Washington Post Magazine: The Truth About Forgiveness

A Baltimore father has finally found a balm for his anger and sorrow over the shooting death of his teenage son 14 years ago -- meeting the murderer face to face.

Washington Post Magazine contributor Karen Houppert, Baltimore resident Bernard Williams and Lauren Abramson, director of Baltimore's Community Conferencing Center were online Monday, March 23 to discuss Houppert's Post Magazine cover story, 'The Truth About Forgiveness,' and the work Abramson's organization does to promote reconciliation and healing.

A transcript follows.

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Bernard Williams: Hi, my name is Bernard.

It has been an honor for me to meet and work with Lauren Abramson and the staff of the Community Conferencing Center.

I am grateful for the work the Community Conferencing Center is providing for the citizens of Baltimore city. It has been a pleasure and a rewarding experience working alongside them. I appreciate the support and the love I've received from the center and I have come to regard them as my extended family. They are part of the story just as much as I am.

Thank you.

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Lauren Abramson: Hi. My name is Lauren. It has been an honor for me to meet and work with Bernard Williams, and I am grateful for your interest in his story and in the work of the Community Conferencing Center. I am looking forward to your comments and questions.

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Karen Houppert:

I'm the reporter who tagged along with Lauren Abramson and Bernard Williams as they sifted through the aftermath of Beethoven's death and explored how to move forward.

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Cleveland, Ohio: Has your son's assailant sought your forgiveness? What is your opinion on the death penalty? Thank you for sharing your story. God bless you!!!

Bernard Williams: Mr. Norman didn't ask for my forgiveness directly the first time we met. He just really wanted me to know how sorry he was. The meeting wasn't his idea -- it was mine.

No, I don't believe in the death penalty.

God bless you for your comment.

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Arlington, Va.: Thank you for this story -- it reminded me of the incredible power of forgiveness and conflict resolution.

Lauren (or others), can you recommend any resources or courses in the greater D.C. area for those of us looking to train and gain experience in conflict resolution? I am an attorney who took both arbitration and mediation classes in law school, with the intention of being a volunteer mediator in my spare time. I finally have some spare time these days, and am looking for some training and volunteer mediation opportunities in MD/DC/VA. Any advice you could offer regarding how to get started is much appreciated.

Lauren Abramson: It's nice to hear about your sustained interest in alternatives to the court system. If you are interested in Community Conferencing, there is a program in Montgomery County that you could check out. I will add their contact information below this message. There is also a Restorative Justice program in Fairfax, Virginia that works in Northern Virginia. I'll include their contact info as well.

And of course, feel free to check out our website at www.communityconferencing.org. We offer training in Community Conferencing twice each year in Baltimore. We'd love to have you join us sometime.

Northern Virginia Mediation Service

Bill Casey

703-568-3438

b13909@comcast.net

Community Conferencing Initiative

Peter Meleney, Program Manager

2424 Reedie Drive, #301

Wheaton, MD 90902

(301) 942-7700 ph

(301) 942-7970 fax

www.crcmc.org

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Takoma Park, Md.: Thank you. This article is about a murder, 2 men... and the future of the human race.

Bernard Williams: Thank you for your comment.

I intended for it to be much more than that. I was hoping by sharing my story that it would give a lot of people in my position the ability to address their pain and grief before it consumes them mentally and physically.

My decision to approach Mr. Norman was a spiritual one that I felt that I had to take. It wasn't up to me to judge or to hold him responsible for his actions. By forgiving him, it is now between him and God. In my opinion, the future of the human race belongs in the hands of God.

Lauren Abramson: Thank you for this beautiful observation. This pretty much exactly sums up why we do this work.

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Anywhere, USA: Beautiful article. Thank you. And I hope Mr. Norman's subsequent conduct ratifies Bernard's faith in him.

And GET THE ASSAULT WEAPONS AWAY FROM everybody who doesn't wear a badge. When will this nation come to its senses?

Bernard Williams: My sentiments exactly.

Thank you for your comment.

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Charlotte, N.C.: I am afraid I will not be available at noon, but I wanted to thank you, Ms. Houppert, for so eloquently bringing this story to us.

Mr. Williams, your story is an inspiration. I have friends who are grappling with lesser resentments, and I will share with them your journey through self-forgiveness to the forgiveness.

Dr. Abramson, how do people reconcile with those who do not acknowledge guilt or responsibility? All the literature I have read on the topic says we forgive for ourselves, and not for the other, but in our society the demand for retribution runs deep.

