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Deposition of Bill Gates
August 28, 1998, Part B, Page 1

On Wednesday, April 28, 1999, the official transcript of the
deposition of Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates was released.

	5	UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 	)                               
			) No. CIV 98-1232(TPJ)
	6	             Plaintiff,	)
	7	         vs.	) (Afternoon Session)
	9	              Defendant.  	) 
13	GATES, a witness herein, taken on behalf of the
14	plaintiffs at 12:35 p.m., Friday, August 28, 1998, at
15	One Microsoft Way, Redmond, Washington, before
16	Katherine Gale, CSR, pursuant to Subpoena.  
Katherine Gale
24	CSR No. 9793
		Our File No. 1-49006 25   
				450 Golden Gate Avenue
	5			Box 36046
			San Francisco, California  94102               
6			(415) 436-6660
	8			80 Business Park Drive
				Armonk, New York  10504-1710
	9			(914) 273-9800    
13			One Microsoft Way              
				Redmond, Washington  98052
14			(425) 936-3103
16			125 Broad Street
				New York, New York 10004
17			(212) 558-3546                   
22			120 Broadway
				New York, New York 10271-0332        
23			(212) 416-8275    
25			     MICHEL CARTER, Video Operator   
	1				        I N D E X
	3	WITNESS	      EXAMINATION BY             	PAGE
	4	Bill Gates	      Mr. Boies	391
			372	E-mail dated 4/14/97	399
			373	E-mail dated 7/1/97	404
			374	E-mail dated 8/25/97	441
			375	E-mail dated 10/12/97	469
			376	E-mail dated 4/17/97	393
			377	E-mail dated 6/12/97	453
13				with Attachment
"How to Get To 30%
14				Share In 12 Months"
15		378	E-mail dated 5/14/97	449
16		379	E-mail dated 6/18/97	496
	1			       BILL GATES,
	2	a witness herein, having been previously duly sworn,
	3	was deposed and testified as follows:  
	5			THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 12:35. 
	6	We're going back on the record.  This is Tape 3 of
	7	the videotaped deposition of Bill Gates on August 28.
	9			 EXAMINATION (Continued)
10	BY MR. BOIES:  
11		   Q	In connection with Intuit, Mr. Gates,
12	insofar as you were aware, was there any effort to
13	get Intuit to agree that Intuit would not promote
14	Netscape's browser? 
15		   A	I'm not aware of any -- anything
16	specifically related to promotion.  As I said, I
17	didn't deal with them directly.  You could say 
18	that -- ask them not to support Netscape as their
19	standard supported browser.  It's a change in their
20	promotion of Netscape. 
21		   Q	Yes.  I take that point.  Let me make
22	the question a little more precise. 
23			Other than an attempt to get Intuit to
24	make Internet Explorer into its default browser, did
25	Microsoft make any effort, that you're aware of, to
	1	get Intuit not to support or advertise Netscape's
	2	browser? 
	3			A	It's kind of a strange question because
	4	Intuit never would have specifically advertised
	5	someone's browser.  So I don't know what -- what do
	6	you mean by promotion when you give that example? 
	7			Q	Well, I'm really just asking for what
	8	Microsoft did.  And if you don't understand the
	9	question, Mr. Gates, you can tell me and I will
10	rephrase the question. 
11			A	Isn't that what I just did? 
12			Q	Saying that you didn't understand the
13	question? 
14			A	Uh-huh. 
15			Q	Okay.  Let me put another question to
16	you.		      
17				Did Microsoft, insofar as you are
18	aware, try to get Intuit to agree not to enter into
19	any kind of marketing or promotion agreements with
20	Netscape? 
21			A	I don't know. 
22			Q	Did you have discussions with anyone
23	concerning what Microsoft was trying to get from
24	Intuit? 
25			A	I might have sent e-mail about it at
	1	some point. 
	2			Q	Do you remember the content of that
	3	e-mail? 
	4			A	No. 
	5			Q	Do you remember anything at all about
	6	the content of that e-mail? 
	7			A	Well, I don't know that it's an e-mail
	8	either.  I said I might have sent e-mail.  It may
	9	have been many e-mails.  So no, I don't remember
10	anything beyond the fact that there may have been
11	e-mail about this, and I may have made my views about
12	the subject known. 
