Science: Dogs and Envy

Washington Post staff writer Rob Stein and Zsofia Viranyi from the Konrad Lorenz Institute for Evolution and Cognition Research in Altenberg, Austria, were online Monday, Dec. 15 at 11 a.m. ET to discuss a new study that shows evidence that dogs can experience envy. Until now, it was only thought that humans and other primates displayed feelings of envy.

Read the article: Dogs Feel Envy -- or at Least Grasp Inequity When It Comes to Treats.

The transcript follows.

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Rob Stein: Hi. Thanks for joining us today to discuss this fascinating new research about dogs. I see there are lots of questions waiting for us. So let's get going.

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Alexandria, Va.: Did the researchers found particular breeds more aware/envious than other breeds?

We have a dacschund/beagle mix and he is super smart. He is envious of both emotional and material rewards. If I pay attention to our other dog, a chinese-crested/terrier mix, he will walk over and horn his way in. Also, he appears super sensitive to our emotions. He howls whenever the toddler is loudly crying but will sit close to his parents if he senses our subtle sadness. His behavior is in sharp contrast to our other dog, who does not care much for human attention but gets separation anxiety when separated from his brother.

Zsofia Viranyi: This study did not test for breed differences, so I cannot answer yet. It is interesting to think about that whether any function dogs were selected for would directly favour more or less sensitivity to unequal treatment.

In a follow up study we are exploring now whether this sensitivity is related to the level of attention paid to the fellow dog, to dependency on humans or to motivation to work. These skills would be easier to connect to the selection of breeds.

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Science is catching up!!: We lived in the country. When we were children, we would play with the small hunting dog's puppies. These puppies and the mother were kenneled. We also had a large adult dog, Duke, who had total freedom. We would play with the puppies in the yard and then go inside the house for a child's minute.

Duke never liked the puppies and had nothing to do with them. In fact, he disappeared on the scene every time we played with the puppies. On several occasions our mother looked out the window and would scream, "Go get Duke he's taking the puppies into the woods!!!" We would dash out the house running thru the backyard. Duke would have ALL of the puppies leading them into woods.

The rule became if you play with the puppies, put them back into the kennel IMMEDIATELY if you went into the house. Do dogs feel and act upon jealousy and envy? Yes!!

Zsofia Viranyi: Isn't it possible that it was Duke's way of having fun with the puppies that normally were not at all interesting for him but after seeing you playing with them they gain more value?

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I-270, Exit 1: The study's subjects were 43 dogs that must have received a certain amount of behavioral training to sit still and offer their paws. That seems, to me, like selection bias. Can studies be designed to work around this and how much of this inequity inversion is simply due to a feeling competition for food that is somewhat repressed by the dogs' training?

Zsofia Viranyi: Do you mean that less-trained dogs would have attacked their partners? Well, yes, some of them did growl or snap at their fellow dog. But this does not mean that they should stop working. Shouldn't competition increase their readyness to work and to replace the partner?

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Alexandria, Va.: I know dogs have envy. I lived in a house with a female boxer mix.

Whenever my girlfriend came over and we watched tv downstairs on the couch, the dog would immediately sit in between us with her back facing my girlfriend and would gradually try to push her with her hind legs.

We had multiple people over on a regular basis and the dog would generally go over to the new people in the house and sit on their laps, but the dog would only exhibit this behavior when my girlfriend came over.

Zsofia Viranyi: From the scientific point of view the great question is whether your behaviour is the same when your girlfriend is there or any other people. If you had behaved differently with your dog when she was there her reaction might have been a response rather to your behaviour then to the presence of your girlfriend.

Such observations are useful to generate hypotheses about the animals. And then science comes with its strict methodologies to test these ideas rigorously! Our results seem to confirm your interpretation.

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Helena, Mont.: Is it "envy" that the dogs exhibit, or is it an innate sense of fairness - that if you "pay" one dog to do something and don't pay me, then that is unfair. If a dog were jealous of another dog, I would expect more hostility to the dog. If the dog perceives that the human is not playing fair, I would expect the dog to stop interacting with the human. Maybe Martin Luther King Jr., was correct that the arc of the moral universe bends toward justice.