Lauren Abramson: All true. I am often reminded what a personal journey forgiveness is. When there is not an acknowledgment of responsibility, it may be harder to do. Still, I always remember the interviews with victims following the trial of the man who killed and wounded several people on the Long Island Railroad (several years ago.). The man who did it was delusional, paranoid, and schizophrenic and defended himself in court. Even though he denied ever doing it, all of the victims commented after the trial that they felt better being able to tell him face-to-face how his actions affected them. I can't say that translated into their forgiveness, but they felt some sense of healing having been able to tell HIM their story.

As for our focus on retribution... punishment tells people what NOT to do; it doesn't help people learn about how to do things in a better way. There is much research that shows that our retributive criminal justice system is not reducing the number of crimes, or making us safer. And this is not just a liberal/conservative issue. Policy makers on both sides of "the aisle" recognize this and are making efforts to provide opportunities for justice that give victims a voice, and that addresses the relationships that are damaged in the wake of crime -- and that a crime is not solely the violation of a law.

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Human Nature: It's beyond me. I've always felt that in order to forgive you must forget. How can a person forget? It's against human nature, especially when it comes after such a loss.

Bernard Williams: My objective is not to forget, a tragedy such as I and my family went through will always be part of our lives.

As I stated in the article, I wanted to move in a spiritual direction and in order to be forgiven, I had to forgive.

As the scripture says in the Bible how can you love God and hate your neighbor?

It would have been hypocritical for me to ask God for forgiveness if I couldn't forgive my fellow man regardless of what the situation or the circumstances were. It was left out of the article that I was "letting it go" from my standpoint and leaving it between Mr. Norman and whomever he believes in. In the end the final judgment is in the hands of the creator.

By forgiving Mr. Norman, it would not diminish or take away from the memory of my son.

Thank you for your comment.

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Rockville, Md.: The article was very poignant. This question is for Bernard -- do you find yourself still struggling with forgiving the man who shot your son? If not, how do you keep yourself from relapsing emotionally?

Bernard Williams: No, I don't struggle with forgiving him because if I did, then all that I set out to do would have been pointless.

To keep from relapsing, I have surrounded myself with a support group. Now I'm spiritually active with my wife and daughter who constantly keep me spiritually fed with biblical literature.

And when I find myself relapsing -- there is no better support or counseling than the scriptures.

Thank you for your comment.

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Washington, D.C.: I commend Mr. Williams for his bravery. My brother was murdered on 9/11 so at different points in the story, I could empathize with Mr. Williams. In particular, while one cannot escape thinking about what occurred, I feel it is important to take steps to bring a positive perspective and not fear and loathe those times. If ever afforded the opportunity, I have no idea as to whether I would be able to do (or, be interested in doing) what Mr. Williams did. However, I have found anger and frustration to be a waste of time and energy and I think you, Mr. Williams, found one way to dissipate it. To your health.

Bernard Williams: I'm sorry for your loss. I know 9/11 was a terrible time for everyone.

But given the state of my mental capacity as well as my physical well being I felt the only way that I could deal with the situation was to put Mr. Norman completely behind me and concentrate on getting myself back to normal.

Thank you for your comment.

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Baltimore, Md.: Mr. Williams,

Your story moved me. I believe you are reaching and helping people more than you can imagine. You make me proud and you show the true power of the human spirit. My sincerest thanks to you for sharing your story. You are my hero.

Karen,

You told the story in a way the truly respected and valued Mr. Williams and his son, Vernon. Even lovingly referring to him as Beethoven in the story. How can you not care for the person? Thank you for bringing us something great to read in these difficult times. Truly uplifting.

Karen Houppert: Thank you for your comments. In truth, Bernard spoke so honestly about his experiences and feelings that my job, as a reporter, of conveying them wasn't the least bit arduous in this case.

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NW D.C.: What a beautiful story of tragedy and forgiveness. I am a 27 year old black man and I just about came to tears as I read about this triumphant, 14 year journey to forgiveness. We in the black community (and really the urban community at-large) are faced with death and destruction every day. A friend of mine was hijacked and killed, another killed at a club, and a Hispanic woman killed on my block in the early morning hours waiting for a bus (she immigrated from Salvador). Your story has inspired me and persuaded me that we must be willing to forgive our neighbor 7 times 77 if needed! Even if they murdered your loved one. Thank you. God bless you.

Bernard Williams: God bless you.

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Philadelphia, Pa.: As was mentioned, we can make ourselves sick. I recently re-read this in Arlen Spector's autobiography where he attributes his cancer to the stress of his job. If we carry hate and worry inside us, it makes our body sick. Isn't there some internal peace that comes when we accept the past and realize it only hurts, literally, to dwell upon it?

