where every comment is foul. Let me think about about it.

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Bethesda MD: Why is it taking so long for the Illinois governor to choose a replacement for Obama? What processes does he have to go through? Is there a time limit he has to meet?

Tucker Carlson: I think he's got other worries right now, like the possibility of going to prison.

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Baltimore, Md.: Am I being racist if I am bitter and angry that Obama Barack won't begin criminal proceedings against Bush and Rummy for their illegal war for oil in Iraq ... or am I just an angry, bitter leftist?

Ana Marie Cox: I think you're being angry, not bitter -- I mean, you know your own heart and all but what's there to be "bitter" about given it was clear Obama would never do that to begin with? Was I watching a different election that I never saw Obama, like, go full Hamsher on us?

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Washington, DC: As journalists, don't you think it would have been more fun to cover a McCain/Palin adminstration? Especially Palin. Malapropisms galore. Shooting deer from Marine One. Snow machine races on the Mall....

Ana Marie Cox: Let me get this straight: You don't think the Biden/Rahm administration will be fun? Curse words! Outrageous claims! Detailed revenge scenarios! AMTRAK!

Well, maybe not so much Amtrak.

Tucker Carlson: I'm hoping Ana's right. At the moment it feels like those first weeks after 9-11: Irony is dead, will it ever be OK to laugh again?, etc... We're treating the whole Obama thing with deadly earnestness and solemnity. At some point, the tone will lighten. I can't wait.

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Virginia: No matter who won, I am going to miss Barney and Miss Beasley. They are two of the best things about the Bush administration, and have so much character. Sigh.

Ana Marie Cox: I've been telling everyone worried about Cute-Withdrawal between Barney and the New First Puppy to stay tuned to the Shiba Inu puppy cam (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/shiba-inu-puppy-cam). As a friend of mine said, "It's internet Klonopin."

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Detroit, Michigan: What gives with the Democrats and Lieberman? The Democrats don't need him caucusing with them anymore. He has been a thorn in the Democratic party for several years. He ardently supported Bush's war policy, ran against the Conneticut nominee of his party as an independent, supported McCain, and made critical comments of Obama. We don't need to see him as the "reasonable" Democrat on Fox News anymore. I truly do not see what the Democrats have to gain by letting him keep his key committee chairmanship and continuing to caucus with them.

Ana Marie Cox: Yes, they do need him -- even if (especially if!) they Ds don't manage to get a "filibuster proof majority," they'll want to make getting a 60-vote block on filibusters as easy as possible. Would you rather want to peel off 1 R or 2 when a Supreme Court nominee comes up that the righties hate?

What's more, Lieberman has been pretty reliably liberal on most social and domestic issues even when he was a McCainiac, and Obama's administration will, it looks like, be dealing with hard domestic questions first. And, lastly, when people say "politics aint beanbag," it doesn't just mean you get hit hard, it means you have to get UP after you get hit, and when the game is over you don't cry and stamp your feet because they other side played rough. Obama is giving Lieberman a chance to act like an adult, let's hope he makes the most of it.

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New York: Tucker and Ana: Why do journalists drink so much?

Tucker Carlson: For the same reason dogs lick themselves: Because they can. It's one of the perks of not having a real job.

Ana Marie Cox: I have to go with Tucker on this one. If someone had told me that being a working ("working") journalist would allow me to drink during the day, I don't know why I would have bothered with blogging.

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Washington: Are you guys buying this team of rivals hooey? Every time there's a new president, the media predicts a member of the party out of power will get a cabinet spot.

They said it with Clinton, didn't happen. People even said the same thing about W - like he'd want to send a Democrat anywhere but Gitmo. Now they're saying it again.

And how much should Obama want to emulate Lincoln? The guy was so unloved during his tenure that he could barely find someone to join him at Ford's theater.

Ana Marie Cox: I think Tucker and I are the real team of rivals in town. Also you mentioning it means we all get to drink. And then I mentioned it, so drink again.

If the truth came out about "the team of rivals" (and I think your point is very much close to it) there would be less drinking so... SHHHHH.

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Williamsburg, Brooklyn: Tucker: Do you think liberals are generally immature people?