13			Q	Let me ask you to look at a document
14	that has been previously marked as Government Exhibit
15	376.  
16				This purports to be an e-mail dated
17	April 17, 1997 from Brad Chase to you and some other
18	people which is forwarding on an e-mail of earlier in
19	the day on April 17 from Mr. Will Poole to Brad
20	Chase.  The subject of both e-mails is Intuit Terms
21	Agreed. 
22				(The document referred to was marked as
23	Government Exhibit 376 for identification and is
24	attached hereto.)
25			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Do you see that? 
	1			A	Well, it's just a forward, yeah. 
	2			Q	Do you recall receiving this e-mail? 
	3			A	No. 
	4			Q	Do you have any doubt that you received
	5	a copy of this e-mail? 
	6			A	No. 
	7			Q	There are --
	8			A	I don't have any reason to doubt.  I
	9	don't know that I received the e-mail.  I don't have
10	any reason to doubt it.  But since I don't remember
11	it -- 
12			Q	Did you ever see this e-mail before? 
13			A	I don't remember ever seeing it. 
14			Q	Under the heading "Intuit obligations"
15	it says, "Bundle IE3 (Quicken) and IE4 (other
16	products)."
17				Do you see that? 
18			A	Uh-huh. 
19			Q	Were you told in April 1997 that Intuit
20	had agreed to bundle IE3 and IE4 with its products? 
21			A	I don't remember that specifically. 
22			Q	Farther down on under "Intuit
23	obligations," there is an obligation that reads,
24	quote, 
25				   "Not enter into marketing or
	1				promotion agreements with Other
	2				Browser manufacturers for
	3				distribution or promotion of Intuit
	4				content."
	5					Do you see that? 
	6			A	Uh-huh. 
	7			Q	Were you told in words or in substance
	8	in or about April of 1997 that Intuit had agreed not
	9	to enter into marketing or promotion agreements with
10	other browser manufacturers for distribution or
11	promotion of Intuit content? 
12			A	I don't remember being told that. 
13			Q	Do you have any reason to doubt that
14	you were told that? 
15			A	In the sense that one of the e-mails
16	that may have come into my mailbox might have related
17	to that, I don't -- I don't doubt it.  Certainly
18	wasn't something that could have been very
19	significant to me because I don't have a recollection
20	of it.  
21			Q	The last Intuit obligation that is
22	listed here is, quote, 
23					   "Create 'differentiated
24				content' area for Intuit Channel that
25				is available only to IE users," close
	1			 quote.  
	2				Do you see that? 
	3			A	Uh-huh. 
	4			Q	Were you told in words or in substance
	5	in or about April of 1997 that Intuit had agreed with
	6	Microsoft that Intuit would create a differentiated
	7	content area for Intuit's channel that would be
	8	available only to IE users? 
	9			A	I don't remember being told that nor do
10	I understand what it means. 
11			Q	Have you ever had any discussions with
12	anyone within Microsoft about the possibility of
13	content providers creating content area that would
14	only be available to IE users? 
15			A	I don't -- no.  I don't understand
16	that.  I mean, it -- if the URL was there, you can
17	get to it. 
18			Q	So what you're saying is that this
19	obligation that Intuit said to have taken on is an
20	obligation that you don't understand at all what it
21	means; is that what you're telling me? 
22			A	No.  I'm saying these words that are on
23	this piece of paper, I don't understand what they
24	mean. 
25			Q	Do you understand the concept? 
	1			A	I don't know what it means. 
	2			Q	Okay. 
	3				Did you ever ask Mr. Poole what it
	4	meant? 
	5			A	Nope. 
	6			Q	Did you ever ask Mr. Chase what it
	7	meant? 
	8			A	No. 
	9			Q	Did you ever ask anybody what it meant? 
10			A	Those words, no. 
11			Q	Or the concept that is described by
12	those words? 
13			A	I don't understand those words.  So
14	it's hard for me to relate to the concept.  I don't
15	understand the words. 
16			Q	Let me be sure that I understand what
17	you don't understand. 