Bernard Williams: Yes, it does. Because literally I was committing emotional suicide as well as hurting myself physically

I was not only dealing with the loss -- the death of my son during the year that my son was murdered, but also my brother passed away a month before my son did. My grandmother passed away 4 months before my brother did, and my mother passed away five months before her mother, my grandmother.

So I was not only grieving and dealing with the death of my son, I didn't have time to accept or adjust to losing other family members as well.

So dealing with Mr. Norman I have also come to terms with the death of my family members and that's a great weight off of me to accept it. I'm finally gaining the peace that I am seeking.

Thank you.

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Charlotte, N.C.: I noticed that most of the comments about the article were off topic, about guns, or crime, or sentencing, or (formal) education. How hard is it to introduce a language of forgiveness in a culture of vindication?

Bernard Williams: I wish I had the answer for that. For me, it's not about vindication or revenge. It's just about self-healing.

I advocate gun control and felt that way before my son was murdered. Even during my time in the military it was hard for me to even learn how to use an assault weapon or train to kill my fellow man.

Thank you for commenting.

Karen Houppert: I'm not persuaded that those comments are off-topic. Part of introducing a "language of forgiveness in a culture of vindication" has to be open conversations about violence, guns, incarceration, rehabilitation--and especially, education. After all, education, which if done right, teaches us to think critically and well so that we make better decisions in our lives, right?

Lauren Abramson: Thank you for that comment. We, indeed, live in a culture of vindication, and our language often reinforces that. Our culture is created by the stories we tell and the language we use to tell them. That is why I am so grateful to Bernard for sharing his powerful story, and to Karen and the Post for writing about it; that's a step toward changing our culture.

Karen mentions that changing the culture begins when we're open to conversations about violence, guns, etc. I agree, and would only add that I feel that our culture could benefit from being open to conversations. Period. Part of the price of our busy, air conditioned, and hi-tech lives is that we no longer have very many rituals that bring us together to simply talk with each other. As a result we have a much-reduced ability to do so; and that gets accentuated when problems arise. Now we rely more on the Jerry-Springer model of dealing with each other, rather than finding a space to talk to each other and find understanding.

If we create a culture that nurtures understanding, then we will probably be able to enjoy a culture that includes a language of forgiveness. That would require that we had opportunities to learn it and practice it.

As an aside, we are trying to build this in Baltimore schools with our "Daily Rap" circle dialogues--teaching teachers to provide their students with a regular time to circle up and talk about whatever is important to THEM. In doing so, they gain their own voice while at the same time learning about each other in ways that help them not only get along better, but also help them academically as well.

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Who can forgive?: Whatever the rights and wrongs of the father's forgiveness, you cannot allow the perpetrators of shootings to get lesser sentences because they claim they were aiming to miss, only trying to scare, lost control of their gun etc.

What's to stop them all from claiming this? In many cases it will be impossible to disprove. But in the vast majority, it will be a lie.

You might as well not even have first degree murder on the statute books if it can't be applied in a crystal-clear case like this.

This man murdered his neighbor's kid for the most pathetic of reasons. The father has a right to forgive. But I don't think the parole board does.

Karen Houppert: I think this depends on how you view the point of incarceration. If you think incarceration is simply designed to punish offenders, that's one thing. But if you think folks who do wrong can be "rehabilitated" or learn to think differently and act differently, then maybe the parole board's job has nothing to do with meting out "forgiveness" or punishment but about deciding who is rehabilitated and ready to re-enter the community.

Bernard Williams: I wasn't there to persuade the parole board to release Mr. Norman on his merits or whatever he was supposed to do to gain parole.

Asking for his release was based on a decision that was not printed in the article. It was based on his being released to re-establish his relationship with his daughter whom he hasn't seen since she was 5 years old.

Thanks for commenting.

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Fairfax, Va.: This was a very moving and heartbreaking article. I was very touched by Mr. Williams' sentiment that his son not be seen as "just another dead black youth." It's a shame that our young men are seen in that light when they pass. I'm confused about one thing and hope you can clarify: Your wife Diane stated that she thought it was a set-up. What did she mean by that? Thank you, and God bless you and your family. I pray that healing is brought to your heart.

Bernard Williams: There was speculation that my son was a victim of a prank that went wrong. That he was pushed into Mr. Norman's vehicle to set off the alarm. There were some who thought this but Diane and I have been over this a thousand times. The article states that Diane made that statement but it was our daughter who gave her opinion that it was a set-up.

But she didn't know -- like I said it was her opinion because she was only four years old at the time and only heard talk around the neighborhood as she was growing up.