Tucker Carlson: I'd never generalize like that (and keep cordial relations with my screamingly liberal neighbors). Just kidding. I honestly try not to think in those terms (all liberals, all evangelicals, all Brazilians, etc...) Better to imagine that people who disagree with you are just as decent, but have reached separate conclusions. Mostly that's true I think.

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The People's Republic of Brooklyn: Ana: You have a great sense of humor about politics. What are other blogs we might not have heard about that are funny?

Ana Marie Cox: Oh, oh! Yay a chance to promote my friends and my heroes! First off: Jason Linkins at Huffington Post. One of the five funniest people on the internet, I tell you no lie. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-news/reporting/jason-linkins

Then, well, Twitter counts as the internet, no? As an inveterate Tweeter myself, I've come to really admire those who can jam together commentary and reporting and humor in 140 characters or less. If you're open to breezy text bulletins sent to your cell at sometimes odd hours, I'd recommend signing up and following these journalist/texters: Mike Madden (Salon), John Dickerson (Slate), Comedy Centrals "The Indecider," John Hodgman and, of c, Rachel Maddow.

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23112: How about "Sides Intertwined," or is that going to get our hosts in trouble with their spouses?

Tucker Carlson: Steamy. I like it.

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Getting ahead: Which quality is most valuable for getting ahead in Washington: charm, tenacity or deviousness?

Tucker Carlson: I can only pick one? If so, I'd say charm. Or put another way, Bill Clinton got elected president. Hillary didn't.

Ana Marie Cox: Two out of three ain't bad.

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Eagan Minnesota: Does the election of Barack Obama with a pick up of 20 US House seats and at least 8 seats in the US Senate mean that America can now be view as having an electorate that is "center-left" and no longer "center-right" ?

washingtonpost.com: Discussion: Tod Lindberg on his Outlook article, "The Electorate's Left Turn" (Nov. 17)

Ana Marie Cox: That's a great question, but I think that the first click left from "center right" is just, "center," no? The upsets in 06 had a lot to do with running "blue dog" candidates and while Obama personally is undoubtedly "left-left," he ran (in the general) a center-left campaign, and his actions so far all scream "pragmatic." Which is to say, I don't think he'll be taking anyone's guns away and, more to the point of your question, people want to keep their guns.

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Reston, Va: Ana and Tucker,

On the one hand, I'm glad Obama is surrounding himself with experienced, moderate Clinton-ites, but there's a petty, mean part of me that can't help but snicker at all the supporters who thought he was going to come riding into on a white horse, wave a magic wand and usher in an era of peace and prosperity never before seen in Washington.

Should I be ashamed of myself? More importantly, how much do you see Washington REALLY changing under an Obama administration?

Tucker Carlson: It's hard to know what will happen when Obama fails to make the lame walk and the blind see. In the short term, his followers will blame Bush. But after that? They'll either become totally disillusioned and find other supreme leader, or they'll accept reality and get a much-needed lesson on the inablity of politics to solve most basic human problems.

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There Has to be Joke: An white grandmother, a Mormon, a Jew and a cool black father walk into a bar...

Say what you will, complain as much as you want, Pelosi, Reed, Rahm and Obama are not your grandfather's government.

The progressives think there is not enough diversity, the right thinks all liberals are the same, but I think there are true differences between these people that will make for some interesting political times.

Ana Marie Cox: I don't really have an answer to this, I just agree that there needs to be a punchline to that set up. Let's just hope it isn't, "And they re-ratified the Patriot Act."

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Portland, Oregon: Hmmm, how about "Overtime"?

Tucker Carlson: We'd have to charge double for that chat. I don't think management would go for it. Speaking of, our time is up. Thanks for a totally entertaining hour.

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Brooklyn, NY: Ana: In 2004 I remember you saying after the election was pretty much called for Bush that the heartbreak that younger voters feel will prepare us for life (or something like that). I thought that was pretty beautiful and poetic and in the moment. Do you think Obama's victory is a sort of vindication of the 2004 Rock-the-Vote hooplah (Diddy, Affleck, Cusack, etc.)?

Ana Marie Cox: Well, clearly, this victory will set up impossible expectations and likely lead to generational ennui in 3 years or so. On the plus side: Perhaps some good bands and/or novels will come out of it!

And, with that, I must bid adieu. Thanks for coming. See you next week.

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