18				Are you telling me that you don't
19	understand what it would mean for Intuit to create a
20	differentiated content area? 
21			A	That's in quotes. 
22			Q	Yes.  For the Intuit Channel that would
23	be available only to IE users? 
24			A	I'm not sure what they mean by that. 
25			Q	Do you have any idea what they mean by
	1	that? 
	2			A	No.  It's confusing to me. 
	3			Q	All right, sir. 
	4				When did Microsoft enter into an
	5	agreement with Intuit to make IE Intuit's default
	6	browser? 
	7			A	I don't know the date of our agreement
	8	with Intuit. 
	9			Q	Do you know approximately? 
10			A	Well, before you showed me this e-mail,
11	I would have said, no.  Looking in this e-mail it
12	suggests that it was sometime before April 17, 1997. 
13			Q	Just so you're not misled by the e-mail
14	the e-mail talks about when the terms are agreed, it
15	doesn't say that the agreement has yet been signed;
16	is that correct? 
17			A	I hadn't thought about that
18	distinction. 
19			Q	I think the first line you may want to
20	look at it where it says, 
21				   "We have agreed on all
22			 salient terms in our term sheet and
23			 are going to contract."
24			A	Oh, you're right.  You're right.  I
25	guess I'd have to get a copy of it to know what date
	1	it has.  I think there was an agreement reached,
	2	though. 
	3			Q	Are you aware of any terms in that
	4	agreement other than terms that are identified here? 
	5			A	No. 
	6			Q	Let me ask you to look at a document
	7	that has been previously marked as Government Exhibit
	8	372.   
	9				This is an e-mail to you from Ben
10	Slivka dated April 14, 1997.  And the subject is,
11	quote, "Java review with you," close quote.  
12				(The document referred to was marked as
13	Government Exhibit 372 for identification and is
14	attached hereto.)
15			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Did you receive this
16	e-mail in or about April of 1997, Mr. Gates? 
17			A	I don't remember. 
18			Q	The e-mail begins that the author is
19	working with Paul Maritz to set up a two -- to
20	three-hour review for you on your Java efforts. 
21				Do you see that? 
22			A	On our Java efforts. 
23			Q	On Microsoft's Java efforts? 
24			A	No.  I think it's Ben Slivka's group. 
25			Q	And he is a Microsoft group; right? 
	1			A	Yes.  He's part of Microsoft but not
	2	all of Microsoft. 
	3			Q	So you would interpret this that he is
	4	working with Paul Maritz to set up a two- to
	5	three-hour review for you of part of Microsoft's Java
	6	efforts but not all of Microsoft's Java efforts; is
	7	that what you're saying? 
	8			A	Yeah.  The work his group is doing. 
	9			Q	The work his group is doing on Java;
10	right? 
11			A	Right. 
12			Q	Okay. 
13				And he lists what he describes as some
14	pretty pointed questions that you, Mr. Gates, had
15	about Java. 
16				Do you see that? 
17			A	Well, I'm not sure those are the
18	pointed questions.  It says, "I want to make sure I
19	understand your issues/concerns."
20			Q	Well, that's actually the last part of
21	a sentence that begins, quote:  
22				   "When I met with you last,
23			 you had a lot of pretty pointed
24			 questions about Java, so I want to
25			 make sure I understand your
	1			 issues/concerns."
	2				That's what the sentence says; correct,
	3	sir? 
	4			A	Right. 
	5			Q	And when Mr. Slivka says "I met with
	6	you last," he's talking about you, Mr. Gates; correct
	7	sir? 
	8			A	Yes. 
	9			Q	And when he says, "You had a lot of
10	pretty pointed questions about Java," he's again
11	talking about you, Mr. Gates; correct? 
12			A	Right. 
13			Q	And then he lists what he refers to as
14	a start:  
15				   "1.  What is our business
16			 model for Java?  
17				   "2.  How do we wrest control
18			 of Java away from Sun?"
19				Do you see that? 
20			A	Uh-huh. 
21			Q	Sometime prior to April 14, 1997, had
22	you conveyed to Mr. Slivka that one of your pointed
23	questions about Java was, quote, "How do we wrest
24	control of Java away from Sun?"