Zsofia Viranyi: This is a very good question! Are the dogs "angry at" the other dog or at the human experimenter? What we know that they show signs of stress but these are not directed behaviours. Directed behaviours are that first they look at the experimenter and then they turn away. Whether it's to stop interacting with the human or inhibiting themselves from showing hostility of the other dog, which is normally punished by people - good question! Some of them did show clear agression to their partners!

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Dogs envy comment: I think the authors are projecting human emotions onto animals. Leave them alone! They don't need to be as screwed up as humans are.

Rob Stein: One of the reasons researchers are so interested in studying these sorts of questions in animals is to gain insights into human emotions and behavior, and how they evolved. This study, for example, offer clues to how the human ability to cooperate evolved.

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Arlington, Va.: Thanks for reporting on this interesting study! I have 2 dogs and I have always felt that one had a fairly jealous nature even before I heard about this study. When they are at the dog park and my 2nd dog starts playing with a new dog my "jealous" dog will start interfering and repeatedly mount my other dog (it's the only time I've seem him display this behavior). I know mounting is about dominance in general, but could this also be indicative of jealousy? Thanks!

Zsofia Viranyi: Hard to tell. As you wrote, if your 2nd dog is in subordinate position this intervention may prevent her to "build up alliances against your "jealous" dog.

Another fascinated feature of dogs' complicated social life!

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Poughkeepsie, NY: If we know that dogs can experience envy, shouldn't we also expect they experience guilt, admiration, boredom, and worry?

Zsofia Viranyi: We do not know that! Even when thinking about people: is it the case that the ones who feel strong envy feel also guilt easier? I doubt that!

And even if in humans all these feelings appear together it does not mean that the same is true for animals as well. Some of these sensitivities might have evolved earlier or they might have been needed in different lifestyles.

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Olney: I see this frequently in the doggy obedience classes I teach - dogs whose handlers aren't as reward-oriented become demotivated watching the luckier dogs get praise and treats. A possibly related issue is "the treat is greener on the other side of the fence" phenomenon, whereby the dogs are convinced everyone else's treats must be yummier than the ones they are offered.

Zsofia Viranyi: There are lots of phenomena well-known in behavioural sciences possibly contributing to this. Food looses its value if fed long. Any object may get "socially facilitated" is manipulated by others. Voice used for praising is attractive also when coming from others than the owner - if my owner is silent of course I listen to the happy, rewarding voice!

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Bethesda, Md.: Thank you for this fascinating study. I think most owners of two dogs already know that this goes on. But I have often wondered how much of what I see is my own feelings projected onto the dogs and how much is their own. It is a great topic.

Rob Stein: Yes, I know from my own experience with dog that we often suspect we understand what's happening with their behavior but are never sure whether we're overinterpreting or projecting too much. It's nice to have some scientific confirmation of what we suspect.

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Bastrop, Texas: I'm not a professional dog trainer, but I have rehabbed and rehomed nearly a hundred dogs in my work with several rescue groups. As much as I want to believe that dogs feel envy, I'm not convinced that this experiment demonstrates it. Instead, it just confirms the training techniques that professional dog trainers have taught me.

Every dog that comes into my house has to sit before they get their dinner (later, I add "wait"). I'm always surprised how quickly a dog ... even one that's been chained in a yard its whole life ... gets it. There's no force: I just stand there with a dish until they sit. Behavior--reward. They get it.

Now, if I stood there until they sat and -didn't- give them their food dish, well, they won't sit. They'd lie down, bark, jump, or whatever, trying all kinds of behaviors to get that dish. It's pretty simple, and since sit seems to be kind of the default behavior they usually try first, it's a quick lesson. I'm sure a real dog trainer will post an explanation of this conditioning that's more scientific than mine.

Dogs (and cats) feel and think more deeply than most people imagine, but I'm just not sure that envy or justice are in their repertoire. Moreover, I am uncomfortable projecting this level of human understanding on dogs. People already foist too much humanity on dogs, and when they breach our unfair code of ethics, they end up in the pound. (E.g., "He knows he's not supposed to potty in the house!" "She snapped at the baby for no reason!")

Zsofia Viranyi: Much more than such relatively simple, self-centered other-regarding behaviours are needed to put moral responsibility on somebody!

The practical message of the study is that animals can have rather complicated emotions. Not being rewarded is not necessarily a problem but they can get stressed by not being rewarded when another one is rewarded. Hopefully this helps us to know when and how to take care of them.

We may assume such sensitivity in infants as well but still we do not put responsibility on them!