I knew just about everyone in the neighborhood as well as Beethoven's friends. I had a chance to talk to the ones who were with him that night. I've known them since they were toddlers and I feel they had no intentions of even messing around with Mr. Norman's vehicle.

It was just that Diane's words were taken out of context and to set the record straight -- there was no debate between me, my wife, or any other family member as to what happened that night.

Thank you.

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Loudoun County : Hello -- This story brought me to tears. I just wanted to ask how the rest of your family is doing? Forgiving Mr. Norman seemed to help you, did seeing you heal also help your family?

Bernard Williams: There has been a change in the family attitude. My children were young when Vernon was murdered. Over the years, the affect it had on them was the loss of their brother who they had bonded with and missed deeply. They had no knowledge of Mr. Norman and therefore he was never on their minds.

The only thing that they knew is that Mr. Norman was locked up and he was never discussed among them. The only time they thought of Mr. Norman was the time I approached them about my decision. They thought it was okay as long as it helped me to overcome what I was going through.

My wife, Diane, has come to terms with Vernon's death and together she and I have committed ourselves to his memory for our children and grandchildren to celebrate and keep alive his legacy. In order to do that, we had to put Mr. Norman behind us.

Thank you for your questions.

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Syracuse, N.Y.: As a counselor, I am often concerned about what I see as pressure put on people to forgive, without being "permitted" to experience and express their anger first. I view forgiveness as the natural outcome of a proper healing process, and anger as a natural phase of that process. What is your view of this? Mr. Williams, do you think you would have been able to reach this point of forgiveness, if you hadn't processed your anger first? Ms. Abramson, what do you see in people that you work with? Can forgiveness be reached without first accepting and validating anger?

Lauren Abramson: I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, the Community Conferencing process we provide is explicitly designed to provide the participants with a safe forum for them to express how they feel, whatever that is--anger, terror, disgust, surprise, etc. If, after giving voice to their feelings, and hearing how the other participants feel, participants come to a new understanding that leads to forgiveness, then that is great. But the goal of the process is to provide that space to give space for the expression of emotions. Having emotions is part of our biology, and we suffer greatly--as individuals and as a society--for the extent to which we are limited in being able to express how we feel.

I am continually amazed at the transformations that take place once people are given that opportunity. But, again, I completely agree with you that, unless someone comes to forgiveness on their own and based on their own peace wit their own feelings, then it will not lead to peace.

If anyone is interested in the role of emotions in our work, there is an article listed on our website (communityconferencing.org) titled "The Psychology of Community Conferencing."

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Arlington, Va.: Bernard Williams forgave William Norman after he determined that he was really sorry for killing his son. That helped Williams get on with his life. But what if Norman wasn't sorry? Psychologically and physically, wouldn't Williams still be better off if he could find a way to forgive him?

Bernard Williams: Regardless of Mr. Norman's position -- if he wasn't sorry or remorseful -- it didn't matter because I was there for my own well-being, not his.

I was there to confront whatever I was going through. I was there to deal with or address the demons his actions caused to come into my life. I felt as though I didn't have to answer to anyone but myself. I had to stop punishing myself for something that I was not responsible for -- after all -- it was he who committed the crime that stole my son's life.

It is Mr. Norman who has to deal it for the rest of his life and he has to be judged by his higher power. The only redemption that I was seeking was my own redemption for my sanity.

Thank you for your questions.

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Washington, D.C.: Did it bother you to read the description of Mr. Norman by his mom as a "good kid?"

Bernard Williams: Parents have a tendency to say their children are good regardless if they are bad as hell (excuse me). I guess that's the natural thing to do. I guess if my kid was bad, I would acknowledge it and find some way to get him back on point.

It didn't bother me that she said that. That's what the majority of parents say.

But when I said my son was good, I honest to God mean that he was. But I can't prove it to you because he is no longer here.

Thank you.

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Washington, D.C.: What a compelling story. I admire Mr. Williams' honesty and ability to forgive. I wonder how much the circumstances of Vernon's death played a role. That is, if it had not been an accident (albeit an accident in the course of otherwise objectionable behavior) do you think you would have been able to come to the same conclusion about forgiveness being better than anger and revenge?

Bernard Williams: Who said it was an accident? Mr. Norman's actions were reckless and detrimental.

His shooting spree was on a public street so therefore he could endangered the lives of anyone walking or driving down the street.

Whether it was an accident or not -- the result would have been the same. I lost a son.

Thank you.