25			A	I don't think I would have put it that
	1	way.  Certainly was an issue about the popularity of
	2	Sun's runtime APIs versus our runtime APIs.  
	3		   Q	Is it your testimony that you didn't
	4	raise the question of "How do we wrest control of
	5	Java away from Sun?" with Mr. Slivka? 
	6		   A	I'll say again, I doubt I used words
	7	like that.  But there certainly was an issue of the
	8	popularity of our runtime APIs versus runtime APIs. 
	9		   Q	Just so that the record's clear.  I'm
10	not asking you about whether there was a question
11	about the popularity of your runtime APIs or their
12	runtime APIs.  What I'm asking is whether you told
13	him in words or in substance that you wanted to know
14	how Microsoft could wrest control or get control of
15	Java away from Sun.
16			MR. HEINER:  Objection.  Asked and
17	answered twice.
18			MR. BOIES:  I think he said he didn't
19	remember using those words.  What I now want to try
20	to find out is whether he used those words or
21	conveyed that substance.
22			MR. HEINER:  And he doesn't remember
23	using those words.
24			MR. BOIES:  And I'm asking him whether
25	he conveyed that in words or in substance.
	1				MR. HEINER:  He testified as to
	2	substance.
	3				MR. BOIES:  I don't believe he did. 
	4	But I'm in any event putting the question to the
	5	witness. 
	6				THE WITNESS:  I don't remember anything
	7	about "control" as a word or in substance.  But there
	8	was an issue about the popularity of our runtime APIs
	9	versus Sun's runtime APIs. 
10			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  I take it you know 
11	Mr. Slivka? 
12			A	Uh-huh. 
13			Q	You've got to answer "yes" or "no"
14	audibly so the reporter can take it down. 
15			A	Yes. 
16			Q	And you believe him to be a person of
17	competence and integrity? 
18			A	Yes. 
19			Q	Do you have any reason to believe that
20	he would have misstated what you told him when you
21	met with him last before April 14, 1997? 
22				MR. HEINER:  Objection.  
23				THE WITNESS:  In no way does this
24	purport to be a restatement of things I said to Ben
25	Slivka. 
	1			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Well, Mr. Gates, what
	2	this memorandum says is, quote, 
	3					   "When I met with you last,
	4				you had a lot of pretty pointed
	5				questions about Java, so I want to
	6				make sure I understand your issues
	7				and concerns."
	8					   "Here's a start, can you
	9				please add any that I'm missing?"
10					And then he lists six, the second of
11	which is, "How do we wrest control of Java away from
12	Sun?"
13					You see that in the exhibit, do you
14	not, sir? 
15			A	Uh-huh, yes. 
16			Q	Let me ask you to look at a document
17	that has been previously marked as Government Exhibit
18	373.  It's a one-page exhibit and the second item on
19	the page is a message from you to Paul Maritz dated
20	June 16, 1997, on the subject of, quote, "Java
21	schism," close quote.                
22					(The document referred to was marked as
23	Government Exhibit 373 for identification and is
24	attached hereto.)
25			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Did you send this
	1	message, Mr. Gates? 
	2			A	I don't remember it.  But I don't have
	3	any reason to doubt that I did. 
	4			Q	What did you mean by, quote, "Java
	5	schism," close quote? 
	6			A	I think the e-mail speaks for itself. 
	7			Q	The e-mail may very well speak for
	8	itself.  But what I want to know is --
	9			A	I could have written a mail that says, 
10					   "A point that is important
11				to me is to have PURE JAVA
12				applications that do a lot HAVE to
13				ship a full runtime instead of being
14				able to count on the runtime being
15				shipped with the operating system,"
16				and so on. 
17			Q	Maybe my question wasn't clear.  What
18	I'm trying to get you to do is to tell me what you
19	meant by the term "Java schism." 
20			A	It's a heading for this piece of
21	e-mail.  The e-mail is the communication, not the
22	heading. 
23			Q	I understand that, sir.  But what I'm
24	asking is:  You chose the heading, did you not, sir? 
25			A	It appears I typed that. 
	1			Q	Right.  And why did you choose this
	2	heading for this memo?  What were you meaning to
	3	convey by the term "Java schism"? 