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Richmond, Va.: Does the research indicate that the dog who doesn't get the treat acts aggressively towards the dog who does? I have two dogs and I am always careful to give them both something at the same time because I do not want any doggie resentment. Am I making it more complicated than it is?

Zsofia Viranyi: No, the message of the study is that it might actually be useful if you do so. It is not necessarily necessary - pairs may react to unequal treatment differently. Resentment might be a word with too much implications, but yes, the chance is there that you save some stress for your dogs with it.

And actually I think this is the simplest possible solution for this question! :-)

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Anonymous: Thank you for this fascinating study. I think most owners of two dogs already know that this goes on. But I have often wondered how much of what I see is my own feelings projected onto the dogs and how much is their own. It is a great topic.

Rob Stein: Yes, I that was my reaction too -- having seen similar behavior in our own dog. Thanks for the comment.

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Athens, Greece: Dogs are pack animals, they respect the high ranking and rarely go out of order. You can see this working in interactions in families. Many of us reward and encourage by giving a bit when a dog watches others doing things. They learn by watching. They are also very interested in equality/fairness... and when working to get back into the groove, may shut down, after so many times.... she kept trying but was never rewarded. Do your researchers wear masks or other things so that facial expressions are not seen? Why does the person rewarding the one dog lift their hand up and then treat the dog from the bowl?

Zsofia Viranyi: No mask, but the experimenter looks in the middle (never at any of the dogs), and has a constantly neutral facial expression.

First of all we show the food before giving it to the dog so that both of them have a chance to realise whether it is there and what kind of food it is.

Plus in the asocial situation the food is moved out to the side as if the partner were there. This is necessary to make the two conditions comparable.

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Anonymous: Of course animals have huge emotional lives so envy would be part of that along with love, devotion, sadness, nurturing, etc.

My cat, by the way, is furious that you wasted time on dogs when cats are certainly more interesting and complex.

Rob Stein: Ah, a cat that subscribes to the Washington Post. Now that's a good story!

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Maryland: How come in novel animal behavior experiments the null hypothesis is always that the animal can't do what the human does? Wouldn't it be simpler, scientifically speaking, to assume similarities are the negative results? It would certainly be more interesting to discover a truly unique human capacity than yet another way in which humans are animals (which we already knew is usually true).

Rob Stein: There are certainly a lot of behaviors that are similar between humans and other species, but there are surely some that are unique or similar in some ways but not others. The only way to sort this out is to do careful studies like this one, and then replicate them to confirm the findings. It's all geared toward giving us a better understanding of both other species and ourselves.

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Arlington, Va.: I have a 1 1/2 yr old golden retriever, and 2 days ago rescued an 8-wk old golden-lab mix from a shelter. I did it so the golden would have a companion during the day, as I work full-time. Any advice on making sure this goes well? I don't want my golden to feel jealous, I want them to become buddies!

Zsofia Viranyi: Try to include the golden in most of your activities with the puppy. have fun, the three of you together. And keep the habits you developed the golden! Routines are important for the dogs!

And by the way, it might be good to work with the small one also separately (not in front of the eyes of the golden) if you also want to have a good relationship with her/him. Otherwise she/he may easily become dependent on the older dog instead of you.

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St. Louis, Mo.: I have 2 dogs, Jake (8 y/o) I've had for nearly 6 years and Millie (4 y/o) I've had for just over 2 years. Whenever I show Jake any affection, Millie runs over and interrupts my using her nose to move my hand. Also, when I let them in the house from being outside, she forces her way in first, sometimes physically pushing Jake out of the way. She was rescued along with about 50 animals from a horder so I don't know if that has anything to do with her behavior.

Zsofia Viranyi: Easily possible. The value of being petted or paid attention might be unusually high. She might have not known other forms of affection but shared with others. And first of all it would be a question whether she demands priority over Jake also in asocial contexts. Who eats first? Who gets toys from the ground?

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No Question, Just A Comment By A Dog "Mom": As a long-time owner of Border Collies and current owner of a male & female BC, I know that if I were to treat my dogs that way they would turn their backs on me, refuse to look at me and give me the slanty sideways eyes. In other words, the canine cold shoulder. I'd be in the dog house with my pooches. It would take a really good treat to get "paw" and "down" or "come" from them again.