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Cost to Society: After reading this story I began to wonder about this facility in Hagerstown. I was curious how big it was and how many costs Maryland taxpayers pay to keep prisoners incarcerated there. Looking at the facility using Google Earth I realized the Hagerstown Correctional Center is a huge place and must cost hundreds of millions to operate each year. All those broken human lives and the damaged lives of their victims and the costs to society all add up to so much waste. If just one person thinking about committing a crime reads this article and decides not to break the law Ms. Houppert's efforts will have achieved some progress for our society. Parents should cut this article out of the paper or print it and give it to their kids to read. There are many lessons woven into the fabric of the lives described herein.

Bernard Williams: Thank you for your comment.

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Uniontown, Ohio: Hello Mr. Williams, First I'd like to say how extremely sorry I am for your loss, especially under such violent conditions. Did meeting your son's assailant begin a new healing process or was it part of the entire process? Did it provide some closure for you? God Bless you and your family

Bernard Williams: Thank you. Meeting Mr. Norman did began the healing process. After meeting with him it enabled me to find answers to a lot of questions that were not answered because of his guilty plea. Because he pled guilty there was no trial for any testimony or evidence to be presented which would have allowed me to understand and gain insight as to why he went on the shooting spree.

Thank you

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Lauren Abramson: Thank you all so much for your thoughtful comments.

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Alexandria, Va.: Mr. Williams, you are truly a shining example of the power of forgiveness and its effect on one's well-being. I too lost a child -- it was almost 7 yrs ago (though our loss was due to an undiagnosed congenital heart condition). I was angry at first with the 911 operator who didn't help us, the doctors who didn't diagnose my daughter's heart condition (they saw her twice during the week before her sudden death), and mostly with myself for not recognizing sooner that there was something wrong with my baby girl. Forgiving myself has been the hardest. I found much in common with what you've gone through. Please know you're not alone, and please know you're giving hope to those of us out there in similar situations.

Bernard Williams: Thanks for sharing that with me. I'm glad my story was somewhat of a help to you. Yours is an inspiration to me. Losing a child is something that I wish no parent would have to endure.

For a child to lose their life, regardless of the circumstances, is a tragedy.

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Lauren Abramson: If you have any questions about our work, please feel free to get in touch with us at the Community Conferencing Center - www.communityconferencing.org

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Georgetown, D.C.: Good afternoon, I don't have a question. I just wanted to praise Mr. Williams for his decision to open his heart to forgiveness. My 12 year sister was raped and murdered 42 years ago, and even though I still miss her and it is still painful to remember what happened to her, it wasn't until I forgave the person who did it that the healing process began. But only God can change your heart and your will to do something positive out of something so negative and painful. Thank you, Mr. Williams, for sharing your story.

Lauren Abramson: Thank you for sharing yours.

Bernard Williams: Thank you. It's comments like yours that will help me to continue on with my healing process. I'm sorry about your sister. God bless you.

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Karen Houppert: Good-bye, and thanks for an interesting conversation.

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D.C.: Mr. Williams,

As I lost my loved one to cancer, my forgiveness process is a little bit different than yours. However, I really related to your obvious struggle at times with the whole "coulda shoulda woulda" done if possible. I have felt my life stagnated by my grief and my guilt. Thank you for your courage to voice those things we keep stuffed way down inside. You led me to reach out this morning for support.

Blessings to you and yours.

Bernard Williams: Thank you for your support and comment. It's comments like these that will make my road easier to travel as I continue on with my healing process.

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Mountain View, Calif.: I was incredibly moved by the article - it was very powerful. Thanks to each of you for the part you played in the process. Bernard, thank you for the courage to tell your story - all of it. I am curious if this process has raised questions for any of you on our current judicial system. Briefly, how has this process changed your view of the judicial system and if you could change one thing, what would it be?

Lauren Abramson: The current judicial system is overburdened, costly, typically does not include victims, and the quality of legal representation is different depending on how much money you have. It also concerns itself with the law that was broken as opposed to the relationships that were damaged, and focuses on punishment as opposed to healing and learning.

If we provided justice that let the people affected address the damaged relationships, then a lot of the other things might change as well.

Bernard Williams: Allowing the victim or family of the victims more involvement with the state's attorneys office in communicating with each other in order to keep the victim or family of the victim informed of the various stages of the investigation and trial process.

The greatest thing that bothered me about the judicial system -- Mr. Norman was indicted by the grand jury for 1st degree murder, attempted murder, and a lot of other 1st degree charges but yet he was pleaded down to the charge of 2nd degree without anyone informing me of it from the state's attorney's office.

I felt as though my son's life was taken away again for the second time.

Thank you.

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Bernard Williams: Thank you for your questions and comments. I hope anyone who has been through or is going through something similar to what I've been through -- does not let it get to the point where it consumes you mentally and physically -- before it's too late to do anything about it. God bless us one and all.

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