	4			A	Exactly what I put into the message. 
	5			Q	Well, sir, what did you mean by
	6	"schism"? 
	7			A	It explains that in the message. 
	8			Q	I'm asking you to explain it in your
	9	words what you mean by the word "schism." 
10			A	I'm drawing a distinction between pure
11	Java apps and where they get their runtime bits. 
12			Q	And is that the schism that you're
13	referring to? 
14			A	That's what this e-mail is about, and
15	that's -- and I titled it "Java schism" when I wrote
16	that e-mail.  And the question is:  "How do pure Java
17	applications get their runtime bits?"
18			Q	Could you read that answer back,
19	please? 
20				(Answer read.)
21			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  What is on the two sides
22	of the schism, Mr. --
23			A	The bits you get from the browser, the
24	bits you get elsewhere.  And the mail couldn't be
25	clearer.  It's asking about two sources of the bits. 
	1	You can get bits from the browser, you can get bits
	2	somewhere else. 
	3			Q	Okay. 
	4				Now, where else can you get the bits? 
	5			A	They can ship with the application. 
	6			Q	And why was it important to you to have
	7	pure Java applications that have the characteristics
	8	that you described in here? 
	9			A	I didn't want to have to have the
10	browser get so large that it would have all the
11	runtime bits for all the applications. 
12			Q	And so where would the bits be? 
13			A	With the application. 
14			Q	And what you're saying is that it's
15	important to you that Microsoft develop pure Java
16	applications that have a lot of bits in them so that
17	those bits don't have to be in the browser.  Is that
18	the case? 
19			A	No.  It doesn't say anything about
20	Microsoft developing pure Java applications. 
21			Q	You're right, it doesn't. 
22			A	And it's clearly not about that. 
23			Q	What is it about then, sir? 
24			A	It's about pure Java applications in
25	general. 
	1			Q	Did you believe that it was desirable
	2	to have as many pure Java applications as possible? 
	3			A	It has nothing to do with this e-mail. 
	4	The answer is no.  But if you think it has something
	5	to do with this e-mail, you're -- that's incorrect. 
	6			Q	Okay.  I think that it may or may not
	7	be productive for you to speculate as to what I
	8	think.  What I am trying to do is I'm trying to get
	9	your testimony about this e-mail and about your views
10	of Java more generally. 
11			A	I thought so. 
12			Q	And first let me ask a general
13	question, and that is:  Did you believe that from
14	Microsoft's standpoint it was desirable to have as
15	many pure Java applications as possible? 
16			A	We weren't focused on that as a goal,
17	no. 
18			Q	In fact, is it fair to say that you
19	preferred fewer pure Java applications to more pure
20	Java applications? 
21			A	We preferred more applications that
22	took advantage of our APIs, and so we worked with
23	ISVs to maximize the number that took advantage of
24	our APIs. 
25			Q	And your APIs were not pure Java APIs;
	1	correct? 
	2			A	No.  Some were, and some weren't. 
	3			Q	Yes, sir, some were, and some weren't. 
	4				But the APIs that you wanted people to
	5	use were APIs that were not pure Java APIs; correct,
	6	sir? 
	7			A	No.  We were glad to have people use
	8	both.  
	9			Q	Were you indifferent as to whether they
10	used your pure Java APIs or your proprietary APIs? 
11				MR. HEINER:  Objection.  
12				THE WITNESS:  You've introduced the
13	word proprietary, and that completely changes the
14	question.  So help me out, what do you want to know?  
15			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Is the term "proprietary
16	API" a term that you're familiar with, sir? 
17			A	I don't know what you mean by it. 
18			Q	Is it a term you're familiar with in
19	your business? 
20			A	I really don't know what you mean.  You
21	mean an API that you have a patent on? 
22			Q	Mr. Gates, is the term "proprietary
23	API" a term that is commonly used in your business? 
24			A	Let me give you --
25			Q	All I'm trying to do --
	1			A	-- the common meanings that those words
	2	could have.  And then you can pick one of them, and
	3	ask me a question about it.  
	4			Q	No.  All I need --              
	5			A	Just -- you want me to define
	6	"proprietary API" or not? 