They have a low tolerance for nonsense and, yes, they do very much keep an eye on what the other is getting. The results of this experiment only reinforce what multiple-dog owners already know.

Ok, one question after all - was there any difference in response by breed?

Rob Stein: Good question. There was a big variety of dogs involved in the study, including pure breds and mutts. And as far as I know they did not find any clear distinction by breed.

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NOVA: My father was blind and had a guide dog. When my parents met, my dad and his guide dog were living alone. The dog became very jealous of my father's relationship with my mother. The dog began to disobey my father's commands. When the dog learned the way to my mother's apartment, the dog would lead my father past it to avoid my mom! My mom had to make friends with the dog to correct the behavior. My mom had my brother and sister from a previous marriage and the dog was never jealous of them but rather protective.

Zsofia Viranyi: As a scientist I would react: what a great behaviour to measure what animals think and feel!

As someone once working with therapy and service dogs: the relationship and understanding between helping dogs and their owners can be amazing! A real challenge for science to find out what it going on!

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Duke con't: Duke a 70 pound male dog (8 years old)never displayed any playful behavior. There was no tail wagging, nipping, etc. I observed him waiting for a puppy that was slower to catch up as he headed for the woods. When we would catch him, he would quickly leave the puppies.

Zsofia Viranyi: Well, I suppose after a few such attempts he had some hardly rewarding experience. :-)

Did the pups have any other chance to follow him than being left outside after playing? Can Duke's behaviour be a mixture of trying to get away from the pups and being induced to take care of the little creatures?

Would have been very interesting to see, the details of behaviour can be very important!

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Rockville, Md.: I just logged on and have not had time to skim the earlier comments. I hope this one does not repeat anything said earlier or is deemed off-topic. I'm not surprised to hear that dogs show envy. They certainly seem able to show deceit. My friend Wayne tells a great story about the dachshund his family had once. Fritz was not allowed on the furniture. But there was a big chair or sofa under the front window of the house: it provided a great view into the neighborhood. Whenever the family was away from home for a while, Fritz would get up on the furniture to enjoy the view. When the family returned, they would sometimes spy Fritz's face in the window. But by the time they got the door open and went back into the house, Fritz was nowhere to be seen. A search would find Fritz in a back room, on his dog bed, pretending to be asleep. He would sheepishly look up at them as if to say "how long have you been gone?" Sorry for any typos, I'm in a hurry!

Rob Stein: Sounds like fodder for the next study! Thanks for sharing that fun story!

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St. Louis, MO (again): Feeding is not a problem, in the mornings, when I let them in, they each run to their own bowls, in the evening I put Jake's food down first, Millie patiently waits for me to put down hers. They are both trained to sit before I put their food down or give them treats. Toys are not a problem either, since Jake never liked playing with them. Millie does sometimes humps Jake, he will growl and snap at her.

Zsofia Viranyi: Dominance relations are often context dependent in animals with less rigid social systems (meaning that another animal might have access to food firstly than to a mate for instance).

Also the sensitivity to unequal treatment can easily depend on the value offered. Maybe Millie would be furious when less petted than Jake but would not care so much about getting food. A topic for future research.

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Rob Stein: Thanks so much for all your great questions and fun stories. This is clearly a fascinating subject, and I'm sure we'll be revisiting it again soon. I'd like to thank Zs fia Viranyi of the Konrad Lorenz Institute for Evolution and Cognition Research for joining us today.

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Fairfax, Va.: Dogs definitely have envy. Whenever I'm holding our 3-month-old to feed him, our dog comes over and hurls himself onto whatever space I have left on my lap. But when the baby's in the swing or elsewhere, our dog doesn't seem to care as much. It's only when he feels like the other little one is getting more attention that he pushed himself onto us. I do my best to pet him as I feed the baby so he doesn't start "resenting" the baby.

Zsofia Viranyi: Sensitive question.

I do not believe that the implication of our study would be that everything must be equally shared with all partners. A dog with a healthy mind knows when it is her/his time and when it is that of others. The study refers to the equal treatment of DOGS living in the same household. It is not good for dogs to be in a human/child status (one way to describe it would be that it is too much responsibility, too much pressure for them).

Keep time and routines with your dog which are entirely hers/his. And time for the baby. Your dog will understand it. As you devote, I guess, time and attention to your computer or other work which is without your dog. Dogs love rules and habits.

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