	7			Q	No, I don't want you to define
	8	"proprietary API."  I didn't ask you to define
	9	proprietary API.  I asked you a simple question
10	whether the term "proprietary API" was commonly used
11	in your business.  
12				Now, I'm prepared to sit here as long
13	as you want to to answer questions that I haven't
14	asked.  But I have a certain number of questions that
15	I'm going to ask at the end of these other answers. 
16	Now, this is a simple question.  You can say "yes,"
17	"no," or "It is used in lots of different ways."  But
18	then I can choose what to follow up on.  Or you can
19	simply make whatever statements you want, and I'll go
20	back to my question afterwards.
21				MR. HEINER:  The witness is simply
22	trying to help you through a difficult subject
23	matter.  That's all that's happening.  It's not
24	offensive.
25				MR. BOIES:  It is not offensive.  But
	1	all I am saying is with due respect, this witness's
	2	efforts do not help me clarify difficult subjects.
	3				MR. HEINER:  They could help.  But go
	4	ahead and read the question one more time, or state
	5	it again and he can answer it.  
	6				MR. BOIES:  Okay. 
	7			Q	Is the term "proprietary API" a term
	8	that is commonly used in your business? 
	9			A	I don't know how common it is.  It has
10	many different meanings. 
11			Q	Is it a term that you have used in your
12	business? 
13			A	Sometimes. 
14			Q	Okay.  Now, is it fair to say that when
15	you use the term "proprietary APIs" sometimes you
16	mean one thing and sometimes you mean something else? 
17			A	That's right. 
18			Q	Would you give me the different
19	meanings that you sometimes ascribe to the term
20	"proprietary APIs" when you use that term? 
21			A	It can mean an API that only happens to
22	be available from one company.  It can mean an API
23	that for some reason related to intellectual property
24	can only be available from one company, and, of
25	course, that's never a black and white thing.  It can
	1	mean an API that somebody's chosen not to take to a
	2	standards body.  Those are three different things you
	3	might mean by it. 
	4			Q	I just want to be sure that the answer
	5	is clear. 
	6				I'm not asking what I might mean by it
	7	or what a person might mean by it.  What I'm trying
	8	to do is get you to tell me meanings that you ascribe
	9	to that term when you use it. 
10			A	I've used all three of those. 
11			Q	Okay. 
12				Are there other meanings that you have
13	ascribed to the term "proprietary API" in your use of
14	that term? 
15			A	Not that I can think of right now. 
16			Q	Okay.  
17				Now, with respect to the API in
18	Windows, there are both Java APIs and non-Java APIs;
19	is that fair? 
20			A	I hate to tell you this, but what you
21	mean by "Java" there is subject to massive ambiguity. 
22			Q	Let me try to put the question this
23	way:  In Windows there are pure Java APIs, there are
24	impure Java APIs, and there are APIs that have
25	nothing to do with Java; is that fair? 
	1			MR. HEINER:  Objection.  I guess at
	2	this point I'll have to say that if we're going to
	3	talk about pure Java APIs, you'll have to take the
	4	time to go down that path as well, which I know
	5	you're happy to do of defining what that term means.
	6			MR. BOIES:  I mean what the witness
	7	meant when he wrote this e-mail on June 16, 1997.
	8			MR. HEINER:  Fine. 
	9			THE WITNESS:  I don't see anything
10	about APIs. 
11		   Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Do you see "PURE 
12	JAVA" --
13		   A	Yeah.  But I don't see APIs. 
14		   Q	-- in capital letters? 
15			And I can spend as much time as we have
16	to on this.  I think it shouldn't be necessary, but
17	if we have to, we will.
18			MR. HEINER:  Mr. Boies, the difficulty
19	is -- I don't mean to be at all rude, but it's 
20	partly -- you know, it's partly the complexity of the
21	subject matter and the difficulty you're having in
22	posing these questions.  Java is a complex subject.
23			MR. BOIES:  Java is a complex subject. 
24	But when somebody talks about pure Java APIs, I don't
25	think that that is something that the witness can't
	1	answer. 
	2				THE WITNESS:  But you said that the
	3	e-mail talks about pure Java API.  And it doesn't.
	4				MR. BOIES:  No.  I said pure Java. 
	5				THE WITNESS:  No.  You said APIs. 
	6			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Mr. Gates, let me ask a
	7	question.  If you can't answer the question, you
	8	can't answer the question. 
	9				Does Windows include pure Java APIs? 
10			A	There's a -- in some versions of
11	Windows there are some Java runtime APIs which at one
12	time Sun labeled as pure Java APIs. 
13				Subsequently they changed in a way that
14	was not upwards compatible, so it's actually kind of
15	confusing. 
16			Q	Does Windows have any APIs that you
17	would consider to be pure Java APIs? 
18			A	Today? 
19			Q	Yes. 
20			A	Yeah.  I guess the AWT 1.1 stuff you
21	might think of that way. 
22			Q	Anything else? 
23			A	I don't know what you mean "anything
24	else."  Are we enumerating? 
25			Q	Any other API in Windows that you would
	1	consider to be pure Java APIs, Mr. Gates? 
	2			A	I know there's more.  I don't know the
	3	technical names for them. 
	4			Q	And does Microsoft have a version of
	5	Java that is not what you refer to in your memo as
	6	pure Java? 
	7			A	I have no idea what you mean by that
	8	question. 
	9			Q	Okay. 
10				Does Windows include APIs that are
11	written in what is described as a form or version of
12	Java but not pure Java? 
13			A	Are you talking about the language? 
14			Q	If you don't understand the question,
15	Mr. Gates, you can simply say you don't understand
16	the question. 
17			A	Okay.  I'm sorry.  I don't understand
18	the question. 
19			Q	Good.  Okay.  That's what I'm trying to
20	do.  What I'm trying to do is get on the record what
21	you say you understand and what you say you don't
22	understand.
23				MR. HEINER:  Any time that the witness
24	clearly indicates he doesn't understand the question
25	but doesn't preface it with the words "I don't
	1	understand the question."  If you want that 
	2	convention --
	3			MR. BOIES:  I do, because I don't want
	4	speeches as to what the witness does think if he
	5	simply doesn't understand the question.  
	6			THE WITNESS:  No.  But I was pointing
	7	out to you the part of the question that I didn't
	8	understand because it was ambiguous.
	9			MR. BOIES:  Would you read the answer
10	back, please, or the statement.  
11			(The following answer was read: 
12		   "A  Are you talking about the language?")
13			MR. BOIES:  No.  I'm not talking about
14	the language if by "the language," you mean all the
15	things that you said about the Java language when we
16	were talking about Java yesterday.  Now, let me go
17	back to me asking the questions, if I can. 
18		   Q	As part of an effort to take control of
19	Java away from Sun in the terms used by Mr. Slivka in
20	his memo with Mr. Gates -- to you dated April 14,
21	1997, did Microsoft make an effort to get people to
22	use a version of Java APIs that was not pure Java
23	APIs?
24			MR. HEINER:  Objection. 
25			THE WITNESS:  That's a very compound -- 
	1				I don't understand the question.
	2			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Okay.  
	3				In an attempt to, in Mr. Slivka's
	4	words, wrest control of Java away from Sun, did
	5	Microsoft make an effort to get programmers to write
	6	to APIs that could be used to run applications on
	7	Windows but not on all other operating systems to
	8	which a pure Java written program could be run? 
	9			A	I wouldn't say that was part of
10	anything to do with controlling Java.  But we do
11	promote the use of the unique Windows APIs. 
12			Q	And with respect to the unique Windows
13	APIs, are some of those APIs APIs that Microsoft
14	describes as Java APIs or has in the past? 
15			A	All of our APIs can be called from
16	Java.  So now I don't know what you mean by a Java
17	API.  Usually somebody would mean something that you
18	can only call from Java or something you can call
19	from Java whether you can call it from other
20	languages or not. 
21				Our APIs we make available to a broad
22	set of languages including Java but others as well. 
23			Q	Mr. Gates, you've been sued by Sun
24	Microsystems over Java, have you not? 
25			A	There's a lawsuit with Sun. 

Continued on page 2 of 4

Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company

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